What would a REAL Christian do?

[BroncoBuff]

I'm always struck by the seeming sincerity of GW bowing his head and squeezing his eyes shut when he prays. But has he ever actually read the New Testamant? I mean REALLY READ the gospels?! Whichever Gospels - the "Big Four," the gnostic gospels, Enoch, Thomas ? ?

I don't pretend to be a "good" Christian. But I definitely have read all these gospels, and one thing's for sure:

JESUS WAS A PACIFIST.

If you are truly a Christian ... if you actually read Matthew's beatitudes or "render unto Caesar," or "the plank in your own eye," or "offer him the other cheek," or "he who is without sin" ... if you TRULY READ THESE LESSONS and TRULY BELIEVE JESUS CHRIST IS YOUR SAVIOUR ..... You simply cannot believe in any war. In fact, you barely believe in self defense!

I'm not saying W is not a Christian, he's just a Christian who doesn't carefully read and live the words and teachings of Jesus Christ. A Christian who prefers to make secular political policy without much true contemplation toward WWJD.

I struggle with my faith, as I'm sure most everyone does. But I DO KNOW what Jesus said. I know WWJD when confronted with an option to use military force.

[Smiling Assassin27]

Sorry, your case for Jesus being a pacifist has lots of problems.

First, was Jesus a pacifist when he fashioned a whip out of cords and violently drove the money changers from the temple? No.

Second, when Roman centurions were being healed and such, they asked him what they had to do to inherit eternal life and he did NOT say 'Renounce your military career since all war is wrong.'

Third, when he's being beaten during his Passion, he says, 'if i am wrong or have committed some crime, then bear witness to the wrong; but if i am right, why do you strike me? ' In essence he was saying that unprovoked violence against someone is what is wrong.

Fourth, in Luke, He tells his disciples to sell their coat and buy a sword if they do not have one. Why is this? Probably because he wanted them to be able to defend themselves.

Fifth, he used parables that were about war and even said he came not for peace but for war. Would he use these parables and words as teachings if he strictly forbade war in every case?

Sixth, John the Baptist, while signalling Christ's coming, didn't tell ROman soldiers to stop being soldiers. He told them to not extort from others and to be satisfied with their wages.

There's a time for martyrdom and a time for legitimate defense. Waging war unprovoked is not Christian. But Jesus was far from a pacifist and did not teach that we are to lie down in all cases.

As for Bush, i don't recall him claiming to hear voices or anything and have no reason to doubt the genuineness of his spirituality. The war, IMO, was not justified but I've seen reasonable arguments that it meets a just war criteria.

[Spider]

Originally Posted by Smiling Assassin27

As for Bush, i don't recall him claiming to hear voices or anything and have no reason to doubt the genuineness of his spirituality. The war, IMO, was not justified but I've seen reasonable arguments that it meets a just war criteria.

you dont remember Bush saying God told him to end tyranny in Iraq ? it was all over Yahoo news

[BroncoBuff]

Originally Posted by Smiling Assassin27

Sorry, your case for Jesus being a pacifist has lots of problems.

First, was Jesus a pacifist when he fashioned a whip out of cords and violently drove the money changers from the temple? No.

Second, when Roman centurions were being healed and such, they asked him what they had to do to inherit eternal life and he did NOT say 'Renounce your military career since all war is wrong.'

Third, when he's being beaten during his Passion, he says, 'if i am wrong or have committed some crime, then bear witness to the wrong; but if i am right, why do you strike me? ' In essence he was saying that unprovoked violence against someone is what is wrong.

Fourth, in Luke, He tells his disciples to sell their coat and buy a sword if they do not have one. Why is this? Probably because he wanted them to be able to defend themselves.

Fifth, he used parables that were about war and even said he came not for peace but for war. Would he use these parables and words as teachings if he strictly forbade war in every case?

Sixth, John the Baptist, while signalling Christ's coming, didn't tell ROman soldiers to stop being soldiers. He told them to not extort from others and to be satisfied with their wages.

There's a time for martyrdom and a time for legitimate defense. Waging war unprovoked is not Christian. But Jesus was far from a pacifist and did not teach that we are to lie down in all cases.

As for Bush, i don't recall him claiming to hear voices or anything and have no reason to doubt the genuineness of his spirituality. The war, IMO, was not justified but I've seen reasonable arguments that it meets a just war criteria.

I don't doubt his spiritual belief either, I just think he's substituted secular policy IN PLACE OF LIVING those ideals (the strange part is - most liberals like me say his policy and religion are TOO COMBINED, while I believe just the opposite.)

