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Old 08-12-2005, 04:09 AM   #1
Eli_Cash
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Default Playoffs, we're talking about playoffs

For the life of me I do not understand why Plummer gets zero credit for leading the Arizona Cardinals to a playoff win.

I'm not sure but the Vatican my have that as possible criteria for sainthood.

Plummer gets hung out to dry by the national media on an almost daily basis.

Granted some of it is deserved after his high INT numbers.

Yet his win totals aren't too shabby.

I just don't understand how Trint Green and "Talk about my feelings" Vermeil escape the criticism that is dropped on Shanahan and Plummer.


Seriously, the Cardinals won a playoff game.
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Old 08-12-2005, 06:27 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli_Cash
For the life of me I do not understand why Plummer gets zero credit for leading the Arizona Cardinals to a playoff win.

I'm not sure but the Vatican my have that as possible criteria for sainthood.

Plummer gets hung out to dry by the national media on an almost daily basis.

Granted some of it is deserved after his high INT numbers.

Yet his win totals aren't too shabby.

I just don't understand how Trint Green and "Talk about my feelings" Vermeil escape the criticism that is dropped on Shanahan and Plummer.


Seriously, the Cardinals won a playoff game.
He won that playoff game in 1998 and the national media was all over his jock. He responded by coming out in 1999 and throwing nine TDs against 24 interceptions.
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Old 08-12-2005, 09:18 AM   #3
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Old 08-12-2005, 11:38 AM   #4
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So he threw some picks, your missing the point.

How many other times has Arizona won a playoff game?
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Old 08-12-2005, 12:12 PM   #5
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Elway had 6 seasons where he threw more INTs than TDs. It always kills me how the football set loves the "gambling" QB when he's throwing TDs, but we're so shocked when the guy throws some picks.

Brett Favre has averaged right around 20 INTs since their SB days.

Elway probably averaged 15 picks per year for his career.

Plummer obviously isn't in their class. But, he's a gambling, play-making QB. You can't ask a guy like that to run around and make plays.... and then pretend to be shocked when he throws some INTs. He's a poor man's Elway, NOT a poor man's Troy Aikman. He's going to make some mistakes and put some balls up for grabs at times. It's going to happen. He's not a conservative, ball-control QB.

Is it enough to win in the playoffs? I think so, but I can't understand how people continue to run around this board acting surprised that the guy throws picks. The difference between Plummer and a schmuck like Griese is that Plummer will actually make some things happen on his own and fire up the offense.
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Old 08-12-2005, 12:43 PM   #6
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Is it enough to win in the playoffs? I think so, but I can't understand how people continue to run around this board acting surprised that the guy throws picks. The difference between Plummer and a schmuck like Griese is that Plummer will actually make some things happen on his own and fire up the offense.
The way you beat a gambling QB is to force a playmaker to take risks. You do that with pressure. The Broncos simply had the worst interior line I've ever seen last year...particularly at the guard spot. They got worse and worse as the year went on. A mobile QB (like Plummer) tends to handle outside pressure well.. they have up-the-field options in terms of running or buying time. When the pressure comes at them from the middle.. there is simply nowhere to go. At that point they force throws and picks happen.. if you watch the last few games of the season you'll see it over and over again. The line simply broke down in the middle and left the QB no options. If your going to have a guy taking chances at QB you sure as hell better give him interior protection so that those gambles are better measured and more effective. The Broncos didn't.. and they went into yet another late season slide as a result.
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Old 08-12-2005, 12:56 PM   #7
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Good take enjolras
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Old 08-12-2005, 12:58 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Eli_Cash
So he threw some picks, your missing the point.

How many other times has Arizona won a playoff game?

BFD...Jake is 0-2 in Denver and has not been a factor in either game.
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Old 08-12-2005, 01:19 PM   #9
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"BFD...Jake is 0-2 in Denver and has not been a factor in either game."

I'm pretty sure I remember that, although I'd rather not.

Again, I'm just saying that he won a playoff game in Arizona.

I'm well aware of his shortcomings here.

My confusion is how the national media gives Jake the high hat but someone like Trint Green gets a pass.

Actually like most of the Super Bowls in the 80's the Broncos did not have the team to compete with their opponent the last two years point blank.

You can take Jake to task for the picks but the Bronco teams the last two years went about as far as they should have.

That being said, I do have higher expectations this upcoming season.

Running Back and Wide Reciever should be steadier as a whole.

The front office for the first time in recent history addressed the special teams failures.

Most importantly, it seems that the Defense may have some big play possibilities or at least some more turnovers.


