'God gave' Bush mission to invade Iraq and Afghanistan - The Orange Mane

Bronco_Beerslug · 10-06-2005, 05:59 PM

Oh Boy.

-----------------------------------------------------
GERRI PEEV

GEORGE Bush told Palestinian leaders that God had instructed him to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, according to a new BBC television series.

The revelation will be seized on by his detractors - at home and abroad - who fear that the president of the United States is waging a religious war in emulation of the Crusades.

His remarks are also bound to cause embarrassment for Tony Blair, his chief partner in the war on terror, who has sought to play down the religious tensions underscoring operations in the Middle East.

Mr Bush's remarks were made at a meeting with Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian prime minister, and his then foreign minister in June 2003.

Nabil Shaath, now the Palestinian information minister, revealed details of the conversation to the BBC3 programme Elusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs. "President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq ...' And I did."

The US leader had also said he felt "God's words coming to me" to "go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East. And, by God, I'm gonna do it." Mr Abbas, who was also at the meeting in the Egyptian resort of Sharm el-Sheikh, recounted Mr Bush saying: "I have a moral and religious obligation. So I will get you a Palestinian state."

During a speech to the National Endowment for Democracy yesterday, Mr Bush lashed out at Islamists, accusing militants of trying to "rally the Muslim masses" by trying to control Iraq to establish "a radical Islamic empire that spans from Spain to Indonesia".

The president has been under pressure to defend his Iraq policy after declining public support. Fears over the invasion could be further heightened by escalation of violence in the run-up to the 15 October referendum on a new constitution for Iraq.

Mr Bush also likened the ideology of Islamic militants to communism, accusing elements of the Arab news media of inciting antisemitism. "We are facing a radical ideology with immeasurable objectives to enslave whole nations and intimidate the world," he said.

The US would not relent until the terror networks were broken, the president said. He was

backed by his vice-president, Dick Cheney, who warned that the US would be committed to the war on terror for decades.

The revelation comes at a sensitive time as Iraqis prepare to go to the polls. Mr Blair yesterday met Jalal Talabani, the Iraqi prime minister, to discuss the security crisis. The Prime Minister confirmed remarks by an unnamed official that the government believed Iran was behind arming the insurgents attacking British troops.
http://tinyurl.com/7axch

elsid13 · 10-06-2005, 06:04 PM

Very bad for US image oversea from credible new source. And YES it does matter what we look like.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN · 10-06-2005, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronco_Beerslug

GEORGE Bush told Palestinian leaders that God had instructed him to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, according to a new BBC television series.

There's little difference between Bush and a psychotic patient in a mental hospital who claims God talks to him and directs his aberrant activities.

patteeu · 10-07-2005, 05:50 AM

Don't you have any better things for which to criticize Bush rather than rehashing old stories? This wasn't a very credible story the first time it was reported months ago, and I don't see that much has changed.

It's worth noting that Mahmoud Abbas doesn't confirm the story when given an opportunity.

elsid13 · 10-07-2005, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu

Don't you have any better things for which to criticize Bush rather than rehashing old stories? This wasn't a very credible story the first time it was reported months ago, and I don't see that much has changed.

It's worth noting that Mahmoud Abbas doesn't confirm the story when given an opportunity.

The major difference you're about to have the BBC do a show on it. Even if it is not true, the image that it portrays make easier for critics on war on terror to point to the US and say we’re no better that a@@hole living in a cave in Afghanistan. Modern War is much a media spin as anything else. Thanks to CNN new cycle. Allies are need and to win. We want to hunt this beasts down like dogs and we need folks turning them in and out into the streets.

Rohirrim · 10-07-2005, 06:11 AM

Bronco_Beerslug · 10-07-2005, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu

Don't you have any better things for which to criticize Bush rather than rehashing old stories? This wasn't a very credible story the first time it was reported months ago, and I don't see that much has changed.

It's worth noting that Mahmoud Abbas doesn't confirm the story when given an opportunity.

I find it absolutely believable considering Bush has stated he believes God put him in office for a specific purpose. And the comments are from the meeting minutes confirmed by others.

Quote:

The bishops of Bath and Wells, Oxford, Coventry, and Worcester, said in their report on countering terrorism: "There is no uniquely righteous nation. No country should see itself as the redeemer nation, singled out by God as part of his providential plan."

