FO gives props to Ash...

[Jesterhole]

Well, not really, just stating the facts. But still...nice turnaround for Lelie. People have started to dog him, but he's made some big plays lately.

"Ashley Lelie, Weeks 1-5: 11 receptions, 113 yards, only caught 31 percent of passes thrown to him. Ashley Lelie, Weeks 6-14: 22 receptions, 488 yards, caught 59 percent of passes thrown to him. NEXT: at BUF (Sat)"

[SoCalBronco]

When he has had those 5 for 50 yd. games, its "Ash cant stretch the Defense anymore". When he has the 3 for 85 yd. games, its "why cant Ash do the underneath stuff". Im sick and tired of Lelie haters on this board. He had that reverse to seal the game for us and he made a move (wait a minute, listening to this board, i would have thought he cant make a move on anyone) on Ed Reed to get to the sticks and we heard nothing about that all week long. Seriously, if the team ends up dealing him this offseason as has been rumored several times from several sources, I hope he has a bunch of 1500 yd. plus years to shove it in the fans' faces. People constantly underestimate how he aids our run game by forcing DCs into choosing 2 safety high defenses instead of consistently 1 safety high defenses.

[Play2win]

Originally Posted by Jesterhole

Well, not really, just stating the facts. But still...nice turnaround for Lelie. People have started to dog him, but he's made some big plays lately.

"Ashley Lelie, Weeks 1-5: 11 receptions, 113 yards, only caught 31 percent of passes thrown to him. Ashley Lelie, Weeks 6-14: 22 receptions, 488 yards, caught 59 percent of passes thrown to him. NEXT: at BUF (Sat)"

Do you think its just coincidence that they finally start throwing him some Slants or Crossing Patterns and all of a sudden he starts to get productive...

[WABronco]

Originally Posted by SoCalBronco

When he has had those 5 for 50 yd. games, its "Ash cant stretch the Defense anymore". When he has the 3 for 85 yd. games, its "why cant Ash do the underneath stuff". Im sick and tired of Lelie haters on this board. He had that reverse to seal the game for us and he made a move (wait a minute, listening to this board, i would have thought he cant make a move on anyone) on Ed Reed to get to the sticks and we heard nothing about that all week long. Seriously, if the team ends up dealing him this offseason as has been rumored several times from several sources, I hope he has a bunch of 1500 yd. plus years to shove it in the fans' faces. People constantly underestimate how he aids our run game by forcing DCs into choosing 2 safety high defenses instead of consistently 1 safety high defenses.

Deal him?!?!?!?!?

I guess I could see that, but we'd just be starting from scratch...again...

[Pendejo]

Originally Posted by SoCalBronco

When he has had those 5 for 50 yd. games, its "Ash cant stretch the Defense anymore". When he has the 3 for 85 yd. games, its "why cant Ash do the underneath stuff". Im sick and tired of Lelie haters on this board. He had that reverse to seal the game for us and he made a move (wait a minute, listening to this board, i would have thought he cant make a move on anyone) on Ed Reed to get to the sticks and we heard nothing about that all week long. Seriously, if the team ends up dealing him this offseason as has been rumored several times from several sources, I hope he has a bunch of 1500 yd. plus years to shove it in the fans' faces. People constantly underestimate how he aids our run game by forcing DCs into choosing 2 safety high defenses instead of consistently 1 safety high defenses.

I'm not speaking for anyone else...but what pisses me off about the guy is...he's an unbelievably graceful athlete...his ceiling is so ridiculously high, but he won't reach it. He wasn't born with the grit that less pure athletes are born with. Ashley's been able to coast. I don't think he's necessarily a puss, but you can't teach heart. Rod Smith has it. Ashley doesn't. Do any of you seriously believe that Rod Smith is on par with Lelie when it comes to pure physicals? Of course you don't. It's really not a knock on the guy...very few reach that plateau...and they my friends are legends.