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Old 08-12-2005, 01:54 PM   #10
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Isn't it funny that everybody here is constantly crying that we don't force enough turnovers? Probably the most consistent single factor that determines who wins NFL games are turnover differential. Lets ignore Jake's consistently high turnover totals, though. He won a playoff game for a perennial doormat six years ago.

Trint Green doesn't get a pass by anybody. I don't see the national media kissing his ass. One reason Jake gets more abuse is because the standard is much higher in Denver than it is in Gay Cee. The other reason? I dunno, ****ing lefthanded passes from his own endzone, maybe? In his eighth season when bull**** like that should have been beaten out of his system a long time ago?

At least he might have a better chance of staying focused this year if he's not feuding with the League Office over stickers for his helmet. Hopefully he won't find anything else to distract his already questionable attention span.
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Old 08-12-2005, 02:58 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enjolras
If your going to have a guy taking chances at QB you sure as hell better give him interior protection so that those gambles are better measured and more effective. The Broncos didn't.. and they went into yet another late season slide as a result.
Makes good sense.

My point was that it always brings a chuckle when people around here piss and moan because Jake took a chance or made a silly play.... like they're just so shocked and surprised. Like I said, he's a poor man's Elway and those with long memories will remember Elway making a TON of plays that left Bronco fans scratching their heads.

He's that kind of QB. If we wanted a pocket passer, we would have signed one. We wanted a mobile guy who could make some things happen on his own. We got one... but along with that comes some gambles, a few stupid plays and some INTs.

27-20 isn't a horrific ratio, by the way. As I said... Favre averages about 20 a year. If Jake can cut that down a bit, he'll be fine. If it were 27-17, I'll guarantee you we wouldn't have the alarmists running around this board b****ing about one goofy throw he made in the first half of an early season game that we won, anyway.

If you think Jake is suddenly going to transform into a conservative pocket passer, let me save you the worries: he won't.

Does that mean he won't improve? Of course not. Look at what he's done since he's come to Denver. Look at his numbers. He busted our yardage record and tied The Man's QB numbers and I believe he's something like 20-9 as a starter and has led us to the playoffs two straight years. Maybe it's not time to panic just yet.

I have an idea, how about we hold our defense accountable from time to time? Near the bottom of the league in creating turnovers and allowed Indy to be playing their back-ups against us by half-time... yet, that's acceptable?
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Old 08-12-2005, 03:01 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli_Cash
For the life of me I do not understand why Plummer gets zero credit for leading the Arizona Cardinals to a playoff win.

.
Probably because every year but one when he was in Arizona he threw more than 20 ints.
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Old 08-12-2005, 03:10 PM   #13
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Probably because every year but one when he was in Arizona he threw more than 20 ints.
Or because he throws four interceptions in games that will determine the division title, including his unique take on the fade pattern, that puts the ball up for grabs at the goalline, instead of the conventional approach that drops the ball into the corner of the end zone. He screws the pooch in new and innovative ways, I'll give him that much.
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Old 08-12-2005, 10:22 PM   #14
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[QUOTE=Popps
27-20 isn't a horrific ratio, by the way. As I said... Favre averages about 20 a year. If Jake can cut that down a bit, he'll be fine. If it were 27-17, I'll guarantee you we wouldn't have the alarmists running around this board b****ing about one goofy throw he made in the first half of an early season game that we won, anyway.
QUOTE]
27-20 is still TOO many ints. It puts too much pressure on that defense you want to lay some blame on (rightly!).

15 Ints is about all that any QB can have and not be hurting his teams chances. Throwing picks in key DIVISION games is exactly what will kill us this year. We have to hold court at home and win a couple on the road in those games to have a realistic shot at the division title. The schedule is too tough to give points away, especially a 9th year player .

Plummer is our QB and we have to hope he HAS progressed. If he hasn't, we will be competitve, but I think the division is so tough that 10-6 may win it this year. The Defense and special team improvements should keep us close to that level. If Jake IS better we may see 12-4. If he plays like last year I see 8-8 or 9-7.

I'm impressed with the reports we have gotten out of camp, but Injuries to our Offensive line may just be the X factor. We HAVE to stay healthy there or it could be a long season.
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Old 08-12-2005, 10:23 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli_Cash
For the life of me I do not understand why Plummer gets zero credit for leading the Arizona Cardinals to a playoff win.
Because he didn't lead them to that win. He threw two interceptions in that game and his offense only scored 20 points. Arizona's defense won that game.
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Old 08-12-2005, 10:26 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli_Cash
For the life of me I do not understand why Plummer gets zero credit for leading the Arizona Cardinals to a playoff win.

I'm not sure but the Vatican my have that as possible criteria for sainthood.

