Remember the good ole days .......Like the Crusades ? - The Orange Mane

Spider · 03-22-2006, 05:25 PM

Brings a tear to your eye remembring how they used to do it ...........
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...093921,00.html

Europe

The Times March 20, 2006

Vatican change of heart over 'barbaric' Crusades
From Richard Owen in Rome
THE Vatican has begun moves to rehabilitate the Crusaders by sponsoring a conference at the weekend that portrays the Crusades as wars fought with the “noble aim” of regaining the Holy Land for Christianity.

The Crusades are seen by many Muslims as acts of violence that have underpinned Western aggression towards the Arab world ever since. Followers of Osama bin Laden claim to be taking part in a latter-day “jihad against the Jews and Crusaders”.

The late Pope John Paul II sought to achieve Muslim- Christian reconciliation by asking “pardon” for the Crusades during the 2000 Millennium celebrations. But John Paul’s apologies for the past “errors of the Church” — including the Inquisition and anti-Semitism — irritated some Vatican conservatives. According to Vatican insiders, the dissenters included Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI.

Pope Benedict reached out to Muslims and Jews after his election and called for dialogue. However, the Pope, who is due to visit Turkey in November, has in the past suggested that Turkey’s Muslim culture is at variance with Europe’s Christian roots.

At the conference, held at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical University, Roberto De Mattei, an Italian historian, recalled that the Crusades were “a response to the Muslim invasion of Christian lands and the Muslim devastation of the Holy Places”.

“The debate has been reopened,” La Stampa said. Professor De Mattei noted that the desecration of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem by Muslim forces in 1009 had helped to provoke the First Crusade at the end of the 11th century, called by Pope Urban II.

He said that the Crusaders were “martyrs” who had “sacrificed their lives for the faith”. He was backed by Jonathan Riley-Smith, Dixie Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Cambridge University, who said that those who sought forgiveness for the Crusades “do not know their history”. Professor Riley-Smith has attacked Sir Ridley Scott’s recent film Kingdom of Heaven, starring Orlando Bloom, as “utter nonsense”.

Professor Riley-Smith said that the script, like much writing on the Crusades, was “historically inaccurate. It depicts the Muslims as civilised and the Crusaders as barbarians. It has nothing to do with reality.” It fuels Islamic fundamentalism by propagating “Osama bin Laden’s version of history”.

He said that the Crusaders were sometimes undisciplined and capable of acts of great cruelty. But the same was true of Muslims and of troops in “all ideological wars”. Some of the Crusaders’ worst excesses were against Orthodox Christians or heretics — as in the sack of Constantinople in 1204.

The American writer Robert Spencer, author of A Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam, told the conference that the mistaken view had taken hold in the West as well as the Arab world that the Crusades were “an unprovoked attack by Europe on the Islamic world”. In reality, however, Christians had been persecuted after the Muslim conquest of Jerusalem.

CONFLICT OVER THE HOLY LAND
# Historians count eight Crusades, although dates are disputed: 1095-1101, called by Pope Urban II; 1145-47, led by Louis VII; 1188-92, led by Richard I; 1204, which included the sack of Constantinople; 1217, which included the conquest of Damietta; 1228-29 led by Frederick II; 1249-52, led by King Louis IX of France; and 1270, also under Louis IX

# Until the early 11th century, Christians, Jews and Muslims coexisted under Muslim rule in the Holy Land. After growing friction, the first Crusade was sparked by ambushes of Christian pilgrims going to Jerusalem. The Byzantine Emperor Alexius appealed to Pope Urban II, who in 1095 called on Christendom to take up arms to free the Holy Land from the “Muslim infidel”

L.A. BRONCOS FAN · 03-22-2006, 08:29 PM

Sorta puts the Xian fundies' constant denunciations and denigrations of Muslims in a whole 'nother perspective, don't it?

Atlas · 03-22-2006, 09:03 PM

The Crusades were horrible. Alot of it was the Church wanting to take lands from the Muslims and a lot of it was that Europe was in relative peace afetr decades of war. Many Knights had nothing to do and the Kings wanted these people out of their countries so sending them on thhe crusades was a good way to get rid of them.