A couple things quick:

1. Soldiers back then were similar to police now.... (your second and sixth)
2. You quote others than Jesus.... (John)
3. Your Third - the quote from the passion - your "in essence" doesn't logically follow as an "exclusive" disapproval ... or a "limitation" upon what he disapproved of...
4. Your fourth - he didn't mean a literal sword!!!!!!!!!! Read closer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And your "First" is the standard response I always get when I make this point. It's true, he drove the merchants out with violence. But he just wanted to MOVE them .... he had no intent to harm or injure.

If you really want to say Jesus was NOT a pacifist, though ... have at it.

[BroncoBuff]

And what about the quotes I made:

Matthew's beatitudes .....
"Render unto Caesar" .....
"The plank in your own eye" .....
"Offer him the other cheek".....
"He who is without sin" ...

Those are direct quotes that require no parsing of his intent.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by §Pide®

you dont remember Bush saying God told him to end tyranny in Iraq ? it was all over Yahoo news

Talk about a convenient memory lapse, eh?

And if Bush is a real Xian then I'm the Easter Bunny.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff1

I'm always struck by the seeming sincerity of GW bowing his head and squeezing his eyes shut when he prays. But has he ever actually read the New Testamant? I mean REALLY READ the gospels?! Whichever Gospels - the "Big Four," the gnostic gospels, Enoch, Thomas ? ?

Anyone who is familiar with Bush's bio knows the Christianity thing is a big charade dating back to Resident Chucklenuts' first Texas gubernatorial campaign (when Rove convinced him that the way to win was to cultivate an image that would play to the evangelicals.)

Bush himself admited at one point "I'm just a media creation."

[Play2win]

Religon causes Wars, Faith creates Fellowships...

[bendog]

Too bad God didn't also tell Bushii that to control the Iraqis it'll probably be necessary to have torture rooms and be prepared to kill somewhere around 100K of them.

[Smiling Assassin27]

Originally Posted by §Pide®

you dont remember Bush saying God told him to end tyranny in Iraq ? it was all over Yahoo news

No, can you please post a link? Preferrably not from your beloved 'alternative news' sites. I recall a certain person claiming he heard Bush say these things but alas, not a single quotation from Bush on hearing God's voice. In fact, all we have from the horse's mouth is a pretty strong denial.

[Spider]

Originally Posted by Smiling Assassin27

No, can you please post a link? Preferrably not from your beloved 'alternative news' sites. I recall a certain person claiming he heard Bush say these things but alas, not a single quotation from Bush on hearing God's voice. In fact, all we have from the horse's mouth is a pretty strong denial.

Nope Iam on dial up searching old stories takes for ever , and to be honest I dont give a damn what you believe to go through that aggravation .......fact is Bush said it ...........

[Rascal]

Originally Posted by §Pide®

Nope Iam on dial up searching old stories takes for ever , and to be honest I dont give a damn what you believe to go through that aggravation .......fact is Bush said it ...........

Quoting you "if you dont wantto waste your time , then quit posting stuff as fact when you know they aint ......."

In regards to Clinton selling nuclear secrets to China.

Pot meet kettle.

[Spider]

Originally Posted by Rascal

Quoting you "if you dont wantto waste your time , then quit posting stuff as fact when you know they aint ......."

In regards to Clinton selling nuclear secrets to China.

Pot meet kettle.

still sore over me ripping your links apart I see ....... but the problem is , Bush did say this ........ and you got pissed when I used it as a joke against Christians and Bush .........Maybe next time Kiddo

[Smiling Assassin27]

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff1

I don't doubt his spiritual belief either, I just think he's substituted secular policy IN PLACE OF LIVING those ideals (the strange part is - most liberals like me say his policy and religion are TOO COMBINED, while I believe just the opposite.)

A couple things quick:

1. Soldiers back then were similar to police now.... (your second and sixth)
2. You quote others than Jesus.... (John)
3. Your Third - the quote from the passion - your "in essence" doesn't logically follow as an "exclusive" disapproval ... or a "limitation" upon what he disapproved of...
4. Your fourth - he didn't mean a literal sword!!!!!!!!!! Read closer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And your "First" is the standard response I always get when I make this point. It's true, he drove the merchants out with violence. But he just wanted to MOVE them .... he had no intent to harm or injure.

If you really want to say Jesus was NOT a pacifist, though ... have at it.

You say Jesus wanted to 'move' them. I don't disagree. The point lies in the MEANS in which he moved them--through violent means. A pacifist would've verbally demanded they leave. Jesus didn't even give them a warning, he came in with whip-a-blazing. You say he had no intent to injure but this is adding to the text. If you would like to show me the text that says Jesus had no intent but went after them violently anyway, you have a big contradiction on your hands.

1. Soldiers were police, yes, but are you telling me that they did not fight wars? The fact that there were Christian-ONLY legions in the Roman army who actually saw combat action speaks volumes. Soldiers fight wars. Christians were soldiers and neither Christ nor a single Apostle told them they could not do so because they were followers of Christ.

