Gary Horton (Scouts, Inc) on Shanny

[bloodsunday]

I was just on ESPN.com's chat with Gary Horton of Scouts, Inc and I posted a question to him:

AJ (Denver): Gary, Speaking of speculation and high goals, why is Mike Shanahan so widely criticized? Is he just a lightning rod for the media? Denver made a lot of highly publicized moves this offseason, but most of them really don't warrant the attention they get (Rice, Clarett, Dayne). Let me put it this way, Bill Belichik brings in D Terrell and its a "coy" move, Mike Shanahan brings him and its just another "turd" on the Denver roster. Why is that?

Gary Horton: (11:38 AM ET ) That's actually a very fair question, AJ. I think the answer is probably partially b/c Shanahan is perceived to have all the power and personnel moves, but he is not having the success on the field that Belichick is having. This limits his genius tag. Too many people make a big deal out of Shanahan not being able to have great success since Elway. Now, every move they make in personnel seems to be a comparision to the Elway days. As a perfect example, it was an organizational decision to bring in Jake Plummer, but yet every one wants to tie Jake's success or lack thereof to Shanahan. I happen to think Mike is a smart personnel guy who makes sound decisions, but the Broncos just haven't won enough on the field to keep everybody happy. Because their struggles coincided with the retirement of Elway, it's easy to assume that he was the key to their win and not a coach. However, in my opinion, there is nobody else in the NFL that can get more out of this roster than Shanahan. In the post Elway era, this has still been a very competetive football team in a very tough division.

---

I guess the answer (winning) was self-evident. But I just don't understand why people are so naive. Does anyone believe that if Tom Brady retired or got hurt today that the Patriots would not INSTANTLY drop to Denver's level (or worse)? The only difference between them is that Shanny signed on with Denver in the winter of Elway's career and Bellichik lucked out on a 6th round pick that he will have for virtually his entire career?

I take a little heart in knowing that thousands of football fans read this and perhaps have a slightly different perspective (from a credible source) of Shanny and the Denver organization now. It just makes me sick that people have villified this organization.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

[fontaine]

Originally Posted by bloodsunday

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Yeah, there's loads of coaches who were labelled as QB Gurus, or offensive masterminds (like Shanny) but don't catch as much heat because of other distracting issues.

Such as Brian Billick who was supposed to a QB Guru and offensive mastermind. Let's see, he got rid of Dilfer, brought in Grbac and failed, brought in Redman and failed, tried in between stop gaps like Tony Banks and failed, and brought in Boller and has failed so far. The ravens have flat out sucked in their passing game and QB performance.

But luckily for Billick, his team keep the media occupied with their frequent run ins with the law like Jamal setting up a deal for a mountain of coke, Ray Ray being an acessory to a murder, Suggs etc etc.

The biggest problem the media seem to have with Shanny though, is that he's one of the longest tenured coaches with the same team. Bill Cowher catches the same flack because he's been with the Steeler's so long.

[Tombstone RJ]

Originally Posted by bloodsunday

I was just on ESPN.com's chat with Gary Horton of Scouts, Inc and I posted a question to him:

AJ (Denver): Gary, Speaking of speculation and high goals, why is Mike Shanahan so widely criticized? Is he just a lightning rod for the media? Denver made a lot of highly publicized moves this offseason, but most of them really don't warrant the attention they get (Rice, Clarett, Dayne). Let me put it this way, Bill Belichik brings in D Terrell and its a "coy" move, Mike Shanahan brings him and its just another "turd" on the Denver roster. Why is that?

Gary Horton: (11:38 AM ET ) That's actually a very fair question, AJ. I think the answer is probably partially b/c Shanahan is perceived to have all the power and personnel moves, but he is not having the success on the field that Belichick is having. This limits his genius tag. Too many people make a big deal out of Shanahan not being able to have great success since Elway. Now, every move they make in personnel seems to be a comparision to the Elway days. As a perfect example, it was an organizational decision to bring in Jake Plummer, but yet every one wants to tie Jake's success or lack thereof to Shanahan. I happen to think Mike is a smart personnel guy who makes sound decisions, but the Broncos just haven't won enough on the field to keep everybody happy. Because their struggles coincided with the retirement of Elway, it's easy to assume that he was the key to their win and not a coach. However, in my opinion, there is nobody else in the NFL that can get more out of this roster than Shanahan. In the post Elway era, this has still been a very competetive football team in a very tough division.