Some of the worst atrocities commited were against the Jews that these Christians encountered. Although they both had a hatred for Islam the Christians more times than not killed any Jews they came across. It was really a horrific time.

All in the name of God

Garcia Bronco · 03-22-2006, 09:20 PM

But didn't the Muslims take the land from them first?

Garcia Bronco · 03-22-2006, 09:24 PM

" Christians had been persecuted after the Muslim conquest of Jerusalem."
This is exactly what I was taught in elementary school.

Atlas · 03-22-2006, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

" Christians had been persecuted after the Muslim conquest of Jerusalem."
This is exactly what I was taught in elementary school.

So after hundreds of years. It's OK for the Christians to do the same thing to the Muslim people that had nothing to do with it in the first place

Broncos Rule · 03-23-2006, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

But didn't the Muslims take the land from them first?

Well, not really. The Romans nominally controlled the area for centuries, and when the Roman Emperor Constantine established Christianity as one of the state religions in the 4th century, it could be said that the holy lands were under Christian government for a time.

But then Rome fell - mostly due to erosion of the tax base. The holy lands were abandoned - as was most of the rest of the empire.

All of this happened before Mohammed was even born. So, when the muslim armies moved in and "conquered th holy lands", they were taking them away from a bunch of goat herders - followers of various religions.

alkemical · 03-23-2006, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

" Christians had been persecuted after the Muslim conquest of Jerusalem."
This is exactly what I was taught in elementary school.

the white man has persecuted the blacks and indians.....

Garcia Bronco · 03-23-2006, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlas

So after hundreds of years. It's OK for the Christians to do the same thing to the Muslim people that had nothing to do with it in the first place

Yes and no...it doesn't make it okay for the Christians to do it...nor is it right for the muslims to b**** about it.

Garcia Bronco · 03-23-2006, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amesj523

the white man has persecuted the blacks and indians.....

What do you mean?

alkemical · 03-23-2006, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

What do you mean?

well if believe tit for tat - then the blacks and indians should be getting their retribution-on here soon.......

RaiderH8r · 03-23-2006, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amesj523

well if believe tit for tat - then the blacks and indians should be getting their retribution-on here soon.......

The moors terrorized and persecuted Southern Europeans for centuries, maybe the whole slave thing was karmic realignment. As for Indians, we may have one coming, but they're making a killing off the casinos so...

alkemical · 03-23-2006, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaiderH8r

The moors terrorized and persecuted Southern Europeans for centuries, maybe the whole slave thing was karmic realignment. As for Indians, we may have one coming, but they're making a killing off the casinos so...

I doubt it, since southern europe, hell - the world ignores africa unless it needs some rocks for some jewlery (paid in blood), or some oil.

RaiderH8r · 03-23-2006, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amesj523

I doubt it, since southern europe, hell - the world ignores africa unless it needs some rocks for some jewlery (paid in blood), or some oil.

Mostly rocks. We blow up the ME for oil.

But yes, the Moors did invade southern Europe. Good, bad, whatever, it is what it is. Nature, from time to time, corrects its imbalances through a violent upheavel followed by relative calm. Such is life.

alkemical · 03-23-2006, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaiderH8r

Mostly rocks. We blow up the ME for oil.

But yes, the Moors did invade southern Europe. Good, bad, whatever, it is what it is. Nature, from time to time, corrects its imbalances through a violent upheavel followed by relative calm. Such is life.

there is no realitive calm......

RaiderH8r · 03-23-2006, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amesj523

there is no realitive calm......

Calm relative to the upheaval.

alkemical · 03-23-2006, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaiderH8r

Calm relative to the upheaval.

nah, there's always strife and unrest somewhere - you just may not see it on your tv screen.

RaiderH8r · 03-23-2006, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amesj523

nah, there's always strife and unrest somewhere - you just may not see it on your tv screen.

