Fetuses May Not Feel Pain in Early Months

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I doubt these scientific findings are what antiabortionists were looking for.

The review by researchers at the University of California, San Francisco comes as advocates are pushing for fetal pain laws aimed at curtailing abortion. Proposed federal legislation would require doctors to provide fetal pain information to women seeking abortions when fetuses are at least 20 weeks old

------------------------------------------------------
By LINDSEY TANNER, AP Medical Writer

CHICAGO - A review of medical evidence has found that fetuses likely don't feel pain until the final months of pregnancy, a powerful challenge to abortion opponents who hope that discussions about fetal pain will make women think twice about ending pregnancies.

Critics angrily disputed the findings and claimed the report is biased.

"They have literally stuck their hands into a hornet's nest," said Dr. Kanwaljeet Anand, a fetal pain researcher at the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences, who believes fetuses as young as 20 weeks old feel pain. "This is going to inflame a lot of scientists who are very, very concerned and are far more knowledgeable in this area than the authors appear to be. This is not the last word — definitely not."

The review by researchers at the University of California, San Francisco comes as advocates are pushing for fetal pain laws aimed at curtailing abortion. Proposed federal legislation would require doctors to provide fetal pain information to women seeking abortions when fetuses are at least 20 weeks old, and to offer women fetal anesthesia at that stage of the pregnancy. A handful of states have enacted similar measures.

But the report, appearing in Wednesday's
Journal of the American Medical Association, says that offering fetal pain relief during abortions in the fifth or sixth months of pregnancy is misguided and might result in unacceptable health risks to women.

Dr. Nancy Chescheir, chairman of obstetrics and gynecology at Vanderbilt University and a board director at the Society of Maternal-Fetal Medicine, said the article "will help to develop some consensus" on when fetuses feel pain. "To date, there hasn't been any."

The researchers reviewed dozens of studies and medical reports and said the data indicate that fetuses likely are incapable of feeling pain until around the seventh month of pregnancy, when they are about 28 weeks old.

While brain structures involved in feeling pain begin forming much earlier, research indicates they likely do not function until the pregnancy's final stages, said the report's senior author, UCSF obstetric anesthesiologist Dr. Mark Rosen.

Based on the evidence, discussions of fetal pain for abortions performed before the end of the second trimester should not be mandatory, the researchers said.

The authors include the administrator of a UCSF abortion clinic, but the researchers dispute the claim that the report is biased.

Dr. Catherine DeAngelis, JAMA's editor-in-chief, said the decision to publish the review was not politically motivated.

"Oh, please," DeAngelis said. "If I had a political agenda, I wouldn't pick fetal pain."

JAMA does not publish "politically motivated science. We publish data-based, evidence-based science," DeAngelis said.

The measure pending in Congress would affect about 18,000 U.S. abortions a year performed in the fifth month of pregnancy or later, said Douglas Johnson, legislative director of the
National Right to Life Committee. He said the review is slanted.

But Rosen said the researchers "tried to review the literature in an unbiased fashion. This was a multidisciplinary effort by experts on anesthesia, neuroanatomy, obstetrics and neonatal development."

Rosen also said that administering anesthesia or painkillers to the fetus could pose health risks to the mother.

When doctors operate on fetuses to correct defects before birth, general anesthesia is given to the mother primarily to immobilize the fetus and to make the uterus relax, Rosen said. Anesthesia during fetal surgery increases the mother's risks for breathing problems and bleeding from a relaxed uterus, the researchers said.

Rosen said those risks are medically acceptable when the goal is to save the fetus but there's not enough evidence to show any benefit from fetus-directed anesthesia during an abortion.

Administering anesthesia directly to the fetus is also sometimes done but generally to reduce the release of potentially harmful fetal stress hormones, Rosen said. There is little research on its effects, the authors said.

Anand, the researcher from Arkansas, said the authors excluded or minimized evidence suggesting fetal pain sensation begins in the second trimester and wrongly assume that fetuses' brains sense pain in the same way as adult brains.

While Anand has testified as an expert witness for the government in court cases opposing some late-term abortions, he said he is not anti-abortion and that his views are based on years of fetal pain research.
http://tinyurl.com/7vz6c

[Mile High Shack]

sure

[TheDave]

Not really any suprise... Pain is a fairly complex neurological event. Even if the pathways are established at such an early stage i would bet there is no way for such an immature brain to be able to process/understand such information. In any event, i doubt that this will mean much to pro-life proponents. My family members are all against abortion because of their religious beliefs.

[Mile High Shack]

Originally Posted by TheDave

Not really any suprise... Pain is a fairly complex neurological event. Even if the pathways are established at such an early stage i would bet there is no way for such an immature brain to be able to process/understand such information. In any event, i doubt that this will mean much to pro-life proponents. My family members are all against abortion because of their religious beliefs.

mostly b/c I don't believe it myself, there is no way of knowing...........

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by TheDave

In any event, i doubt that this will mean much to pro-life proponents.

You can bank on that.



(Courtesy of Riggs11)

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Originally Posted by Mile High Shack

mostly b/c I don't believe it myself, there is no way of knowing...........

No way of knowing what?

[Mile High Shack]

Originally Posted by Bronco_Beerslug

No way of knowing what?

