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[epicSocialism4tw]

Originally Posted by dbfan4life

I agree with almost everything in your post. I think the biggest argument about Kobe for MVP has nothing to do with basketball. Everytime I mention Kobe here I have to run for cover.

There isnt another player who can singlehandedly destroy a double team like Bryant. He's the best scorer in the league right now. He also has the ability to be a top defender at his position and to dictate the flow of the game. BUT, his skills and abilities dont translate to wins consistently enough yet. When Bryant is able to will his team to victories and end up with a win % around .700, then he will be undeniably an MVP.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Originally Posted by Clockwork Orange

Care to place a friendly wager on that?

Giving Nash consecutive MVP's would place him historically ahead of guys like Shaq, Karl Malone, David Robinson, Olajuwon, Garnett, Iverson, Dr. J, Bob McAdoo, Oscar Robertson, Charles Barkley, etc, etc.

Does Nash belong in that company? I love the guy, but he's not in that class of player. I think that the media will look at this when they hand out the MVP.

Shaq has won the MVP once. Is Nash a historically more important player than Shaq?

[GonzoLays]

Originally Posted by Rulon Velvet Jones

"Dirt Notwiztski averages less than nine rebounds a game and stands over seven feet. He shoots less than 50% from the field. He is a terrible defender that barely averages a block per game and his two assissts per game shows that he doesn't make his teammates better. And you call this guy the MVP? Please."

Sounds like a better way to argue than to just spout off crap like this.

The reason you don't use statistics (or do use statistics) is to make Dirk look better for example:

Originally Posted by RVJ

Amare averaged less than 9 last season. Gasol is less than 9. Elton Brand is near 10. Dirk plays the 4, not the center position. It's not up to him to grab all the rebounds each game.

Here you are trying to quantify Dirk's ****yness at rebounding by showing other ****y rebounders besides the MVP Elton Brand who averages over 10 boards a game a while Dirk cannot even get 9 boards a game. They do play the same position.

Now here you show other ****y shooters to help Dirks lets than 50% shooting ass:

Originally Posted by RVJ

Billups is shooting 41%, Kobe at 45.

Then you give an OPINION on Dirks terrible defense. You WOULD USE STATISTICS HERE but you can't because, well .69 steals and 1 block per game don't help you in your arguement:

Originally Posted by RVJ

He is not a terrible defender. Mix in a game and review your point. Copying what you've heard others in the media say doesn't make it your point. I don't understand where that comes from.

I'll make sure to pop in tape and watch Dirk shutdown defenders left and right as soon as I can. Who knew he was such a beast on D?

So in the end RVJ the reasons you don't rely (or do rely) on stats to back up your points is because Dirk does not stand out in one statistical category like most MVPs do. You better believe if Dirk averaged 12 rebounds a game or 30 pts per contest you would be pimpin' that to no end.

[cutthemdown]

Kobe is great on offense. defense and team needs him the most to win. He's having the best year of any player and leads nba in scoring. Kobe is hands down the best player in the NBA right now he just isnt loved.

[Rulon Velvet Jones]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

Kobe is great on offense. defense and team needs him the most to win. He's having the best year of any player and leads nba in scoring. Kobe is hands down the best player in the NBA right now he just isnt loved.

It may have something to do with the fact that he raped all those people.

[ludo21]

Originally Posted by Rulon Velvet Jones

It may have something to do with the fact that he raped all those people.

what!!!!

it might, just might have been 1 girl, and thats still not fact. Ill trust his word until proven otherwise.

I have no doubt athletes cheat on their spouses, but to say they rape people is ludicrous!

[ludo21]

Originally Posted by angryllama

Giving Nash consecutive MVP's would place him historically ahead of guys like Shaq, Karl Malone, David Robinson, Olajuwon, Garnett, Iverson, Dr. J, Bob McAdoo, Oscar Robertson, Charles Barkley, etc, etc.

Does Nash belong in that company? I love the guy, but he's not in that class of player. I think that the media will look at this when they hand out the MVP.