Well yeah, my point is that it fluctuates. Peaks and valleys.

alkemical · 03-23-2006, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaiderH8r

Well yeah, my point is that it fluctuates. Peaks and valleys.

see i don't view it that way - i think it's constant no matter what.

elsid13 · 03-23-2006, 03:27 PM

I currently reading a great book about this subject called "Warriors of god" by James Reston. Lots of good nuggets of information about the acts on both sides. Like everything there in real life there are no clear black/white actions, just a lot of grey. Highly recommend the book if you are interested.

Garcia Bronco · 03-23-2006, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amesj523

well if believe tit for tat - then the blacks and indians should be getting their retribution-on here soon.......

What does that have to do with religion and war for land? I think you suffer from guilt. Brother...you don't owe anybody anything except the people directly in your life and the ones that love you.

alkemical · 03-23-2006, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

What does that have to do with religion and war for land? I think you suffer from guilt. Brother...you don't owe anybody anything except the people directly in your life and the ones that love you.

you had mentioned about a tit for tat comment and i followed.

I don't have guilt brother, and you of all people should know that about me by now.

Spider · 03-24-2006, 06:36 PM

No one made the connection , remember when Bush called his war on terrorism a crusade ? It was no slip of the tounge ..........

elsid13 · 03-24-2006, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by §Pide®

No one made the connection , remember when Bush called his war on terrorism a crusade ? It was no slip of the tounge ..........

Some folks made it, and didn't it go over in Middle East, where Saladin, Sultan that united the Muslin world and drove out the crusaders, is still a culture folk hero. Once again this White House not thinking before it talks, SEE Old Europe as an Example

Spider · 03-24-2006, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elsid13

Some folks made it, and didn't it go over in Middle East, where Saladin, Sultan that united the Muslin world and drove out the crusaders, is still a culture folk hero. Once again this White House not thinking before it talks, SEE Old Europe as an Example

I agree with all of that , but here is what I am shooting for ..................

9-11 happens , Bush mentions crusades , then retracts , and said this isnt a holy war , but didnt dispell the notion of, Islam bad , they hate our way of life , they want to take our liberty , Now this...... Crusades , a misunderstood war , could it be a call to battle to Christians ? a new crusade ? we are seeing the roots of it here at home and the radical christian movment into our goverment ........
Iraq war is losing steam , most see the Iraqi war for what it is , revenge ..........

