this should scare the hell out of you ......

[Spider]

Forget Saddam , he was nothing ..........
This is a real threat and we could be with in a pubic hair of war in a few short years .........
http://www.strategycenter.net/resear...pub_detail.asp

[Hotrod]

Originally Posted by §Pide®

Forget Saddam , he was nothing ..........
This is a real threat and we could be with in a pubic hair of war in a few short years .........
http://www.strategycenter.net/resear...pub_detail.asp

China is enemy #1 in my book.

http://reuters.myway.com/article/200...LDBANK-DC.html

[W*GS]

Originally Posted by §Pide®

Forget Saddam , he was nothing ..........
This is a real threat and we could be with in a pubic hair of war in a few short years .........

I don't think so.

This "Yellow Menace" fearmongering isn't helping those of us who are more cool and rational.

I mean "scare the hell out of you"?

Nope.

[Spider]

Originally Posted by W*GS

I don't think so.

This "Yellow Menace" fearmongering isn't helping those of us who are more cool and rational.

I mean "scare the hell out of you"?

Nope.

Depends on Taiwan ........ China wants it back ,USA wants Taiwan to remain independent ........ Less than a week after China announced its new "Anti-Secession" law, by which Beijing claims the right to attack democratic Taiwan if it sees fit, a Chinese official demanded Australia amend its 50-year-old alliance with the United States.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4314993.stm ]
Clinton locked horns with China over Taiwan ........ this isnt over ....... Dont blame the wreck on the train if you ignore the warning lights

[W*GS]

Originally Posted by §Pide®

Depends on Taiwan ........ China wants it back ,USA wants Taiwan to remain independent ........

What would China gain by going to war with the US?

[Hotrod]

Originally Posted by §Pide®

Depends on Taiwan ........ China wants it back ,USA wants Taiwan to remain independent ........ Less than a week after China announced its new "Anti-Secession" law, by which Beijing claims the right to attack democratic Taiwan if it sees fit, a Chinese official demanded Australia amend its 50-year-old alliance with the United States.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4314993.stm ]
Clinton locked horns with China over Taiwan ........ this isnt over ....... Dont blame the wreck on the train if you ignore the warning lights

I agree with most of that except Clinton did a poor job "locking horns" with China.

They got tech rich during his terms and dont forget the trade status.

[Hotrod]

Originally Posted by W*GS

What would China gain by going to war with the US?

They wont IMO go to a convintional war it will be much more an econmical one but..... What if China attacks taiwan do we defend her. Yes I think we will there is your war. The interesting county in this would be Russa. Does she sit by and watch China and the USA pound each other or does she jump in with the USA which would after the war put her back ahead of China in that region of the world as far as super power status is concerned

[Spider]

Originally Posted by W*GS

What would China gain by going to war with the US?

Trade routes , Scientist , Economy , Domination ......

[Spider]

Originally Posted by Hotrod

I agree with most of that except Clinton did a poor job "locking horns" with China.

They got tech rich during his terms and dont forget the trade status.

Taiwan is still free isnt it ?

[W*GS]

Originally Posted by §Pide®

Trade routes , Scientist , Economy , Domination ......

Explain.

Getting those things as a result of a war would be worth the tremendous cost of such a war, to China?

How?

[Spider]

Originally Posted by W*GS

Explain.

Getting those things as a result of a war would be worth the tremendous cost of such a war, to China?

How?

Taiwan for starters ....... then we can look at expanding Communism , and the rebuilding of Russia , China can finaly get ahold of Japan ( even though Japan does deserve some it ) .China can connect with Cuba .....
China can push their goods through alot easier , not to mention finaly have some control over Brittian ...... there is an old score to settle there ........Then we can dive into the energy aspect

[W*GS]

Originally Posted by §Pide®

Taiwan for starters ....... then we can look at expanding Communism , and the rebuilding of Russia , China can finaly get ahold of Japan ( even though Japan does deserve some it ) .China can connect with Cuba .....
China can push their goods through alot easier , not to mention finaly have some control over Brittian ...... there is an old score to settle there ........Then we can dive into the energy aspect

You do realize that demographic changes alone spell doom for China in a plan such as the above that would take decades to carry out, don't you?

"connect with Cuba"?

Cuba, economically, is a worthless pile of crap. All China would get out of an alliance with Cuba is a parasite.

And what "energy aspect" would China gain from defeating the US in a war? We don't have that much oil left, as LABF reminds us. Access to more Middle East oil? And that's worth a war against the US?