---

I guess the answer (winning) was self-evident. But I just don't understand why people are so naive. Does anyone believe that if Tom Brady retired or got hurt today that the Patriots would not INSTANTLY drop to Denver's level (or worse)? The only difference between them is that Shanny signed on with Denver in the winter of Elway's career and Bellichik lucked out on a 6th round pick that he will have for virtually his entire career?

I take a little heart in knowing that thousands of football fans read this and perhaps have a slightly different perspective (from a credible source) of Shanny and the Denver organization now. It just makes me sick that people have villified this organization.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Whether its justified or not, Shanny bears the burden of being blamed for the Broncos lack of recent success in the playoffs. I have been a staunch Shanny supporter in the past, but now even I'm changing my toon to a degree. The Broncos need to win a playoff game period.

[DBroncos4life]

Yep when you win it all thats all fans want. Most people on here don't seem happy with making the playoffs at all and I've seen some that say they would rather blow up the roster then face another 10-6 season.

[KillerBronco#76]

always nice to see someone actualy giving a little credit to shanahan.

[Jason in LA]

The standards of winning have been raised, which is good and bad. It's good because there is a strong effort every year to win, and that's produced a competitive team every year. Back to back 10 win seasons is nothing to hang our heads at. The Broncos have been in the playoff hunt each of the past four years.

The problem is they aren't going as far as we think they should be, and we are all upset over it, and rightfully so. They are not reaching the standards that they have set for themselves. It's not from a lack of trying. A little luck is involved, and they have been an unlucky team. There have also been a few really bad decision (Carter, IHOP, Griese's contract).

I've always been a Shanny supporter, and I hope he's there for a very long time. But even I know that they have to get past the level of just being competitive. They've become what the Dolphins were a couple of years back. That's not good enough.

I stated before that I think Shanny has gone back to what works. He didn't go after the big name free agent this year. He went back to taking a bunch of guys with a lot to prove, like he did before the Super Bowl run.

Because of this standard we all have something to look forward to. We are looking forward to a Super Bowl run, like each year. Think any faider fan is looking forward to a Super Bowl run? They'll be happy with an 8-8 season. There are many teams that would be happy with an 8-8 season. I'd hate it if that's all I had to root for.

[Tombstone RJ]

It still all hangs on the QB. Plummer is going to have make less mistakes.

[fontaine]

Originally Posted by DBroncos4life

Yep when you win it all thats all fans want. Most people on here don't seem happy with making the playoffs at all and I've seen some that say they would rather blow up the roster then face another 10-6 season.

Actually I'm happy enough because I don't support the Redskins!
Those guys have it real bad.

[DBroncos4life]

My only beef is that "egg" we always seem to lay in the middle of the season. Most of the time we start off great then go to the crapper. We find away to not do that we get to 11 or 12 wins a year.

[Traveler]

I'm interested in seeing how NE does now that both their coordinators are gone. This will determine if Belicheck (sp?) should really be given the credit he so richly gets now.

As for Shanahan, he on a two years leash as far as I'm concerned. Thing is, what I might think or want doesn't matter.

That said, if he can't get this team back into the upper eschelon after 8 years, it's time to try someone else.

[DBroncos4life]

I know Mike wasn't the greatest coach with the Faiders but I don't remember him ever going 6 years below .500 either. Old Bill is a great coach but its not like everything he touches turns to gold either.

[bloodsunday]

Originally Posted by fontaine

Such as Brian Billick who was supposed to a QB Guru and offensive mastermind. Let's see, he got rid of Dilfer, brought in Grbac and failed, brought in Redman and failed, tried in between stop gaps like Tony Banks and failed, and brought in Boller and has failed so far. The ravens have flat out sucked in their passing game and QB performance.