2. I quote others than Jesus to prove a point. That the entirety of God's word must be taken into account, not just one or two lines of Scripture. In the context of the fullness of Scripture, your case of Jesus being a pacifist can't work. If you want to argue that John contradicted Jesus' teachings or that Paul (or any other disciple, for that matter) did, then give it a shot.

3. the words from the Passion are Christ's, not mine. he makes it clear that if he's innocent, then He shouldn't be getting the el-gabong to the head. See, Jesus was about justice, not pacifism.

4. he didn't mean a literal sword? then tell me what he meant? what's a figurative sword? is a figurative sword really a metaphor for 'pacifism'? the sword represents a legitimate use of force within Christian paramters. why don't you tell me what sword imagery means--if you believe it's really just imagery. i've seen this verse used to justify AK-47's on the streets, which also is ludicrous so please don't misunderstand what my point is, which is ONLY that Jesus was not a pacifist, in the sense you suggest. This Ghandian pacifism is NOT Christian. Do you think Jesus would've called up the Viceroy of India and told him 'Hitler is not a bad man' and suggest that England should accept Hitler's fate for them?

As for Bush, i don't think he met the standard for a just war in Iraq. As for judging him, I'll leave that to God and spider.

[Rascal]

Originally Posted by §Pide®

still sore over me ripping your links apart I see ....... but the problem is , Bush did say this ........ and you got pissed when I used it as a joke against Christians and Bush .........Maybe next time Kiddo

actually I haven't read your response to it.

And actually no I'm not pissed, I'm just pointing out your blantant hypocrisy.

[Smiling Assassin27]

Originally Posted by §Pide®

Nope Iam on dial up searching old stories takes for ever , and to be honest I dont give a damn what you believe to go through that aggravation .......fact is Bush said it ...........

forgive me if i call bull**** on this one...this new standard of making an assertion and then not even having to provide proof is kinda cool! this just in: pigs can fly.

[Spider]

Originally Posted by Rascal

actually I haven't read your response to it.

And actually no I'm not pissed, I'm just pointing out your blantant hypocrisy.

Blantant ? Lets see , there was an investigation over the secrets , No charges ....... You said No maybe to it ......... Bush tells everyone that God told him to rid the Iraq of tyranny , I know Bush said this , you didnt have afreaking clue about Clinton and China ....... see the difference yet ? or do I have to lead you by the hand step through step ?

[Antilles]

Originally Posted by §Pide®

Nope Iam on dial up searching old stories takes for ever , and to be honest I dont give a damn what you believe to go through that aggravation .......fact is Bush said it ...........

I'll misappropriate my high speed work account for ya. Note that this is all hearsay from the mouths of our trusted allies in Palestine. Still, I don't have too much trouble believing it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pre.../06/bush.shtml

[Spider]

Originally Posted by Smiling Assassin27

forgive me if i call bull**** on this one...this new standard of making an assertion and then not even having to provide proof is kinda cool! this just in: pigs can fly.

thats ok . I know maybe you can pray for enlightenment .......

[Rascal]

Originally Posted by §Pide®

Blantant ? Lets see , there was an investigation over the secrets , No charges ....... You said No maybe to it ......... Bush tells everyone that God told him to rid the Iraq of tyranny , I know Bush said this , you didnt have afreaking clue about Clinton and China ....... see the difference yet ? or do I have to lead you by the hand step through step ?

using your logic would send one to the outhouse instead of the barn.

I know Clinton sold secrets. You don't have a freaking clue about Bush and God. See the difference?

Typical Spider debate.

When you actually come up with something worthy of a response I'll chim in.

[Spider]

Originally Posted by Antilles

I'll misappropriate my high speed work account for ya. Note that this is all hearsay from the mouths of our trusted allies in Palestine. Still, I don't have too much trouble believing it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pre.../06/bush.shtml

thanks ....... try google Bush god speaks through me .......

[Spider]

Originally Posted by Rascal

using your logic would send one to the outhouse instead of the barn.

I know Clinton sold secrets. You don't have a freaking clue about Bush and God. See the difference?

Typical Spider debate.

When you actually come up with something worthy of a response I'll chim in.

well if you belong in the outhouse ............

[Spider]

;d

[Play2win]

Originally Posted by bendog

Too bad God didn't also tell Bushii that to control the Iraqis it'll probably be necessary to have torture rooms and be prepared to kill somewhere around 100K of them.

Oh, thats OK. But if you ever, ever dare to have an Abortion, YOU ARE A MURDERER !!!!

[BMF Bronco]

Originally Posted by Play2Win

Oh, thats OK. But if you ever, ever dare to have an Abortion, YOU ARE A MURDERER !!!!

Scott Peterson killed an unborn child and was found guilty for murdering that unborn child...