BurgundyNGold · 10-07-2005, 06:23 AM

Bush is a whack job, no doubt. But I'm not going to put a whole lot of stock into this accusation until it's picked up and confirmed by some other, more credbile news sources that news.scotsman.com. I mean, if this interview was supposedly on BBC3, why isn't the BBC reporting it?

Bronco_Beerslug · 10-07-2005, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BurgundyNGold

Bush is a whack job, no doubt. But I'm not going to put a whole lot of stock into this accusation until it's picked up and confirmed by some other, more credbile news sources that news.scotsman.com. I mean, if this interview was supposedly on BBC3, why isn't the BBC reporting it?

There's no way to confirm it, hearsay is hearsay but the series airs starting Monday.

-------------------------------------------------
The White House has dismissed as "absurd" allegations made in a BBC TV series that President Bush claimed God told him to invade Iraq.

"He's never made such comments," White House spokesman Scott McClellan said.

The comments were attributed to Mr Bush by the Palestinian negotiator Nabil Shaath in the upcoming TV series Elusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs.

Mr Shaath said that in a 2003 meeting with Mr Bush, the US president said he was "driven with a mission from God".

Holy war?

"President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan. And I did, and then God would tell me, George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq... And I did.

"'And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East. And by God I'm gonna do it.'"

Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas, who attended the meeting in June 2003 too, also appears on the documentary series to recount how Mr Bush told him: "I have a moral and religious obligation. So I will get you a Palestinian state."

The TV series charts recent attempts to bring peace to the Middle East, from former US President Bill Clinton's peace talks in 1999-2000 to Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip this year.

It seeks to uncover what happened behind closed doors by speaking to presidents and prime ministers, along with their generals and ministers.

The BBC Two series, Israel and the Arabs: Elusive Peace will be broadcast on Mondays from 10 October at 2100 BST.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4317498.stm

BurgundyNGold · 10-07-2005, 06:54 AM

Quote:

"President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan. And I did, and then God would tell me, George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq... And I did."

Who does he think he is? Elwood Blues?

patteeu · 10-07-2005, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elsid13

The major difference you're about to have the BBC do a show on it. Even if it is not true, the image that it portrays make easier for critics on war on terror to point to the US and say we’re no better that a@@hole living in a cave in Afghanistan. Modern War is much a media spin as anything else. Thanks to CNN new cycle. Allies are need and to win. We want to hunt this beasts down like dogs and we need folks turning them in and out into the streets.

So what do you suggest we do about it if it's not true? Should we get our panties in a bunch about it like LABF and Beerslug? The President, through his spokespeople, has denied it. We can't stop individuals from making up stories and we have very little power to keep the BBC from warming up a months-old story and broadcasting it again.

Hogan11 · 10-07-2005, 09:11 AM

You people are reading it all wrong.....when Bush refers to "God", he's really talking about Karl Rove.

patteeu · 10-07-2005, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronco_Beerslug

I find it absolutely believable considering Bush has stated he believes God put him in office for a specific purpose. And the comments are from the meeting minutes confirmed by others.

None of Bush's statements give any credibility to the claim that Bush makes decisions on the basis of commands he receives from God. It's not a secret that Bush is a religious guy, but how on earth do you get from that to believing he hears voices or that he doesn't use his own "God given" judgement when he makes decisions?

And let's have a link to those "others" who confirm the meeting minutes. The most significant possible "other," Abbas himself, had the opportunity to confirm the statement and failed to do so.

patteeu · 10-07-2005, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BurgundyNGold

Bush is a whack job, no doubt. But I'm not going to put a whole lot of stock into this accusation until it's picked up and confirmed by some other, more credbile news sources that news.scotsman.com. I mean, if this interview was supposedly on BBC3, why isn't the BBC reporting it?

BBC is indeed reporting this in the form of some kind of documentary, but the fact that they are reporting is that some palestinian propagandist named Nabil Shaath is making the statement. They aren't verifying that the statement is accurate.