[TD4HOF]

Originally Posted by Pendejo

I'm not speaking for anyone else...but what pisses me off about the guy is...he's an unbelievably graceful athlete...his ceiling is so ridiculously high, but he won't reach it. He wasn't born with the grit that less pure athletes are born with. Ashley's been able to coast. I don't think he's necessarily a puss, but you can't teach heart. Rod Smith has it. Ashley doesn't. Do any of you seriously believe that Rod Smith is on par with Lelie when it comes to pure physicals? Of course you don't. It's really not a knock on the guy...very few reach that plateau...and they my friends are legends.

That's a great post, man (agreed on legends and Rod Smith). But I dunno, it's still early. Midway through his 3rd season, he could still elavate to another level. What's amazing about this season is his QB hasn't given him a perfect longball all season. As a matter of fact, while I'm at it, that's what keeps Plummer from "MVP" status right now. If he would just freackin' hit Ashley in stride one of these days, our offense can ring it up. With the splendid rookie out, we need points. More of them.

[Taco John]

I personally like Ashley. I just don't think he's a great fit in this offense at this time. I don't think he and Plummer have much chemistry at all. I think it's both of their faults. Plummer needs a guy who can use his body strength to position himself and go after the ball. Ashley needs a guy who can hit him on the fly, while in stride and beating a safety deep. Neither of these guys seems to be able to deliver what the other needs on any type of a consistent basis.

I just think the Plummer/Lelie connection is forcing a round hole into a square peg. I think we'd be better off using him as part of a trade package that either moves us up, or gets us a player of equal promise (ala the Reuben Droughns trade)...

[Popps]

Originally Posted by Taco John

I personally like Ashley. I just don't think he's a great fit in this offense at this time. I don't think he and Plummer have much chemistry at all. I think it's both of their faults. Plummer needs a guy who can use his body strength to position himself and go after the ball. Ashley needs a guy who can hit him on the fly, while in stride and beating a safety deep. Neither of these guys seems to be able to deliver what the other needs on any type of a consistent basis.

Good assessment.

I'd much rather see us make a run at a guy like Reggie Wayne than continue trying to jam a square peg into a round hole. Lelie has speed and adequate hands, but he's not a physical receiver and he's not a precise route runner. I've never understood why we brought him in. Wayne would cost us... but he could come in and take over as a #1 receiver, taking some pressure off of Rod as he heads into the twilight of his career.

Imagine a WR corps with Wayne on one side, Smith on the other, and Devoe and Adams coming in on 3/4 WR sets.

[Broncoman13]

Originally Posted by SoCalBronco

When he has had those 5 for 50 yd. games, its "Ash cant stretch the Defense anymore". When he has the 3 for 85 yd. games, its "why cant Ash do the underneath stuff". Im sick and tired of Lelie haters on this board. He had that reverse to seal the game for us and he made a move (wait a minute, listening to this board, i would have thought he cant make a move on anyone) on Ed Reed to get to the sticks and we heard nothing about that all week long. Seriously, if the team ends up dealing him this offseason as has been rumored several times from several sources, I hope he has a bunch of 1500 yd. plus years to shove it in the fans' faces. People constantly underestimate how he aids our run game by forcing DCs into choosing 2 safety high defenses instead of consistently 1 safety high defenses.

Facts are facts and his production has dropped. You know me better than to think I'm an Ash hater. He's been one of my favs ever since he was drafted. I think he's a great player and we'd be foolish to let him go anywhere else... but again, facts are facts and he's not suited well in this offense with Jake at QB. Once again vs the Ravens Jake missed a wide open Ash 45 yards down field. This time (like a few others) he overthrew him. He hits him in stride or even puts a little air under the ball and Ash takes it to the house. We've had this speed demon for 3 years and have yet to see a QB hit him in stride and see those burners put to work. Truthfully, I think a change of scenery would be great for Ash. Imagine Ash in Philly or even Atlanta. Say what you like about Vick but his down field accuracy has improved a lot this year and he certainly has the arm strength to keep up with Ash's speed!