Shaq has won the MVP once. Is Nash a historically more important player than Shaq?

No he isnt, but this isnt back then, this is now. In the NOW he is the Most VALUABLE player to his team, not the BEST player, but the most valuable!

[epicSocialism4tw]

Originally Posted by ludo21

No he isnt, but this isnt back then, this is now. In the NOW he is the Most VALUABLE player to his team, not the BEST player, but the most valuable!

I dont know if I agree with that. Nash has some really good players on his team. His second star player is far better than anything that Dirk plays with.

Marion is a super player. He's better all-around than Josh Howard who is Dallas' #2 guy.

Nash also plays with Raja Bell, who is a better two guard than any 2 guard on the Dallas roster. And Boris Diaw who is a talented passer, scorer, and a very intelligent player. Kurt Thomas is a nice player and is comparable to what Dallas has at center.

There is a misnomer that Nash makes all of those players good, but they are all talented players in their own right. I'm not saying that Nash doesnt make the thing run smoothly, but he doesnt make those players more talented. D'Antoni has to take some of the credit for that. The Suns' floor spacing and offensive scheme is the best in the NBA and disciplined.

[Rulon Velvet Jones]

Originally Posted by GonzoLays

The reason you don't use statistics (or do use statistics) is to make Dirk look better for example:



Here you are trying to quantify Dirk's ****yness at rebounding by showing other ****y rebounders besides the MVP Elton Brand who averages over 10 boards a game a while Dirk cannot even get 9 boards a game. They do play the same position.

Now here you show other ****y shooters to help Dirks lets than 50% shooting ass:



Then you give an OPINION on Dirks terrible defense. You WOULD USE STATISTICS HERE but you can't because, well .69 steals and 1 block per game don't help you in your arguement:



I'll make sure to pop in tape and watch Dirk shutdown defenders left and right as soon as I can. Who knew he was such a beast on D?

So in the end RVJ the reasons you don't rely (or do rely) on stats to back up your points is because Dirk does not stand out in one statistical category like most MVPs do. You better believe if Dirk averaged 12 rebounds a game or 30 pts per contest you would be pimpin' that to no end.

Do you even read what you quote? I specifically picked out other potential MVP candidates and compared Dirk to them, via your love of bring up stats.

More stats to help Dirk's cause for a defensive improvement (because we all LOVE STATS so much!) - Who are the best defenders in the league, per every day discussion? Let's go with Ron Artest and Bruce Bowen. Artest has 2 steals a game and .75 blocks (if you can measure that). Bowen is less than 1 in each category.

And as far as Dirk not standing out in one statistical category - you may be right. He's among the top in several. Something only guys like Lebron and Billups can claim.

[montrose]

Melo - No player outside Kobe means more to his team. Also, the most clutch player in the league.

[ludo21]

Originally Posted by angryllama

I dont know if I agree with that. Nash has some really good players on his team. His second star player is far better than anything that Dirk plays with.

Marion is a super player. He's better all-around than Josh Howard who is Dallas' #2 guy.

Nash also plays with Raja Bell, who is a better two guard than any 2 guard on the Dallas roster. And Boris Diaw who is a talented passer, scorer, and a very intelligent player. Kurt Thomas is a nice player and is comparable to what Dallas has at center.

There is a misnomer that Nash makes all of those players good, but they are all talented players in their own right. I'm not saying that Nash doesnt make the thing run smoothly, but he doesnt make those players more talented. D'Antoni has to take some of the credit for that. The Suns' floor spacing and offensive scheme is the best in the NBA and disciplined.

O i agree, they are all very good.

But Nash makes them look GREAT!

Diaw is good, Bell is a super reach on ur part.

Marion is a stud, the February he had was incredible!

[epicSocialism4tw]

This is how I see it. There are 5 guys in consideration, and three of those guys are legit because they contribute to wins, are the focal point of their team, and contribute outstanding statistics.