Rep for that! There is absolutely no heat on this guy and his team has underperformed more than the Broncos since their Super Bowl. As you mentioned, he can't even find a starting QB, let alone a Pro Bowler.

[fontaine]

Originally Posted by papi728

That said, if he can't get this team back into the upper eschelon after 8 years, it's time to try someone else.

There are about 10 or so teams that fall into this category. Teams like the Jets, Jags, Broncos, Seahawks, vikings etc etc are just in a holding pattern waiting to draft two/three key players that turn out to be studs and push the team into being elite.

The problem is there are only a handfull (maybe less) of these players every year and New England bagged two great ones in Seymour/Brady recently.

[bloodsunday]

Originally Posted by fontaine

The biggest problem the media seem to have with Shanny though, is that he's one of the longest tenured coaches with the same team. Bill Cowher catches the same flack because he's been with the Steeler's so long.

Relative to their success (2 Super Bowls versus 3 losses in the AFC Title game AT HOME), Shanny catches way more heat. But, I agree that his tenure has something to do with it. I think Shanny has taken Elway's place as the most recognizable figure in Denver, which comes with some intense heat.

[bloodsunday]

Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ

The Broncos need to win a playoff game period.

I think that is a very fair comment. I think Shanny would acknowledge that himself.

I just don't get why people aren't smart enough to actually think and analyze the situation before jumping on the Shanny Hate Wagon. The guy is the best coach this football team MAY EVER SEE. Scary. If we throw Shanny overboard, then how hard will it be without a Hall of Fame Coach and a Hall of Fame QB?

[bloodsunday]

Originally Posted by DBroncos4life

Yep when you win it all thats all fans want. Most people on here don't seem happy with making the playoffs at all and I've seen some that say they would rather blow up the roster then face another 10-6 season.

Clearly those people have not been watching the San Fran 49ers lately. Everyone likes to point to Baltimore as the poster child for that approach (19 rookies 2 years ago), but are they really any better than Denver right now?

[bloodsunday]

Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ

It still all hangs on the QB. Plummer is going to have make less mistakes.

Again, fair. Also something that the organization (and Plummer) would likely acknowledge publicly.

[bloodsunday]

Originally Posted by papi728

I'm interested in seeing how NE does now that both their coordinators are gone. This will determine if Belicheck (sp?) should really be given the credit he so richly gets now.

Maybe. I think Brady is more the linch pin here. Over time the combination of a HOF coach and a HOF QB is usually the right ingredients for success. Coordinators come and go a little more frequently. But you are right that this poses a challenge that NE hasn't had to deal with yet. They didn't even bring in a true OC, they are doing it by committee!

Originally Posted by papi728

As for Shanahan, he on a two years leash as far as I'm concerned. Thing is, what I might think or want doesn't matter.

I think Bowlen will keep Shanny as long as he can. Shanny is a top 5 coach in this league no doubt. The leash should be on Plummer.

Originally Posted by papi728

That said, if he can't get this team back into the upper eschelon after 8 years, it's time to try someone else.

I don't believe that because coaches as good as Shanny just don't come along that often. We may never see a coach as good as him again. As we have seen, its tough to step down from HOF to even above average.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by bloodsunday

I think that is a very fair comment. I think Shanny would acknowledge that himself.

I just don't get why people aren't smart enough to actually think and analyze the situation before jumping on the Shanny Hate Wagon. The guy is the best coach this football team MAY EVER SEE. Scary. If we throw Shanny overboard, then how hard will it be without a Hall of Fame Coach and a Hall of Fame QB?

I would've said the best football coach we've had thus far. Semantics, I know.

Never know what's in the future and I certainly can see this team without him. Not all change is necessarily bad. I'd also like to say I'm not hating on him, just tired of the mediocrity. He's been a great coach for the team and the fans, but this is a what have you done for me lately profession. And lately, he doesn't have much to hang his hat on since the SB years.