I know you like him a lot SoCal, and like I said I do too... but if the Texans were willing to give us Andre Johnson and a 2nd for Ash and our two firsts... would you do it?

[Pendejo]

Originally Posted by Taco John

I personally like Ashley. I just don't think he's a great fit in this offense at this time. I don't think he and Plummer have much chemistry at all. I think it's both of their faults. Plummer needs a guy who can use his body strength to position himself and go after the ball. Ashley needs a guy who can hit him on the fly, while in stride and beating a safety deep. Neither of these guys seems to be able to deliver what the other needs on any type of a consistent basis.

I just think the Plummer/Lelie connection is forcing a round hole into a square peg. I think we'd be better off using him as part of a trade package that either moves us up, or gets us a player of equal promise (ala the Reuben Droughns trade)...

I can't argue with your logic at all. I just think that if Lelie's want to was equal to his athletic ability...he'd fit in any system. Hell...Warrick Dunn is tiny...and he's been running hard for years...the difference is grit.

My point is Lelie has all the ability in the world...there's just something bred into guys like Ed McCaffery...and Rod Smith that makes them want more. Perhaps it's the lack of natural ability, but even when they reach all pro status they continue to clench their jaws and press on. If Lelie had that sensibility he would bury both of their careers. That's not a knock on Rod or Ed...it's the opposite...it goes to show just how hard it is to be a successful/great pro with limited god given ability. Ashley has it all...he's just timid.

[SoCalBronco]

Originally Posted by OSKIE

Facts are facts and his production has dropped. You know me better than to think I'm an Ash hater. He's been one of my favs ever since he was drafted. I think he's a great player and we'd be foolish to let him go anywhere else... but again, facts are facts and he's not suited well in this offense with Jake at QB. Once again vs the Ravens Jake missed a wide open Ash 45 yards down field. This time (like a few others) he overthrew him. He hits him in stride or even puts a little air under the ball and Ash takes it to the house. We've had this speed demon for 3 years and have yet to see a QB hit him in stride and see those burners put to work. Truthfully, I think a change of scenery would be great for Ash. Imagine Ash in Philly or even Atlanta. Say what you like about Vick but his down field accuracy has improved a lot this year and he certainly has the arm strength to keep up with Ash's speed!

I know you like him a lot SoCal, and like I said I do too... but if the Texans were willing to give us Andre Johnson and a 2nd for Ash and our two firsts... would you do it?

First of all, I wasnt referring to you as one of the Ash haters. Secondly, I DO agree that this offense does not seem tailor made for him. Nonetheless, I think he adds a valuable element in keeping that 2nd safety high and forcing the defense to keep only a manageable number of players around and inside of the box. He is important to our run offense in this respect. Regarding trades, it depends what kinds of offers would be on the table and it would require an analysis of whether a) the offer would provide Denver with more overall value than what Ash provides currently and b) whether Denver could immediately replace Ash's contribution as a deep threat and someone who forces defenses to devote resources over the top to the detriment of the run defense. Regarding your proposed trade, I dont think its realistic. Houston is not going to part with Johnson anytime soon under any scenario. He is probably their sole untouchable, especially since they hoodwinked his uncle and a UM law professor who served collectively as his "Agent" in negotiations into a more team-friendly contract than most 3rd overall picks recieve.

[Clockwork Orange]

Whoa, whoa, where is this idea of trading Lelie coming from? Who on earth thinks that's a good idea? Do we have some great WR depth that I'm not aware of? Are people that enamored with David Terrell?

Lelie hasn't measured up to last year, true, but that doesn't mean it's time to dump our #2 receiver and biggest deep threat. Especially when you consider that there's no one on the roster who can step in and fill his role, the free agent crop of receivers this offseason is weak and the receiver class in the upcoming draft is even weaker.

[TD4HOF]

He sticks if only for his deep threat. Hope for more to add on.

