Government Regulations - The Orange Mane

smalltowngrll · 01-31-2006, 10:46 PM

This question arises from the Oil industry thread.

The topic came up about government regulating the big oil companies in how much they should be permitted to charge.

My question to you all is this....just what do you consder permissable for government regulations? Where do you draw the line as to what the government should and should not regulate?

I for one am of the camp that says the government should regulate as little as possible. Now, with that said, I do believe in a certain frame for government regulations but, I'm still not quite sure of just how much. I'd like to hear your thoughts and please back them up with reasons. This is quite an open topic as far as the "What" is concerned..but, I am curious.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN · 01-31-2006, 10:58 PM

It's the government's job to see that industries like Big Oil don't rip off American consumers, e.g., by manipulating supply, deliberately limiting refining capacity in order to drive prices up, etc. (which these companies have been caught doing repeatedly.)

If you or I, as private citizens, cheat or steal or defraud people then we are held accountable by the government, i.e., we get arrested, go to jail, pay a fine, or whatever.

Same thing should hold true for corporations.

They have a right to make a profit, but they should be subject to laws just like individuals.

The first American corporations had two rules designated by their charters:

1) Serve the public good

2) Do no harm to the community

These charters still exist, and they are legally binding.

W*GS · 01-31-2006, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN

It's the government's job to see that industries like Big Oil don't rip off American consumers, e.g., by manipulating supply, deliberately limiting refining capacity in order to drive prices up, etc. (which these companies have been caught doing repeatedly.)

If you or I, as private citizens, cheat or steal or defraud people then we are held accountable by the government, i.e., we get arrested, go to jail, pay a fine, or whatever.

Is supply manipulation the same as "cheat, steal or defraud"? What law was violated by such manipulations? Apple "manipulates" the supply of iPods - if they didn't, then I could buy one for much much less than the hundreds of dollars they charge.

Your economic knowledge is too limited - supply cannot (and should not) always increase to meet demand such that the resulting price is what some bureaucrats divine. I'd like to know how you would determine what that price is - the Soviets tried that, and it failed miserably.

Quote:

Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN

The first American corporations had two rules designated by their charters:
1) Serve the public good
2) Do no harm to the community

These charters still exist, and they are legally binding.

Like I've said before, it's a long way from those vague niceties to your ideology of suffocating State control of all manner of economic activity. Those two "rules" can be interepreted as nothing more than "don't break the law". They in no way mean "The State decides the price of a gallon of gas".

L.A. BRONCOS FAN · 01-31-2006, 11:20 PM

W*GS · 01-31-2006, 11:48 PM

Thanks for the spam, LABF.

DB-Freak · 01-31-2006, 11:53 PM

Oh the hilarity

L.A. BRONCOS FAN · 02-01-2006, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DB-Freak

Oh the hilarity

That's your contribution to the discussion?

No wonder people like Bush are able to bullsh*t the masses so easily.

Spider · 02-01-2006, 08:11 AM

Goverment Regulated Trucking , Jimmy Carter unregulated it . Trucking was a mess for many of years . to the point were Goverment had to step back in .CDL's D.O.T. pretty hard line stuff .....

L.A. BRONCOS FAN · 02-01-2006, 03:02 PM

How 'bout Enron?

If that whole mess doesn't convince you of the need for government regulation, then nothing will.

Of course, ol' Kenny Boy is probably breathing a big sigh of relief now that Alito is officially in.

Mile High Shack · 02-01-2006, 03:06 PM

amazingly enough Enron started their illegal practices during the Clinton administration

L.A. BRONCOS FAN · 02-01-2006, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mile High Shack

amazingly enough Enron started their illegal practices during the Clinton administration

Amazingly enough, Enron CEO Ken Lay was Bush's best friend and #1 campaign contributor and offered the boy king a lift to his coronation on the company's corporate jet.

Mile High Shack · 02-01-2006, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN

Amazingly enough, Enron CEO Ken Lay was Bush's best friend and #1 campaign contributor and offered the boy king a lift to his coronation on the company's corporate jet.

lol

I don't want to get into a spin argument with you, b/c you have spin down to an art

but the fact remains, Enron started their illegal accounting practices well before Bush took office

RaiderH8r · 02-01-2006, 03:16 PM

You could literally fill libraries with the amount of paper on regulation that exists currently pertaining to oil and gas exploration and production. SEC, FTC, CFTC, EPA, NEPA, FERC, BLM, F&W, BoR, Coast Guard, Port Authorities, Oil and Pipeline oversight, OSHA, Groundwater Protection Councils, State by State environmental review boards, Dept. of Int., Dept. of Energy, the list goes on and on.