Back in June, an Israeli newspaper reported something very similar based on minutes to a meeting between Bush and high level palestinian officials that they had received. It was not corroborated by any independent sources at the time and even if the minutes were real, they had gone through at least two translations before appearing in the newspaper. Abbas was present at that meeting, but he has never confirmed the report and his quote in the OP article still doesn't do so. You would think that he would have been asked to confirm such an interesting quote by either the Israeli newspaper or by the BBC, wouldn't you? I suspect the Abbas quote is closer to what was really said. If you compare the Nabil Shaath quote with the quote from the minutes published in the earlier Israeli newspaper article and the quote from Abbas, they are significantly different which points out how (a) memories and (b) translations can lead to misrepresentations even if there are no ill intentions involved.

Nabil Shaath

Quote:

Nabil Shaath, now the Palestinian information minister, revealed details of the conversation to the BBC3 programme Elusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs. "President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq ...' And I did."

The US leader had also said he felt "God's words coming to me" to "go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East. And, by God, I'm gonna do it."

Attributed to Mahmoud Abbas according to the minutes obtained by Haaretz

Quote:

Bush said: "God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."

Mahmoud Abbas directly quoted by the BBC

Quote:

I have a moral and religious obligation. So I will get you a Palestinian state.

As you can see, the first two quotes vary significantly. The third quote, which is the only direct quote from the main palestinian principal at the meeting is much more tame.

patteeu · 10-07-2005, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BurgundyNGold

Who does he think he is? Elwood Blues?

From NewChief at ChiefsPlanet:

BurgundyNGold · 10-07-2005, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu

As you can see, the first two quotes vary significantly. The third quote, which is the only direct quote from the main palestinian principal at the meeting is much more tame.

I'd have to agree with you that the Abbas quote from the BBC seems to be to only one remotely in line with Bush's character. The fact is that some people don't want peace over there. It sounds like Nabil Shaath is one of them. I'd can his *ss on general principle if I were Abbas.

epicSocialism4tw · 10-07-2005, 09:37 AM

You know, I am sorry that it has come to this.

You guy post this stuff as though it is truth and possibly rationalize even to yourselves how this is relevant news to us in America. You have a palestinian radical trying to rile up his comrades by shouting "Holy War!!!" to his choir.

What is more disturbing is how you guys use information that could potentially encourage more terrorism here just to make the point that you dont like Bush. Its irresponsible and immature.

Rohirrim · 10-07-2005, 10:33 AM

Woodward asked Bush why he didn't ask his father for advice and Bush answered, "I rely on the advice of a higher father."

Bronco_Beerslug · 10-07-2005, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu

None of Bush's statements give any credibility to the claim that Bush makes decisions on the basis of commands he receives from God. It's not a secret that Bush is a religious guy, but how on earth do you get from that to believing he hears voices or that he doesn't use his own "God given" judgement when he makes decisions?

And let's have a link to those "others" who confirm the meeting minutes. The most significant possible "other," Abbas himself, had the opportunity to confirm the statement and failed to do so.

It's not a secret, huh? Does that mean he attends chuch regulary?

Quote:

Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas, who attended the meeting in June 2003 too, also appears on the documentary series to recount how Mr Bush told him: "I have a moral and religious obligation. So I will get you a Palestinian state."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bush
This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while
.
(Reuters: September 21, 2001)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bush
The course of this conflict is not known, yet its outcome is certain. Freedom and fear, justice and cruelty, have always been at war, and we know that God is not neutral between them.
speech to Congress, September 20, 2001

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bush
Tyrants and dictators will accept no other gods before them. They require disobedience to the First Commandment. They seek absolute control and are threatened by faith in God. They fear only the power they cannot possess -- the power of truth. So they resent the living example of the devout, especially the devotion of a unique people chosen by God
Speech on Antisemitism (appears to ignore the fact that the Cathlioc Church was often complicit in the murder of jews in WW2) Apr 25th 2001

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bush
And this is my solemn pledge: I will work to build a single nation of justice and opportunity. I know this is in our reach because we are guided by a power larger than ourselves who creates us equal in His image.
Inaugeration Address
, Jan 2001

Some more recent ones:

Quote:
Through fellowship and prayer, we acknowledge that all power is temporary, and must ultimately answer to His purposes. And we know that affirming this truth is particularly appropriate in the heart of a capital built upon the promise of self-government.