[watermock]

Here is the problem...for every long pass, we are seeing some pass miss Ash by ten yards, putting us in a bad situation...

When have you seen Jake looking at Ash in a critical third down? It simply doesn't exist...I'm not blaming Ash for our third down woes, but he's not a money man...Jake is looking Rod 1, Putz 2. period.

They simply don't have chemistry for whatever reason...even when they hook up, Lelie usually has to wait for the ball, or Jake simply overthrows him as Lelie expects an underthrow....It's baffling to me...I also agree that Lelie might not have the mental toughness or just that intangible that brings a man to the next level...

Now I'm not saying lelie is Jerry Rice in his prime, or Jake is Montana or Steve Young, but remember Rice getting that ball on the inside post IN STRIDE and turning on that hidden after burner to outrun the saftey?

Lelie NEVER gets the ball in stride...I think he runs sloppy routes quite honestly, and is soft...we sure as hell have nothing better at this point tho...I'm a huge DEVO fan, but he's still developing, and who knows about the Claw...Rod isn't getting any younger...

If I'm Bronco Billy, I get a FA WR...I have wanted Joe VeryVicious for years...I always thought he would be a good replacement for Floppy Ed...the draft has alot of good LT's you just can't get those guys on the FA market..you have to take one if a franchise one is there...I wish Washington would cooperate a bit more...

Midnight Rant over...well, I guess it's 3:20

[fontaine]

Unless Ash learns to run better routes, be more physical at the line of scrimmage and learns to setup and beat defenders with his moves instead of running sloppy routes it won't matter who's at QB.

Yes, hitting a WR in stride is great but for every play where the QB is called to hit a guy in stride like a crossing routes or deep ball there are plenty of routes like button hooks, slants etc that depend all on timing where the QB has to throw to a specific spot and Lelie simply isn't good enough or consistent enough to run those routes.

[watermock]

I totally agree...he has never learned discipline on routes...I think that's more of a problem than getting off the line...he's just a lazy route runner...you don't know where he will be...it's like chasing a rabbit...yeah, he's open, but where the hell is he going to be?

It's not hard to get open, it's hard to be AT THE RIGHT PLACE AT THE RIGHT TIME....

[elsid13]

My problem with Ash is not his play or his skills but rather how they (the coaching staff) use him. Before it was deep pass after deep pass. In the last couple of weeks they have gotten him the ball on slants and square outs. But the coach only run those plays once a game. Ash on slants could be great play for us but only if they use more the once a game. Plus if they want Ash to go deep shouldn't they be calling some 10 yard come backs?

[Mediator12]

Originally Posted by elsid13

My problem with Ash is not his play or his skills but rather how they (the coaching staff) use him. Before it was deep pass after deep pass. In the last couple of weeks they have gotten him the ball on slants and square outs. But the coach only run those plays once a game. Ash on slants could be great play for us but only if they use more the once a game. Plus if they want Ash to go deep shouldn't they be calling some 10 yard come backs?

They have used the come backs. Lelie made one on the TD drive at the 11.

I still think it is poor chemistry between Jake and Lelie. I have seen him throw to a spot on a stop route versus KC and Lelie was two yards off and Jake hit Warfield in the Hands but he dropped it. The deep balls are never where Lelie expects them to be. I really think Jake never looks his way unless he is the primary option on a play and even then he checks off more than throwing his way. They really do not look to be anywhere near the same page.

The same thing happens with Putzier too though. Unless He is wide open, Jake will look elsewhere. Even then, he sometimes throws and stops his momentum. Jeb is very good after the Catch BTW or He would have nowhere near the yards he does.

Let's face it. Jake is not a rythym passer. Never has been, never will be. He is able to hit WR's when they are open, but accuracy and threading the needle has never been a strength. Sure he can do it, just not consistently.

The passing game is an adventure in timing and route running for the Broncos. Even Rod struggles with this at least once a game. This is where the third down struggles are even more amplified.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Originally Posted by OSKIE

I know you like him a lot SoCal, and like I said I do too... but if the Texans were willing to give us Andre Johnson and a 2nd for Ash and our two firsts... would you do it?