Price caps discourage wise use and encourage waste. People can waste gas now by driving low mileage autos, but it comes at a premium. Price caps will encourage more people to waste because there is no financial disincentive not to.

The complexities of the oil and natural gas e&p industry are vast and very complicated and a wonderful case study in unintended consequences of government involvement in the free market system. You'll either get a spam war or intense debate. From the looks of it, I'm going with spam war at this point.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN · 02-01-2006, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mile High Shack

lol

I don't want to get into a spin argument with you, b/c you have spin down to an art

Spin?

You mean you're denying everything I just said about Bush and Lay?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mile High Shack

but the fact remains, Enron started their illegal accounting practices well before Bush took office

Yep - it took awhile for Enron's activities to come to light. Gotta give Lay credit for being a slick little weasel.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN · 02-01-2006, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaiderH8r

Price caps discourage wise use and encourage waste. People can waste gas now by driving low mileage autos, but it comes at a premium. Price caps will encourage more people to waste because there is no financial disincentive not to.

Price caps probably wouldn't be necessary if the FTC and some of the other agencies you just mentioned actually did their jobs, i.e., cracked down on supply manipulation, etc.

RaiderH8r · 02-01-2006, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN

Price caps probably wouldn't be necessary if the FTC and some of the other agencies you just mentioned actually did their jobs, i.e., cracked down on supply manipulation, etc.

Do you support energy conservation?

Mile High Shack · 02-01-2006, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN

Price caps probably wouldn't be necessary if the FTC and some of the other agencies you just mentioned actually did their jobs, i.e., cracked down on supply manipulation, etc.

price caps would create lines at the pump ala the late 70's

while it sucks paying over 2.00/gallon, at least we are not in crisis shortage mode

Mile High Shack · 02-01-2006, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN

Spin?

You mean you're denying everything I just said about Bush and Lay?

Yep - it took awhile for Enron's activities to come to light. Gotta give Lay credit for being a slick little weasel.

in truth it's not just enron, they just got busted the worst b/c they screwed their employees by having their employees keep investing their retirement into the company

a lot of companies were/are doing this..........and they all should be strung up by their testicles/ovaries

W*GS · 02-01-2006, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN

How 'bout Enron?

If that whole mess doesn't convince you of the need for government regulation, then nothing will.

Seeing as how Lay and Skilling are currently being prosecuted for violating the law, you can't claim that Enron is proof of the "need for government regulation". If there hadn't been any, they wouldn't be on trial.

Duh.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN · 02-01-2006, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaiderH8r

Do you support energy conservation?

Support and practice it.

Too bad the current administration does not.

RaiderH8r · 02-01-2006, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN

Support and practice it.

Too bad the current administration does not.

Then why are high energy prices a problem?

L.A. BRONCOS FAN · 02-01-2006, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mile High Shack

price caps would create lines at the pump ala the late 70's

I dunno...I'm not calling for price caps, but I think a government crackdown on supply manipulation and Enron-style practices would bring retail prices down significantly.

W*GS · 02-01-2006, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN

I dunno...I'm not calling for price caps, but I think a government crackdown on supply manipulation and Enron-style practices would bring retail prices down significantly.

And your evidence is....?

smalltowngrll · 02-01-2006, 03:38 PM

Looking at Government regulations from a Public Utility standpoint: The government (whether local or federal) regulates prices on many utility companies, ie power, natural gas, garbage, etc. Before a company can increase their rates, they must prove to the regulatory committee that they are losing money or have taken a big hit. Now, from my experience and what I've seen on a financial basis, heck...that's the business I want to be in! I have no competition and all I have to do is show a loss? Easy! Give bigger raises to my top execs (and myself of course) and buy more assets at higher prices. Sell them off when I want the cash and repurchase more at a later date for a large first year depreciation. That's government regulation! Some of the wealthiest companies are your government regulated companies.

Looking at the telecommunications debacle...the government broke up the communication companies, taxed the hell out of the consumer and the smaller companies that came about afterwards still have to go through the Big Guys. Yes, it helped in regulating the general prices, but it still isn't fixed.

Just my two cents at the moment....

L.A. BRONCOS FAN · 02-01-2006, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaiderH8r

Then why are high energy prices a problem?

Is that a rhetorical question or do you really need an answer?

High energy prices = inflation = slowing of economic growth.

Like it or not, until someone presents a viable alternative, our economy depends on oil and gas for everything from transport to supply lines to food production to plastics to pharmaceuticals to electricity generation.