Really?

[Spider]

Originally Posted by W*GS

You do realize that demographic changes alone spell doom for China in a plan such as the above that would take decades to carry out, don't you?

where did I say it would be overnight ? you do realize there are more People in China under the age of 14 then all of America ? ...China has to expand

"connect with Cuba"?

Cuba, economically, is a worthless pile of crap. All China would get out of an alliance with Cuba is a parasite.

Only because of our Sanctions ........ Besides Cuba would make a good Military out post for China ......

And what "energy aspect" would China gain from defeating the US in a war? We don't have that much oil left, as LABF reminds us. Access to more Middle East oil? And that's worth a war against the US?

.... wow .America is the Biggest comsumer of Energy , bar none , the point wouldnt be to take Oil , the point would be to regulate our consumption .....

Really?

Realy .......

[sutoazul]

dude, if we go into a war with china we are in big Shiit!!... Pretty much same technology, bigger military (More manpower by the ##), plus a stronger working force to sustained in a long war.

[Spider]

Originally Posted by sutoazul

dude, if we go into a war with china we are in big Shiit!!...

it will shake the very core of the earth .......

Pretty much same technology, bigger military (More manpower by the ##),

I think we still have the upper hand in Tech ..

plus a stronger working force to sustained in a long war.

Stronger workforce ? I dont think so ......

[sutoazul]

Originally Posted by §Pide®

Stronger workforce ? I dont think so ......

No?? Why not?? Don't you think they produce twice as many goods as US companies do!!!?? even if we count american companies that operate outside the US.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The only leverage we have over China is the fact that there is no other market for their cheap WalMart junk that can replace ours.

[Spider]

Originally Posted by sutoazul

No?? Why not?? Don't you think they produce twice as many goods as US companies do!!!?? even if we count american companies that operate outside the US.

Big difference in quality ........

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Buy America — China does just that with BushCo's help

By Jack Dalton

The single greatest "hostile" takeover of a nation is under way, and it is our nation. Thanks to the unbelievable growth of Wal-Mart, more of what the consumer here purchases is being made in China, while U.S. jobs continue to disappear. This nation is now in serious debt to China. At the same time China is experiencing huge national growth which means they need an increasing amount of oil to provide the energy to fuel its growth. China is now exceeded only by the U.S. in its "need" for more oil.

The PNAC -- Project for a New American Century -- in its essay, "Rebuilding America's Defenses" stated how the U.S. must eliminate all competition/competitors to the U.S.; that is to include all social, economic and political competition as well as in business. This is to include air, ground, sea and outer space competition.

The Carlyle Group is a "group" of investors. They make their money by investing in other companies, to the extent that Carlyle gains controlling interest thru their "investment" in many of those companies. The majority of the upper tier at Carlyle are also members of the PNAC. They are the same people that signed on to "Rebuilding America's Defenses" which articulated the absolute need for this country to squash any and all "competitors" in anything and everything, real or perceived, to the U.S., external and internal.

CitiGroup is the largest investment bank on the planet. The Carlyle Group owns controlling shares in CitiGroup/CitiBank. So now we have the PNAC whose members are also partners in the Carlyle Group which is heavily invested in the CitiGroup.

Last year in 2004, CitiGroup bought controlling interest in China's second-largest "development" bank (investment bank). A side note: CitiBank a few years ago also bought 49% interest in Banamex a large bank in Mexico. Banamex was on the international list of banks laundering massive amounts of drug money...something to the tune of $500 billion a year -- it does get interesting does it not? Narco-News ended up in a two year court battle with Banamex/CitiBank when Al broke the story about this. Al did win the case and CitiBank could not do what they wanted to do, shut Al and Narco-News down. I wonder how much of the billions in drug money coming out of Afghanistan CitiBank is handling today. But, back to where I was at before I digress too much.

In Oct/Nov of 2000, this nation attempted to negotiate with the Taliban in Afghanistan on behalf of UNOCAL, for an oil pipeline thru northern Afghanistan. That did not happen so the State Department told the Taliban to "accept our carpet of Gold, or you will receive a carpet of bombs." We all know what happened next -- BOOM! Now UNOCAL has its oil pipeline with 4 U.S. military bases to protect it at taxpayer expense.

Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Doug Feith, Michael Leeden, John Bolton, Richard Pearle among many others in government today, were and are all members of the PNAC. In fact they are founding members along with Bill Krystal of the Weekly Standard and Charles Krauthammer of the American Enterprise Institute. They are also the one's who came up and were behind the "Iraq Liberation Act" in 1998. They are also at the heart of the BushCo war cabinet.