[NFLBRONCO]

I've been hard on Shanny myself lately but, the biggest problem really is we need a legit QB LT DE WR FS to get us over the hump we LACK playmakers in key areas.

[Tombstone RJ]

Originally Posted by bloodsunday

Relative to their success (2 Super Bowls versus 3 losses in the AFC Title game AT HOME), Shanny catches way more heat. But, I agree that his tenure has something to do with it. I think Shanny has taken Elway's place as the most recognizable figure in Denver, which comes with some intense heat.

I don't think that change is good, just for change stake. That is, I don't want the Broncos to dump Shanny just to shake things up. But, if Shanny continues to to lose in the first round of the playoffs, and he continues to keep the Broncos at mediocrity, then to me, he is no better than Bill Cowher of the Steelers. I've never been a big fan of Bill Cowher becuase he has never proven anything to me that says he's an elite coach. Yet, the Steelers have stuck with him and stuck with him and stuck with him. The Steelers have finally hit pay dirt with Roethlisberger and now Cowher may appear to be an elite coach, not because he is an elite coach, but because he has an elite QB and a good team to win with.

I don't want the Broncos to go through year after year of being OK before they finally realize they do need either a new HC and system, or an elite QB.

Is Plummer the guy? IMO, I'm not seeing it. He makes too many stupid mistakes. Like it or not, I'm blaming this on Shanny.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by NFLBRONCO

I've been hard on Shanny myself lately but, the biggest problem really is we need a legit QB LT DE WR FS to get us over the hump we LACK playmakers in key areas.

Exactly! And that goes back to Shanny, the personnel guy! That's what been holding this team back IMO. Kind of a double edge sword. He's a coach good enough to keep us competative. But that hurts us when trying to acquire the blue chip talent we need to take it to the next level. If the personnel side were better, ie., missing on too many early round choices, we wouldn't be having this dicussion.

I do think Sundquist has elevated the personnel side to the extent he can. I wonder what kind of players would be on the roster if he had complete control?

[bloodsunday]

Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ

I don't think that change is good, just for change stake. That is, I don't want the Broncos to dump Shanny just to shake things up.

I agree. As long as Shanny is a top coach, he should stay. Maybe his role (as GM) needs to be revisisted. He'd probably leave if that happened, but I'd rather that then flat out fire him.

Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ

But, if Shanny continues to to lose in the first round of the playoffs, and he continues to keep the Broncos at mediocrity, then to me, he is no better than Bill Cowher of the Steelers. I've never been a big fan of Bill Cowher becuase he has never proven anything to me that says he's an elite coach. Yet, the Steelers have stuck with him and stuck with him and stuck with him. The Steelers have finally hit pay dirt with Roethlisberger and now Cowher may appear to be an elite coach, not because he is an elite coach, but because he has an elite QB and a good team to win with.

Couple of points here. First of all, I find this to be a contradiction. You say that the Pittsburgh is stuck with Cowher, then you say that they have it it big because Cowher has a good QB and good team? If Cowher is so bad then you'd have to say he is holding Pittsburgh back somehow. Right? Secondly, I am not ready to annoint Roehhlisbergererererererere the best QB in the NFL just yet. He played well in the role the Steelers gave him last year, but his production tailed off when it mattered most. He appears to have a bright future, but we won't know for at least another season or two. That team rode its opportunistic defense last year. Kurt Warner (and even our own Griese) serves as an example that one year of success is too little to judge.

Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ

I don't want the Broncos to go through year after year of being OK before they finally realize they do need either a new HC and system, or an elite QB.

Is Plummer the guy? IMO, I'm not seeing it. He makes too many stupid mistakes. Like it or not, I'm blaming this on Shanny.

I have been pulling my hair out with Plummer. I look at it like this: Is Shanny an elite coach in the NFL? Yes. Is Plummer an elite QB in the NFL? No. If you are a believer (like me) that this combination is the key ingredient to success, then you must be as frustrated as me that they continue to ignore this position year after year. Plummer would be fine with me as a stop gap QB. But to be a stop gap implies that you have a plan to succeed him and we don't!