02-01-2006, 03:16 PM	#13
RaiderH8r In The Bag Don't worry. Nobody's listening. Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Meth Alley Posts: 9,920 Adopt-a-Bronco: MethWolfe	You could literally fill libraries with the amount of paper on regulation that exists currently pertaining to oil and gas exploration and production. SEC, FTC, CFTC, EPA, NEPA, FERC, BLM, F&W, BoR, Coast Guard, Port Authorities, Oil and Pipeline oversight, OSHA, Groundwater Protection Councils, State by State environmental review boards, Dept. of Int., Dept. of Energy, the list goes on and on. Price caps discourage wise use and encourage waste. People can waste gas now by driving low mileage autos, but it comes at a premium. Price caps will encourage more people to waste because there is no financial disincentive not to. The complexities of the oil and natural gas e&p industry are vast and very complicated and a wonderful case study in unintended consequences of government involvement in the free market system. You'll either get a spam war or intense debate. From the looks of it, I'm going with spam war at this point. Last edited by RaiderH8r; 02-01-2006 at 03:20 PM..

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01-31-2006, 10:46 PM	#1
smalltowngrll Orange Blue Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bend, OR Posts: 8,038 Adopt-a-Bronco: dortoh	Government Regulations This question arises from the Oil industry thread. The topic came up about government regulating the big oil companies in how much they should be permitted to charge. My question to you all is this....just what do you consder permissable for government regulations? Where do you draw the line as to what the government should and should not regulate? I for one am of the camp that says the government should regulate as little as possible. Now, with that said, I do believe in a certain frame for government regulations but, I'm still not quite sure of just how much. I'd like to hear your thoughts and please back them up with reasons. This is quite an open topic as far as the "What" is concerned..but, I am curious.

01-31-2006, 10:58 PM	#2
L.A. BRONCOS FAN Mo' holla fo' yo' dolla! Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: In a bunker in an undisclosed location Posts: 52,694	It's the government's job to see that industries like Big Oil don't rip off American consumers, e.g., by manipulating supply, deliberately limiting refining capacity in order to drive prices up, etc. (which these companies have been caught doing repeatedly.) If you or I, as private citizens, cheat or steal or defraud people then we are held accountable by the government, i.e., we get arrested, go to jail, pay a fine, or whatever. Same thing should hold true for corporations. They have a right to make a profit, but they should be subject to laws just like individuals. The first American corporations had two rules designated by their charters: 1) Serve the public good 2) Do no harm to the community These charters still exist, and they are legally binding.

01-31-2006, 11:20 PM	#4
L.A. BRONCOS FAN Mo' holla fo' yo' dolla! Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: In a bunker in an undisclosed location Posts: 52,694

01-31-2006, 11:48 PM	#5
W*GS Ring of Famer Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Earth Posts: 19,510	Thanks for the spam, LABF.

01-31-2006, 11:53 PM	#6
DB-Freak The lone sack artist Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,995	Oh the hilarity

02-01-2006, 08:11 AM	#8
Spider Mr Diplomacy I survived Tebow Mania at the Mane Join Date: May 2001 Location: Elway was just an arm =MacGruder Posts: 84,438 Adopt-a-Bronco: Von Miller	Goverment Regulated Trucking , Jimmy Carter unregulated it . Trucking was a mess for many of years . to the point were Goverment had to step back in .CDL's D.O.T. pretty hard line stuff .....

02-01-2006, 03:02 PM	#9
L.A. BRONCOS FAN Mo' holla fo' yo' dolla! Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: In a bunker in an undisclosed location Posts: 52,694	How 'bout Enron? If that whole mess doesn't convince you of the need for government regulation, then nothing will. Of course, ol' Kenny Boy is probably breathing a big sigh of relief now that Alito is officially in.

02-01-2006, 03:06 PM	#10
Mile High Shack Ring of Famer Cock-a-doodle-do Join Date: May 2001 Location: Somewhere Posts: 17,010	amazingly enough Enron started their illegal practices during the Clinton administration

02-01-2006, 03:38 PM	#24
smalltowngrll Orange Blue Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bend, OR Posts: 8,038 Adopt-a-Bronco: dortoh	Looking at Government regulations from a Public Utility standpoint: The government (whether local or federal) regulates prices on many utility companies, ie power, natural gas, garbage, etc. Before a company can increase their rates, they must prove to the regulatory committee that they are losing money or have taken a big hit. Now, from my experience and what I've seen on a financial basis, heck...that's the business I want to be in! I have no competition and all I have to do is show a loss? Easy! Give bigger raises to my top execs (and myself of course) and buy more assets at higher prices. Sell them off when I want the cash and repurchase more at a later date for a large first year depreciation. That's government regulation! Some of the wealthiest companies are your government regulated companies. Looking at the telecommunications debacle...the government broke up the communication companies, taxed the hell out of the consumer and the smaller companies that came about afterwards still have to go through the Big Guys. Yes, it helped in regulating the general prices, but it still isn't fixed. Just my two cents at the moment....