Of late, a lot of fingers in Washington have been pointed at the growing "threat" to us posed by China. China is the biggest competitor this nation has for the worlds dwindling oil reserves and soon China will need even more oil to sustain its economy than what we demand.

If you want to eliminate a competitor such as a nation, pull them into the WTO--as we know that thru the WTO a nation's laws can be circumvented--then take over one of its banks, which gives the access to the internal economy, and using WTO rules along with the power of the bank, "restructure the economy" so that no matter what happens the investors will still make money. The ultimate in playing both ends against the middle, don't you think? And that is what is taking place right now.

China's banks and oil company has made an $18.5 billion bid for UNOCAL. CitiGroup owns controlling interest in one of the banks involved in this "deal" and Carlyle Group owns controlling interest in CitiGroup and the members of the PNAC are part and parcel a part of both CitiGroup and the Carlyle Group. And these are the very same people that have led this nation, under the banner of G.W. Bush, into a "war of aggression" and a "war against the peace."

These are the very same people that have outsourced American jobs to cheap labor markets so the U.S. multinationals bottom line will be higher. These are the same people who have all but eliminated our ability to challenge U.S. corporations in court for the harm they cause. These are the same people who consistently tell us we are a nation of laws that adheres to the "rule of law" while BushCo openly turns the "rule of law" on its head.

These are the same people that while telling us how great the economy is are setting about the business of making sure they are protected financially, while eliminating any chance at financial security for those in this nation. All the new "laws" coming out of congress; all the federal court decisions being made in the past 5 years have all been skewed to the very wealthy and to U.S. multinationals, with us, the people of the nation, being left totally out of the picture. These are the same people who invoke the name of the American people behind everything they do, while everything they do leaves the American people behind. And then they tell us we must now "watch what we say" and give us "free speech zones."

So the next time any of you feel the need to cheer for what BushCo has bestowed upon us and the rest of the world try and remember that those behind this madness believe as did John Jay who in 1777, during the writing of our Constitution stated, "The people who own the country ought to rule the country." Only now it should be changed to, "the people that own the country ought to rule the world" as that is what they are headed toward.

There is no lie that is beyond them; there is no back-room deal that is beyond them; there is no deception that is beyond them; in fact there is virtually no one that Bush has appointed to a government position that has not come out of the those who want to turn our governing body into one big corporate board of directors. Virtually everyone Bush has appointed came out of corporate America or was a corporate lobbyist.

BushCo & Company are making self-serving back-room deals, as they have with the taking over of one of China's banks, while continuing to point their collective fingers at "evil" China and declare it a threat to our security. At the same time U.S. multinationals and investment banks are plowing borrowed money into China's economy with the aid of the same people calling China a threat to the U.S.

With the world facing "Peak Oil" and the emergence of China as a growing economy, and the decline of Saudi oil, U.S. investors will continue to make money, only now thru China's oil industry. For BushCo, it's all about power and money. Who gets hurt in the process is of no concern to them. Both ends against the middle is going on here, and we are the ones in the middle getting squashed.

Thru this all we are constantly reminded by BushCo that "freedom and democracy" is on the march! My question is simple--by whose definition? A "For Sale" sign was hung on this nation when Bush & Company manipulated not only our system of elections, but the courts as well, when he was "appointed" to the seat of power; and he is now the man that tells us about freedom on the march.

Thru the WTO this consortium of ideologues that make up BushCo will attempt to do to China what it has done everywhere else, and that simply is to privatize, privatize, privatize. Wal-Mart is going strong in China as are all the other U.S. multinationals that are there. Now, U.S. companies are buying into Chinas banks that are trying to buy up U.S. companies. That's a win-win for multinationals and their investors, and a lose-lose for us and the Chinese people.

Welcome to "free market capitalism, freedom and democracy" BushCo style. I hope you find the following articles as interesting as what I have. And if what I have written here seems confusing, that's because this is rather confusing in terms of all the inter-connectedness of all these various right-wing organizations, their corporate connections and their nexus with government as they maintain a high level of "plausible deniability" in everything they do. Am I correct in how I am looking at this? I believe that I am, but time will most assuredly tell.

That said, I am certain of this: no one operates under a cloak of such secrecy as does BushCo if they do not have "things" to hide. And I am firmly convinced BushCo not only has a lot to try and hide, but it has even more to answer for.