03-22-2006, 05:25 PM	#1
Spider Mr Diplomacy I survived Tebow Mania at the Mane Join Date: May 2001 Location: Elway was just an arm =MacGruder Posts: 84,438 Adopt-a-Bronco: Von Miller	Remember the good ole days .......Like the Crusades ? Brings a tear to your eye remembring how they used to do it ........... http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...093921,00.html Europe The Times March 20, 2006 Vatican change of heart over 'barbaric' Crusades From Richard Owen in Rome THE Vatican has begun moves to rehabilitate the Crusaders by sponsoring a conference at the weekend that portrays the Crusades as wars fought with the “noble aim” of regaining the Holy Land for Christianity. The Crusades are seen by many Muslims as acts of violence that have underpinned Western aggression towards the Arab world ever since. Followers of Osama bin Laden claim to be taking part in a latter-day “jihad against the Jews and Crusaders”. The late Pope John Paul II sought to achieve Muslim- Christian reconciliation by asking “pardon” for the Crusades during the 2000 Millennium celebrations. But John Paul’s apologies for the past “errors of the Church” — including the Inquisition and anti-Semitism — irritated some Vatican conservatives. According to Vatican insiders, the dissenters included Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI. Pope Benedict reached out to Muslims and Jews after his election and called for dialogue. However, the Pope, who is due to visit Turkey in November, has in the past suggested that Turkey’s Muslim culture is at variance with Europe’s Christian roots. At the conference, held at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical University, Roberto De Mattei, an Italian historian, recalled that the Crusades were “a response to the Muslim invasion of Christian lands and the Muslim devastation of the Holy Places”. “The debate has been reopened,” La Stampa said. Professor De Mattei noted that the desecration of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem by Muslim forces in 1009 had helped to provoke the First Crusade at the end of the 11th century, called by Pope Urban II. He said that the Crusaders were “martyrs” who had “sacrificed their lives for the faith”. He was backed by Jonathan Riley-Smith, Dixie Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Cambridge University, who said that those who sought forgiveness for the Crusades “do not know their history”. Professor Riley-Smith has attacked Sir Ridley Scott’s recent film Kingdom of Heaven, starring Orlando Bloom, as “utter nonsense”. Professor Riley-Smith said that the script, like much writing on the Crusades, was “historically inaccurate. It depicts the Muslims as civilised and the Crusaders as barbarians. It has nothing to do with reality.” It fuels Islamic fundamentalism by propagating “Osama bin Laden’s version of history”. He said that the Crusaders were sometimes undisciplined and capable of acts of great cruelty. But the same was true of Muslims and of troops in “all ideological wars”. Some of the Crusaders’ worst excesses were against Orthodox Christians or heretics — as in the sack of Constantinople in 1204. The American writer Robert Spencer, author of A Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam, told the conference that the mistaken view had taken hold in the West as well as the Arab world that the Crusades were “an unprovoked attack by Europe on the Islamic world”. In reality, however, Christians had been persecuted after the Muslim conquest of Jerusalem. CONFLICT OVER THE HOLY LAND # Historians count eight Crusades, although dates are disputed: 1095-1101, called by Pope Urban II; 1145-47, led by Louis VII; 1188-92, led by Richard I; 1204, which included the sack of Constantinople; 1217, which included the conquest of Damietta; 1228-29 led by Frederick II; 1249-52, led by King Louis IX of France; and 1270, also under Louis IX # Until the early 11th century, Christians, Jews and Muslims coexisted under Muslim rule in the Holy Land. After growing friction, the first Crusade was sparked by ambushes of Christian pilgrims going to Jerusalem. The Byzantine Emperor Alexius appealed to Pope Urban II, who in 1095 called on Christendom to take up arms to free the Holy Land from the “Muslim infidel”

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03-22-2006, 08:29 PM	#2
L.A. BRONCOS FAN Mo' holla fo' yo' dolla! Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: In a bunker in an undisclosed location Posts: 52,694	Sorta puts the Xian fundies' constant denunciations and denigrations of Muslims in a whole 'nother perspective, don't it?

03-22-2006, 09:03 PM	#3
Atlas Draft Defense Early&Often Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 18,526	The Crusades were horrible. Alot of it was the Church wanting to take lands from the Muslims and a lot of it was that Europe was in relative peace afetr decades of war. Many Knights had nothing to do and the Kings wanted these people out of their countries so sending them on thhe crusades was a good way to get rid of them. Some of the worst atrocities commited were against the Jews that these Christians encountered. Although they both had a hatred for Islam the Christians more times than not killed any Jews they came across. It was really a horrific time. All in the name of God

03-22-2006, 09:20 PM	#4
Garcia Bronco Hokie since 1993 Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 45,991 Adopt-a-Bronco: Tom Jackson	But didn't the Muslims take the land from them first?

03-22-2006, 09:24 PM	#5
Garcia Bronco Hokie since 1993 Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 45,991 Adopt-a-Bronco: Tom Jackson	" Christians had been persecuted after the Muslim conquest of Jerusalem." This is exactly what I was taught in elementary school.

03-23-2006, 03:27 PM	#20
elsid13 Lost In Space Bóg, Honor, Ojczyzna Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: DC Posts: 19,081	I currently reading a great book about this subject called "Warriors of god" by James Reston. Lots of good nuggets of information about the acts on both sides. Like everything there in real life there are no clear black/white actions, just a lot of grey. Highly recommend the book if you are interested.

03-24-2006, 06:36 PM	#23
Spider Mr Diplomacy I survived Tebow Mania at the Mane Join Date: May 2001 Location: Elway was just an arm =MacGruder Posts: 84,438 Adopt-a-Bronco: Von Miller	No one made the connection , remember when Bush called his war on terrorism a crusade ? It was no slip of the tounge ..........