Quote:
Our most important duty is to protect America. But I also want you to know that something else drives me. And it's that my belief that freedom is not America's gift to the world, but freedom is the Almighty God's gift to each man and woman in this world.

President Bush Speaks with Nation's Mayors at Winter Meeting

I know its hard for you to see... being a republican and all, but i'm afraid you elected a bible hugging lunatic.

W*GS · 10-07-2005, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronco_Beerslug

I know its hard for you to see... being a republican and all, but i'm afraid you elected a bible hugging lunatic.

Strangely, God-talk used to be part and parcel of presidential speeches.

What's different is that some folks get all riled up about it.

patteeu · 10-07-2005, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

Woodward asked Bush why he didn't ask his father for advice and Bush answered, "I rely on the advice of a higher father."

Link?

What he was talking about was drawing strength from a higher father not advice. Check it.

patteeu · 10-07-2005, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronco_Beerslug

It's not a secret, huh? Does that mean he attends chuch regulary?

No, I'm not speaking in code, I'm speaking plainly. If I'd intended to say he attends church regularly, I'd have said "he attends church regularly." See how that works?

What I did say was that it's no secret that Bush is a religious man. Your quotes below provide evidence of exactly that. What they don't do is support any belief that he ever said that God told him to invade Afghanistan and Iraq or that God told him to create a Palestinian state, which is what I thought this thread was about. If you intended to create a religion bashing thread instead, maybe you should try speaking more plainly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronco_Beerslug

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bush
This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while
.
(Reuters: September 21, 2001)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bush
The course of this conflict is not known, yet its outcome is certain. Freedom and fear, justice and cruelty, have always been at war, and we know that God is not neutral between them.
speech to Congress, September 20, 2001

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bush
Tyrants and dictators will accept no other gods before them. They require disobedience to the First Commandment. They seek absolute control and are threatened by faith in God. They fear only the power they cannot possess -- the power of truth. So they resent the living example of the devout, especially the devotion of a unique people chosen by God
Speech on Antisemitism (appears to ignore the fact that the Cathlioc Church was often complicit in the murder of jews in WW2) Apr 25th 2001

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bush
And this is my solemn pledge: I will work to build a single nation of justice and opportunity. I know this is in our reach because we are guided by a power larger than ourselves who creates us equal in His image.
Inaugeration Address
, Jan 2001

Some more recent ones:

Quote:
Through fellowship and prayer, we acknowledge that all power is temporary, and must ultimately answer to His purposes. And we know that affirming this truth is particularly appropriate in the heart of a capital built upon the promise of self-government.

Quote:
Our most important duty is to protect America. But I also want you to know that something else drives me. And it's that my belief that freedom is not America's gift to the world, but freedom is the Almighty God's gift to each man and woman in this world.

President Bush Speaks with Nation's Mayors at Winter Meeting

I know its hard for you to see... being a republican and all, but i'm afraid you elected a bible hugging lunatic.

Bronco_Beerslug · 10-07-2005, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu

Link?

What he was talking about was drawing strength from a high father not advice. Check it.

Apparently George didn't understand the question then.

Quote:

When Mr. Bush was asked by the journalist Bob Woodward if he had consulted with former President Bush about the decision to invade Iraq, the president replied: "He is the wrong father to appeal to in terms of strength. There is a higher father that I appeal to."

http://tinyurl.com/9k7vb

patteeu · 10-07-2005, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronco_Beerslug

I find it absolutely believable considering Bush has stated he believes God put him in office for a specific purpose. And the comments are from the meeting minutes confirmed by others.

BTW, what happened to those "others" you were talking about? You forgot to include any support for that statement in your last response.

patteeu · 10-07-2005, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronco_Beerslug

Apparently George didn't understand the question then.

http://tinyurl.com/9k7vb

Perhaps. Nonetheless, he didn't say what Rohirrim said he said.