How about AL and 1A for Johnson? The Texans 2nd is only going to be 3-4 spots lower than 1B. Those two picks pretty much wash out.

and I'm not suggesting a trade, just pointing out what the proposal boils down to.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Originally Posted by Clockwork Orange

Whoa, whoa, where is this idea of trading Lelie coming from? Who on earth thinks that's a good idea? Do we have some great WR depth that I'm not aware of? Are people that enamored with David Terrell?

I believe someone said Ashley is selling his house, so therefore he doesn't want to be here and will request a trade this offseason.

[meangene]

Originally Posted by fontaine

Unless Ash learns to run better routes, be more physical at the line of scrimmage and learns to setup and beat defenders with his moves instead of running sloppy routes it won't matter who's at QB.

Yes, hitting a WR in stride is great but for every play where the QB is called to hit a guy in stride like a crossing routes or deep ball there are plenty of routes like button hooks, slants etc that depend all on timing where the QB has to throw to a specific spot and Lelie simply isn't good enough or consistent enough to run those routes.

I absolutely agree. Lelie lacks toughness and desire. He will make some plays on sheer athletic ability but that's it. Jake doesn't look to him often because you never know where he's going to be. He doesn't run precise routes, can't get off of a jam and avoids contact. He's been chastised more than once for quitting on his routes. It's hard to establish timing with a guy like that. And, you can't count on him to go get the ball or fight off a defender. If he's not wide open throwing to him always risks an interception. Sorry, I think he's a one trick pony. We need the occasional deep threat this year but, I see us revamping the receiver corps next year. If we can get any reasonable value for him we should do it.

[RhymesayersDU]

I think Taco nailed it. I'm a huge Ash guy, I have his jersey, want to see him put up big numbers, etc. I get excited every time the ball even goes his way.

But with that said, he's simply not a fit for this offense. I'm convinced if he went to St. Louis, or Indy, or a place like that he very well could be a Pro-Bowler.

[defenseman]

I very sincerely question Shanahan's ability to draft a wide reciever who will "long term" stay with the team. Smith was a FA and worked his way up through the practice squad and into the starting lineup. Shanahan, I'm convinced takes a shot at a WR during the draft, but invariably and ultimately misses, and ends up releasing them two or three years later. Perhaps, it's his plan to pick up proven veterans (ie...Easy ED McCaffrey) who have the ability to no s*&t "block" in their offensive scheme. I do however wish the broncos could locate a solid WR in the draft as well as they can identify running backs. IF Lelie were to somehow live up to his potential with the Denver Broncos, I have no doubt they would be a much more potent offense than they are now. Moulds? I think not...the attitude is suspect for sure. I'm sure we'll go out and get some FA Wide recievers in the offseason, I'd bet Lelie is gone, and draft one prospect from the upcoming draft ...who will be released two or three years from now because they cannot block. One can only benefit from history if they study the shortcomings of the past, I do not believe shanahan has learned anything wrt drafting wide recievers from the college draft and how to identify a no kidding "hitter" for the broncos. ....dman

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller

I believe someone said Ashley is selling his house, so therefore he doesn't want to be here and will request a trade this offseason.

Would hate to see that with the thin FA and draft prospects at WR.

[yavoon]

Originally Posted by RhymesayersDU

I think Taco nailed it. I'm a huge Ash guy, I have his jersey, want to see him put up big numbers, etc. I get excited every time the ball even goes his way.

But with that said, he's simply not a fit for this offense. I'm convinced if he went to St. Louis, or Indy, or a place like that he very well could be a Pro-Bowler.

even if he's not a "fit" offenses need versatility, lining up w/ a big running game and a bunch of slow receivers isnt going to improve offensive production.

and yah he'd probably do great in st. louis. st. louis really relies on hitting fast ppl in stride to give their offense that scary dimension.