Here they are

1) Nowitzki
2) James
3) Nash

then
4) Bryant
5) Billups

[ludo21]

Originally Posted by angryllama

This is how I see it. There are 5 guys in consideration, and three of those guys are legit because they contribute to wins, are the focal point of their team, and contribute outstanding statistics.

Here they are

1) Nowitzki
2) James
3) Nash

then
4) Bryant
5) Billups

1. Nash
2. Dirk
3. James/Kobe - they are in the same catergory to me
5. Billups - team is soo good, he wont get enough respect.

[Rulon Velvet Jones]

Originally Posted by montrose

Melo - No player outside Kobe means more to his team. Also, the most clutch player in the league.

You probably shouldn't be in here.

[epicSocialism4tw]

O i agree, they are all very good.

But Nash makes them look GREAT!

Are they really "great"? I dont think that they are among the league's top teams...especially going into the playoffs with a losing record (right now 8-9).

There are 3 great teams this season. Detroit, Spurs, and Dallas. Everyone else is along for the ride.

[ludo21]

Originally Posted by angryllama

Are they really "great"? I dont think that they are among the league's top teams...especially going into the playoffs with a losing record (right now 8-9).

There are 3 great teams this season. Detroit, Spurs, and Dallas. Everyone else is along for the ride.

we will see my friend, we will see.

Last year Suns werent supposed to get as far as they did either, or force Spurs to 6 or was is 7 games?

Should be fun.

Dont forget the Heat either.

[RhymesayersDU]

Originally Posted by angryllama

Giving Nash consecutive MVP's would place him historically ahead of guys like Shaq, Karl Malone, David Robinson, Olajuwon, Garnett, Iverson, Dr. J, Bob McAdoo, Oscar Robertson, Charles Barkley, etc, etc.

Does Nash belong in that company? I love the guy, but he's not in that class of player. I think that the media will look at this when they hand out the MVP.

Shaq has won the MVP once. Is Nash a historically more important player than Shaq?

I think this is the best argument I've read or heard for why Nash shouldn't be MVP. I wouldn't put him in that class of players. But, at the same time, you don't hand out awards based on the past, you do it based on the present, and presently, Nash has kept the Suns good without their star player, when everybody left them for dead.

I think that if there is an argument to be made against Steve Nash, this is the best one... but I still give him the nod, personally.

[GonzoLays]

Originally Posted by Rulon Velvet Jones

Do you even read what you quote? I specifically picked out other potential MVP candidates and compared Dirk to them, via your love of bring up stats.

I would hardly call Pau Gasol and Amare Stoudamire MVP canidates.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Originally Posted by RhymesayersDU

I think this is the best argument I've read or heard for why Nash shouldn't be MVP. I wouldn't put him in that class of players. But, at the same time, you don't hand out awards based on the past, you do it based on the present, and presently, Nash has kept the Suns good without their star player, when everybody left them for dead.

I think that if there is an argument to be made against Steve Nash, this is the best one... but I still give him the nod, personally.

You have this argument, and the argument that his team isnt as competitive as the league's best trio. Right now, Phoenix is 7 1/2 games back of Dallas, 8 1/2 back of the Spurs, and 11 1/2 back of Detroit. They are far off of the WC pace, and even further back of the league pace. Do you give a guy historical significance from a season where his team is so far back off of the pace, and has such little chance of making waves against the top teams in the playoffs?

They are 1-2 against Dallas, 0-2 against Detroit, and 1-3 against SA. A combined 2-7 against the big three.

[Rulon Velvet Jones]

Originally Posted by GonzoLays

I would hardly call Pau Gasol and Amare Stoudamire MVP canidates.

You think if Amare played all of this year that he wouldn't have been a candidate? And Gasol is an All-Star and was mentioned in early season MVP discussions. They're also used as a comparison to those that play the same position as Dirk.

[ludo21]

Originally Posted by angryllama

You have this argument, and the argument that his team isnt as competitive as the league's best trio. Right now, Phoenix is 7 1/2 games back of Dallas, 8 1/2 back of the Spurs, and 11 1/2 back of Detroit. They are far off of the WC pace, and even further back of the league pace. Do you give a guy historical significance from a season where his team is so far back off of the pace, and has such little chance of making waves against the top teams in the playoffs?