Whether for sure 100% sure that a child can feel pain in the womb (not calling it a fetus, it’s a child)

Hey, whatever helps people sleep at night that kill a child I suppose, like a puppy, aaaa he didn’t feel any pain.

[Rohirrim]

That's one way to side-step an ethical decision.

[Mile High Shack]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

That's one way to side-step an ethical decision.

how is it side stepping

it's my personal belief it's murder

but like I said, whatever helps people sleep at night that do it.........

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Mile High Shack

how is it side stepping

it's my personal belief it's murder

but like I said, whatever helps people sleep at night that do it.........

I was referring to the article.

[Mile High Shack]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

I was referring to the article.

aaaa

sorry about that chief

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Originally Posted by Mile High Shack

Whether for sure 100% sure that a child can feel pain in the womb (not calling it a fetus, it’s a child)

Hey, whatever helps people sleep at night that kill a child I suppose, like a puppy, aaaa he didn’t feel any pain.

So the people who pushed legislation against abortion through in several states based on a fetus being able to feel pain are wrong then?

[Rascal]

"A review of medical evidence has found that fetuses likely don't feel pain until the final months of pregnancy."

Bush also said it was likely WMD's were in Iraq.

Nuff said.

[Mile High Shack]

Originally Posted by Bronco_Beerslug

So the people who pushed legislation against abortion through in several states based on a fetus being able to feel pain are wrong then?

see below at rascal's response

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Originally Posted by Mile High Shack

see below at rascal's response

I did and what? You didn't answer my question. Comparing Bush's covering up of Iraqi intelligence to scientific research is quite the reach but that isn't the question.

[Rascal]

Originally Posted by Bronco_Beerslug

So the people who pushed legislation against abortion through in several states based on a fetus being able to feel pain are wrong then?

Nope, because the link you posted has several quotes of other scientists who doubt these claims. And it has a key term "likely" so even they are not 100% sure about it. That is a pretty ambiguous term for a research paper and serverly dampens the validity of that paper regardless of what conclusions it came to...even Dave will agree with that.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Originally Posted by Rascal

Nope, because the link you posted has several quotes of other scientists who doubt these claims. And it has a key term "likely" so even they are not 100% sure about it. That is a pretty ambiguous term for a research paper and serverly dampens the validity of that paper regardless of what conclusions it came to...even Dave will agree with that.

You missed the question too.




And I only seen one researcher (anti-abortion) who commented against the findings in that article.

[Rascal]

No I didn't miss it. I just didn't answer it the way you wanted.

You asked if they were wrong and I said no and explained why.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Originally Posted by Rascal

No I didn't miss it. I just didn't answer it the way you wanted.

You asked if they were wrong and I said no and explained why.

You didn't explain anything.

The question to MHS is (since he said there is no way to know that a fetus feels pain or not) legislation that prohibits abortions because a fetus experiences pain is wrong then?

I mean if there is no way of knowing how can you legislate the pain subject one way or the other?

[Rascal]

Again, no it isn't wrong because "...it has a key term "likely" so even they are not 100% sure about it. That is a pretty ambiguous term for a research paper and serverly dampens the validity of that paper regardless of what conclusions it came to..."

[REB]

What difference does it make? There are a number of ways a person can murder another person without them feeling pain but it's still murder.

REB

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Originally Posted by Rascal

Again, no it isn't wrong because "And it has a key term "likely" so even they are not 100% sure about it. That is a pretty ambiguous term for a research paper and serverly dampens the validity of that paper regardless of what conclusions it came to...even Dave will agree with that."

You're not READING the question It's about the statement "there is no way of knowing". So, based on THAT statement how can legislation be passed that says a fetus feels pain? Where are the facts that shows a fetus feels pain?

[bendog]

I don't know. I'm not willing to tell a woman what to do or not to do. It's just not polite, and besides they can get b****y over nothing at all, so why antagonize them. It's like the barking dog on my walks. I just try to ignore it, and hope it stays on it's side of the fence.

but I remember when Mrs Dog had amnio and the fetus swam over to look at the needle. If it has that intelligence .....

OT but we know a family where the doc stuck the amnio needle in and took out an eye ..... cringe.

[Rascal]

Well I didn't make the statement so I don't know.

My point is this...even the article itself says "likely" and being only one paper that should not be something to base one's decision off of.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Originally Posted by Rascal

Well I didn't make the statement so I don't know.

My point is this...even the article itself says "likely" and being only one paper that should not be something to base one's decision off of.

So does this include people who make laws saying a fetus DOES feel pain?






And this was many researchers anaylzing years of medical studies.....

Dr. Nancy Chescheir, chairman of obstetrics and gynecology at Vanderbilt University and a board director at the Society of Maternal-Fetal Medicine, said the article "will help to develop some consensus" on when fetuses feel pain. "To date, there hasn't been any."

The researchers reviewed dozens of studies and medical reports and said the data indicate that fetuses likely are incapable of feeling pain until around the seventh month of pregnancy, when they are about 28 weeks old.

While brain structures involved in feeling pain begin forming much earlier, research indicates they likely do not function until the pregnancy's final stages, said the report's senior author, UCSF obstetric anesthesiologist Dr. Mark Rosen.

Based on the evidence, discussions of fetal pain for abortions performed before the end of the second trimester should not be mandatory, the researchers said.