Additional sources and references:

U.S. Firm to Control China Bank
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004May31.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer

Citigroup Buys 8.3 Percent PDB Stake
http://www.china.org.cn/english/BAT/52621.htm

Citigroup regroups
Citigroup unveiled "aggressive growth plans" for its consumer, retail, corporate and investment banking operations in China last month. During the launch of a new dual currency card with Shanghai Pudong Development Bank, Charles Prince, the group's Chairman and CEO (above), said that he was "very bullish" about the way the Chinese regulators and the government are dealing with the banking system. Citigroup is planning new offices in Beijing, and perhaps Guangzhou, and an investment banking presence will be built involving analysts specializing in Chinese companies. Prince did say, however, that the pace of any expansion depends on the opening of the market in line with China's accession to the WTO, and the group's ability to strike partnerships with Chinese institutions. So far, Citibank has expressed interest in taking an equity stake in China Construction Bank as part of the Chinese bank's IPO expected to take place early next year.
http://www.bankerme.com/bme/2004/mar..._inbrief.asp#2

But the political debate about China is lagging behind events on the ground. The $18 billion bid for Unocal by the China National Offshore Oil Corporation (CNOOC), China's third-largest oil company, was merely the latest and by far the biggest move by a Chinese company to buy a formidable American company.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/24/bu...gewanted=print

[W*GS]

Originally Posted by §Pide®

where did I say it would be overnight ?

The longer it takes, the less favourable it is for China, due to those demographic changes I mentioned.

Originally Posted by §Pide®

you do realize there are more People in China under the age of 14 then all of America ? ...China has to expand

I couldn't find exact numbers in a quick search, but yes, there are about the same number of Chinese 0-14 as all Americans. However, the Chinese population is the most rapidly aging on the planet, due mostly to their one-child policy. Their population will start to drop, and by mid-century, it will probably have a median age higher than the US'. I don't know that for sure.

That tells me that China is going to be far more consumed with the wrenching changes that will bring to engage in a war with the US.

Originally Posted by §Pide®

Only because of our Sanctions ........

Why hasn't the trade with Canada, Europe, et.al. made Cuba rich? Because their whole system is totally effed thanks to Castro.

Originally Posted by §Pide®

Besides Cuba would make a good Military out post for China ......

How would they keep it supplied?

Originally Posted by §Pide®

.... wow .America is the Biggest comsumer of Energy , bar none , the point wouldnt be to take Oil , the point would be to regulate our consumption .....

Why would they choose to destroy our economy if they want us to keep using oil as much as we do? If you want to control our use of oil, you don't attack us, you gain control of the Middle East.

[W*GS]

Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN

Buy America — China does just that with BushCo's help
[...]The Carlyle Group is a "group" of investors.[...]

Now that you've mentioned Carlyle, what's up with that Carlyle/Soros connection you keep ignoring?

[Spider]

Originally Posted by W*GS

The longer it takes, the less favourable it is for China, due to those demographic changes I mentioned.

hmm speculation

I couldn't find exact numbers in a quick search, but yes, there are about the same number of Chinese 0-14 as all Americans. However, the Chinese population is the most rapidly aging on the planet, due mostly to their one-child policy. Their population will start to drop, and by mid-century, it will probably have a median age higher than the US'. I don't know that for sure.

could be ......


It isnt so much destroying our Economy , I told you the # 1 reason , yet you focus on the Fringe benefits if you will , the # 1 Reason is Taiwan , the others you have focused on would be reasons , but not the primary reasons ......
I even gave you Anti Session law , yet you completely treat as if it were a 800 pound gorrila ........ i wonder why ?

[Spider]

Here it is again W*GS http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4314993.stm
This again is the #1 reason ....... While it is easier for you to focus on secondary motives , this is my #1 reason why China will go to war .......

[W*GS]

Originally Posted by §Pide®

Here it is again W*GS http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4314993.stm
This again is the #1 reason ....... While it is easier for you to focus on secondary motives , this is my #1 reason why China will go to war .......

Passage of the anti-secession law was a huge strategic mistake on China's part.

Can you tell me one of the reactions to it?

[Spider]

Originally Posted by W*GS

Passage of the anti-secession law was a huge strategic mistake on China's part.

Can you tell me one of the reactions to it?

All the details havent been released that I am aware of , untill then kinda hard to judge isnt it ?
well outside of Knee jerk reactions ......... But the over all jist of the Bill is pretty clear ......