They are 1-2 against Dallas, 0-2 against Detroit, and 1-3 against SA. A combined 2-7 against the big three.

there ya go again on predicting playoff outcomes...........

If MVP award was given for the full season, rather than just the Reg. Season, u may have an argument, but it just ISNT!

[epicSocialism4tw]

Originally Posted by ludo21

there ya go again on predicting playoff outcomes...........

If MVP award was given for the full season, rather than just the Reg. Season, u may have an argument, but it just ISNT!

I'm using regular season results to show how Phoenix compares to the other winning teams. They really dont have much ground to stand on because the other three are so much better than they are. So say its predicting playoffs, or ignoring regular season or whatever, but ultimately we are looking at Phoenix's team in comparison to the best. Are they as good as Detroit? No. Are they as good as Dallas? No. Are they as good as SA? No.

How do I come to that conclusion? Regular season outcomes of head-to-head games and team win/loss records. Both of those factors say that Pheonix is not in the same category of team as the others.

In comparison, Detroit is 3-1 against Dallas and SA. 1-1 v Dallas, 2-0 v. SA.
Dallas is 3-3. 1-1 v. Detroit, 2-2 v. SA.
SA is 2-4. 2-2 v. Dallas, 0-2 v. Detroit.

[RhymesayersDU]

Originally Posted by angryllama

You have this argument, and the argument that his team isnt as competitive as the league's best trio. Right now, Phoenix is 7 1/2 games back of Dallas, 8 1/2 back of the Spurs, and 11 1/2 back of Detroit. They are far off of the WC pace, and even further back of the league pace. Do you give a guy historical significance from a season where his team is so far back off of the pace, and has such little chance of making waves against the top teams in the playoffs?

They are 1-2 against Dallas, 0-2 against Detroit, and 1-3 against SA. A combined 2-7 against the big three.

Those stats don't lie; however, even if they're some games back, I would keep Phoenix in that class of teams.

As I see it, in the west, the tiers are as follows:

spurs/mavs/suns

clips/grizz/nugs

lakers/kings/jazz

everybody else

While you're right that they might not have that good of a record, I still would group Phoenix in the tier of great teams in the west. Yeah they've lost some games, but I still think they can compete with the top teams.

And in fact, you could even flip that argument around, saying that Nash has kept them within 10 games of Dallas and San Antonio, again, without Amare.

[ludo21]

Originally Posted by RhymesayersDU

Those stats don't lie; however, even if they're some games back, I would keep Phoenix in that class of teams.

As I see it, in the west, the tiers are as follows:

spurs/mavs/suns

clips/grizz/nugs

lakers/kings/jazz

everybody else

While you're right that they might not have that good of a record, I still would group Phoenix in the tier of great teams in the west. Yeah they've lost some games, but I still think they can compete with the top teams.

And in fact, you could even flip that argument around, saying that Nash has kept them within 10 games of Dallas and San Antonio, again, without Amare.

Come playoff time MVP will be behind us, then we will see who the best teams are.

I agree that Suns werent up to par during the reg season, but in the playoffs, anything and everything will happen!

[Clockwork Orange]

Originally Posted by angryllama

Giving Nash consecutive MVP's would place him historically ahead of guys like Shaq, Karl Malone, David Robinson, Olajuwon, Garnett, Iverson, Dr. J, Bob McAdoo, Oscar Robertson, Charles Barkley, etc, etc.

Does Nash belong in that company? I love the guy, but he's not in that class of player. I think that the media will look at this when they hand out the MVP.

Shaq has won the MVP once. Is Nash a historically more important player than Shaq?

So because he doesn't belong in that class of players historically he doesn't deserve the MVP award for what he's done this year? That's ridiculous. What he's done previously or what he does in the future is irrelevant, the MVP award is about this particular year and Nash is the most deserving player.

Nash was the MVP last year, he's the MVP this year. The voters won't give a rip about historical context.