10-06-2005, 05:59 PM	#1
Bronco_Beerslug Angling in the Deep Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Texas Riviera, Southern Mountains Posts: 24,281	'God gave' Bush mission to invade Iraq and Afghanistan Oh Boy. ----------------------------------------------------- GERRI PEEV GEORGE Bush told Palestinian leaders that God had instructed him to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, according to a new BBC television series. The revelation will be seized on by his detractors - at home and abroad - who fear that the president of the United States is waging a religious war in emulation of the Crusades. His remarks are also bound to cause embarrassment for Tony Blair, his chief partner in the war on terror, who has sought to play down the religious tensions underscoring operations in the Middle East. Mr Bush's remarks were made at a meeting with Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian prime minister, and his then foreign minister in June 2003. Nabil Shaath, now the Palestinian information minister, revealed details of the conversation to the BBC3 programme Elusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs. "President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq ...' And I did." The US leader had also said he felt "God's words coming to me" to "go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East. And, by God, I'm gonna do it." Mr Abbas, who was also at the meeting in the Egyptian resort of Sharm el-Sheikh, recounted Mr Bush saying: "I have a moral and religious obligation. So I will get you a Palestinian state." During a speech to the National Endowment for Democracy yesterday, Mr Bush lashed out at Islamists, accusing militants of trying to "rally the Muslim masses" by trying to control Iraq to establish "a radical Islamic empire that spans from Spain to Indonesia". The president has been under pressure to defend his Iraq policy after declining public support. Fears over the invasion could be further heightened by escalation of violence in the run-up to the 15 October referendum on a new constitution for Iraq. Mr Bush also likened the ideology of Islamic militants to communism, accusing elements of the Arab news media of inciting antisemitism. "We are facing a radical ideology with immeasurable objectives to enslave whole nations and intimidate the world," he said. The US would not relent until the terror networks were broken, the president said. He was backed by his vice-president, Dick Cheney, who warned that the US would be committed to the war on terror for decades. The revelation comes at a sensitive time as Iraqis prepare to go to the polls. Mr Blair yesterday met Jalal Talabani, the Iraqi prime minister, to discuss the security crisis. The Prime Minister confirmed remarks by an unnamed official that the government believed Iran was behind arming the insurgents attacking British troops. http://tinyurl.com/7axch

10-07-2005, 09:37 AM	#17
epicSocialism4tw Tebowing the long haul all the way to the title Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: TX, USA Posts: 37,072 Adopt-a-Bronco: Champ Bailey	You know, I am sorry that it has come to this. You guy post this stuff as though it is truth and possibly rationalize even to yourselves how this is relevant news to us in America. You have a palestinian radical trying to rile up his comrades by shouting "Holy War!!!" to his choir. What is more disturbing is how you guys use information that could potentially encourage more terrorism here just to make the point that you dont like Bush. Its irresponsible and immature. Last edited by epicSocialism4tw; 10-07-2005 at 10:44 AM..

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10-06-2005, 06:04 PM	#2
elsid13 Lost In Space Bóg, Honor, Ojczyzna Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: DC Posts: 19,080	Very bad for US image oversea from credible new source. And YES it does matter what we look like.

10-07-2005, 05:50 AM	#4
patteeu KC Chiefs Missionary Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,794	Don't you have any better things for which to criticize Bush rather than rehashing old stories? This wasn't a very credible story the first time it was reported months ago, and I don't see that much has changed. It's worth noting that Mahmoud Abbas doesn't confirm the story when given an opportunity.

10-07-2005, 06:11 AM	#6
Rohirrim Partisan Human Cannonball Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Twixt Hell & Highwater Posts: 48,801

10-07-2005, 06:23 AM	#8
BurgundyNGold Seasoned Veteran Bringin' It Strong Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 313	Bush is a whack job, no doubt. But I'm not going to put a whole lot of stock into this accusation until it's picked up and confirmed by some other, more credbile news sources that news.scotsman.com. I mean, if this interview was supposedly on BBC3, why isn't the BBC reporting it?

10-07-2005, 09:11 AM	#12
Hogan11 Rock-N-Roll Historian Let's take these SOB's out!!!!!! Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: W.NY.B.C. Posts: 21,300 Adopt-a-Bronco: Floyd Little	You people are reading it all wrong.....when Bush refers to "God", he's really talking about Karl Rove.

10-07-2005, 10:33 AM	#18
Rohirrim Partisan Human Cannonball Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Twixt Hell & Highwater Posts: 48,801	Woodward asked Bush why he didn't ask his father for advice and Bush answered, "I rely on the advice of a higher father."