Plummer gets hung out to dry by the national media on an almost daily basis.

Granted some of it is deserved after his high INT numbers.

Yet his win totals aren't too shabby.

I just don't understand how Trint Green and "Talk about my feelings" Vermeil escape the criticism that is dropped on Shanahan and Plummer.


Seriously, the Cardinals won a playoff game.
Because nobody covers the Chiefs
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Old 08-12-2005, 10:29 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Slap-
Isn't it funny that everybody here is constantly crying that we don't force enough turnovers? Probably the most consistent single factor that determines who wins NFL games are turnover differential. Lets ignore Jake's consistently high turnover totals, though. He won a playoff game for a perennial doormat six years ago.

Trint Green doesn't get a pass by anybody. I don't see the national media kissing his ass. One reason Jake gets more abuse is because the standard is much higher in Denver than it is in Gay Cee. The other reason? I dunno, ****ing lefthanded passes from his own endzone, maybe? In his eighth season when bull**** like that should have been beaten out of his system a long time ago?

At least he might have a better chance of staying focused this year if he's not feuding with the League Office over stickers for his helmet. Hopefully he won't find anything else to distract his already questionable attention span.
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Old 08-12-2005, 10:32 PM   #18
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Old 08-12-2005, 10:32 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Popps
Makes good sense.

My point was that it always brings a chuckle when people around here piss and moan because Jake took a chance or made a silly play.... like they're just so shocked and surprised. Like I said, he's a poor man's Elway and those with long memories will remember Elway making a TON of plays that left Bronco fans scratching their heads.

He's that kind of QB. If we wanted a pocket passer, we would have signed one. We wanted a mobile guy who could make some things happen on his own. We got one... but along with that comes some gambles, a few stupid plays and some INTs.

27-20 isn't a horrific ratio, by the way. As I said... Favre averages about 20 a year. If Jake can cut that down a bit, he'll be fine. If it were 27-17, I'll guarantee you we wouldn't have the alarmists running around this board b****ing about one goofy throw he made in the first half of an early season game that we won, anyway.

If you think Jake is suddenly going to transform into a conservative pocket passer, let me save you the worries: he won't.

Does that mean he won't improve? Of course not. Look at what he's done since he's come to Denver. Look at his numbers. He busted our yardage record and tied The Man's QB numbers and I believe he's something like 20-9 as a starter and has led us to the playoffs two straight years. Maybe it's not time to panic just yet.

I have an idea, how about we hold our defense accountable from time to time? Near the bottom of the league in creating turnovers and allowed Indy to be playing their back-ups against us by half-time... yet, that's acceptable?
Pops! good to see you back, must be football season.

I bought a mac Power Book partly on your urging.Question, how do it post a n image on the Mane using my Power Book?
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Old 08-12-2005, 11:37 PM   #20
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All very solid points.

I get alot of denver bashing over here in the east coast.

Starting to take a toll.

Having to wait until monday to see the preseason game doesn't help.

That and the Dan Reeves flashbacks...
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Old 08-13-2005, 12:01 AM   #21
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...That and the Dan Reeves flashbacks...
Oh boy, me too...every time Denver is third & goal at the three I keep thinking Sammy Winder will sprint down from the stands and lose two.
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Old 08-13-2005, 12:22 AM   #22
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Oh boy, me too...every time Denver is third & goal at the three I keep thinking Sammy Winder will sprint down from the stands and lose two.
Or Gerald Willhite will dive from the three and only make a yard
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Old 08-13-2005, 12:27 AM   #23
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Assuming the passing lane is where it's supposed to be, and the receivers come back to the ball/find a soft spot in a zone, there's less interior pressure so the Qb can step into throws, the O coaching staff gets the play in faster, and the playcall can somehow be kept to under a paragraph, and the RB's are a little more skilled in the passing game . . . .

Then Den could have a good passing game this year. It wan't all Jakes fault the passing game stumbled and stuttered a lot last year.
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Old 08-13-2005, 01:59 AM   #24
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Pops! good to see you back, must be football season.

I bought a mac Power Book partly on your urging.Question, how do it post a n image on the Mane using my Power Book?
Hey man...

It's been crazy busy on my end, in a good way.... but I'm doing my best to keep up with the coming season.

Glad you came over to the good side. Just landed an iBook in addition to my two other studio Macs. PM me and let me know what kind of issue you're having with the pics. Sounds more like a Mane related thing.
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Old 08-13-2005, 02:02 AM   #25
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Because he didn't lead them to that win. He threw two interceptions in that game and his offense only scored 20 points. Arizona's defense won that game.
And that's still one more than TrINT's got.
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