[bloodsunday]

Originally Posted by papi728

Exactly! And that goes back to Shanny, the personnel guy! That's what been holding this team back IMO. Kind of a double edge sword. He's a coach good enough to keep us competative. But that hurts us when trying to acquire the blue chip talent we need to take it to the next level. If the personnel side were better, ie., missing on too many early round choices, we wouldn't be having this dicussion.

I do think Sundquist has elevated the personnel side to the extent he can. I wonder what kind of players would be on the roster if he had complete control?

There is a grain of truth to all this, but there is also some misconception. First of all, the Broncos are typically working with less than most teams (late picks and little salary cap money). Considering the number of moves (and even the quality) we made and the resources we had available (after relinquishing our #1 pick) this offseason, you have to be a bit amazed. As far as drafting is concerned, I think that has been sufficiently covered on this board. The general conclusion seems to be that Denver is on par (maybe better) than the NFL average in the draft. They need to improve, especially at key positions (WR, DB, DL), but all in all they are pretty good.

I'd be interested to hear what someone like Wabbit has to say about Shanny and his power within the organization. I simply don't know. The perception is that he has it all and even that his a bit of a dictator. The organization seems to be screaming at the top of their lungs to anyone that will listen that Sundquist's role is growing and he is taking a lot off of Shanny's plate. The biggest issue I see here is that Shanny is the coach first and the GM second. Therefore he has a tendency to make personnel decisions based on winning now and not down the road, where a true GM would be more likely to balance the long and short term better.

[rbackfactory80]

Originally Posted by bloodsunday

I was just on ESPN.com's chat with Gary Horton of Scouts, Inc and I posted a question to him:

AJ (Denver): Gary, Speaking of speculation and high goals, why is Mike Shanahan so widely criticized? Is he just a lightning rod for the media? Denver made a lot of highly publicized moves this offseason, but most of them really don't warrant the attention they get (Rice, Clarett, Dayne). Let me put it this way, Bill Belichik brings in D Terrell and its a "coy" move, Mike Shanahan brings him and its just another "turd" on the Denver roster. Why is that?

Gary Horton: (11:38 AM ET ) That's actually a very fair question, AJ. I think the answer is probably partially b/c Shanahan is perceived to have all the power and personnel moves, but he is not having the success on the field that Belichick is having. This limits his genius tag. Too many people make a big deal out of Shanahan not being able to have great success since Elway. Now, every move they make in personnel seems to be a comparision to the Elway days. As a perfect example, it was an organizational decision to bring in Jake Plummer, but yet every one wants to tie Jake's success or lack thereof to Shanahan. I happen to think Mike is a smart personnel guy who makes sound decisions, but the Broncos just haven't won enough on the field to keep everybody happy. Because their struggles coincided with the retirement of Elway, it's easy to assume that he was the key to their win and not a coach. However, in my opinion, there is nobody else in the NFL that can get more out of this roster than Shanahan. In the post Elway era, this has still been a very competetive football team in a very tough division.

---

I guess the answer (winning) was self-evident. But I just don't understand why people are so naive. Does anyone believe that if Tom Brady retired or got hurt today that the Patriots would not INSTANTLY drop to Denver's level (or worse)? The only difference between them is that Shanny signed on with Denver in the winter of Elway's career and Bellichik lucked out on a 6th round pick that he will have for virtually his entire career?

I take a little heart in knowing that thousands of football fans read this and perhaps have a slightly different perspective (from a credible source) of Shanny and the Denver organization now. It just makes me sick that people have villified this organization.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

To tell you the truth I think if Brady left N.E. then they would easily drop to Denver's level. His receivers are not great and his running game or lack of running game was with him for two super bowls. Everytime it is 3rd and long what happens? Brady drops back and fires a strike to one of his many overachieving receivers. His is so clutch when it counts. Anyway if Brady was not there I could not see them with more then 9-10 wins. The only team that truly cant do anything against their defense is the colts and that is mental.