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Old 01-24-2005, 10:20 PM   #1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orange 4 life
apparently some people are bound and determined to blame the qb despite that clearly not being the issue.

Despite the qb "clearly" not being the issue? Are you kidding me?

You don't throw a league leading 20 interceptions in a season and get away scott free with "clearly" not being the issue. And if throwing 20 INTs isn't a problem, then what is?

Jake OWNS each and every interception he throws. Nobody else owns them. Jake owns them.

I gave Brian Griese the benefit of a doubt because his blind side protection was a back-up center converted into a left tackle, and by mid-season his receiving corpse wat thinner than Pat Bowlen's hair, using 7th and 8th string guys. Jake has none of these excuses. He's got great protection. He's got great mobility. He's got a good receiving crew to work with, though he could use that elusive third wide-out... but it's gotten nowhere near as bad as what Griese had to work with some Novembers.

But this isn't about what Griese had or didn't have. This isn't about, and shouldn't be about Griese at all. This is about Jake.

I don't believe we're going to win a Superbowl with him. I can't watch game after game of inconsistent ball and just homer it up that all these turnovers don't matter. They do! They cost us momentum. They cost us game plans. They cost us points. And they eventually cost us seasons.

I get it if you like Jake. He's a hell of a likable guy. But don't tell me that he's "clearly" not the problem. That's just homer talk. He CLEARLY has problems. He's leading the league in interceptions. That is CLEARLY a problem.

I think he's as steady a caretaker as money can buy. A fallback to the Craig Morton days. He'll go out of Denver with a favorable memory. But unless something drastic happens up in his head, it won't be as a champion. That's just my feeling based on the two years that we've seen. Maybe the third year's a charm. I wish that his contract was structured so that we'd find out if it is before we had to commit many more years to a guy who still hasn't proven that he's left his Arizona problems behind.
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Old 01-24-2005, 10:34 PM   #2
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No, I dont really see Jake as the problem.

I see him as a victim who is being brought down with him.

Jake clearly has his faults, but I dont consider him at fault for this disappointing season.

We have too many faults to point at one guy.
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Old 01-24-2005, 10:36 PM   #3
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I always thought the game wasn't bigger then one player. Teams win and teams lose.
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Old 01-24-2005, 10:46 PM   #4
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I can't blame anyone for being down on Jake. He had an up and down season. But, no one can challenge me when I say that the team let HIM more than the other way around... much more. Jake had a bad game at San Diego. Aside from that, he played pretty well all season long. He also tends to play his best ball during crunch time.

He moves our offense very well. But, if you're looking for a Mike Vick type, he's not the guy. He's not going to take the team on his back. But, he clearly did enough to get us into the playoffs. If we wouldn't have pi$$ed away a couple of games that he put us in position to win, we would have won the division.

I DO see us winning a championship with Jake, but I can see why people would doubt him. He's not perfect. But, give us a fking defense that can keep us in games, and he'll make big plays when he has to. This team should be built around a running game and a defense. There are only a few hall of fame caliber QBs in the league right now and we're not lucky enough to have one. But I do believe we have a guy with enough heart and skills to get the job done.
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Old 01-24-2005, 10:48 PM   #5
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Franchise QB dont grow on trees.

Aside from the Seahawks, We had the highest number of dropped balls in the AFC.
And compare that to the other teams deep in the playoffs.

http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/...=232&Submit=Go

Its rather symbolic.
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Old 01-24-2005, 10:49 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Popps
He also tends to play his best ball during crunch time.
I don't know about crunch time... Seems to me he plays his best ball when the game is already on its way to being a lost cause.

And to the people saying it's about team, and not about Jake... I recognize that there are problems elsewhere on the team. But that doesn't do anything to address Jake's problems that are in his head.
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Old 01-24-2005, 10:50 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Freekofnature
Aside from the Seahawks, We had the highest number of dropped balls in the AFC.

Doesn't that speak a little about the accuracy of the balls being thrown?
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Old 01-24-2005, 10:51 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John
Despite the qb "clearly" not being the issue? Are you kidding me?

You don't throw a league leading 20 interceptions in a season and get away scott free with "clearly" not being the issue. And if throwing 20 INTs isn't a problem, then what is?

Jake OWNS each and every interception he throws. Nobody else owns them. Jake owns them.

I gave Brian Griese the benefit of a doubt because his blind side protection was a back-up center converted into a left tackle, and by mid-season his receiving corpse wat thinner than Pat Bowlen's hair, using 7th and 8th string guys. Jake has none of these excuses. He's got great protection. He's got great mobility. He's got a good receiving crew to work with, though he could use that elusive third wide-out... but it's gotten nowhere near as bad as what Griese had to work with some Novembers.

But this isn't about what Griese had or didn't have. This isn't about, and shouldn't be about Griese at all. This is about Jake.

I don't believe we're going to win a Superbowl with him. I can't watch game after game of inconsistent ball and just homer it up that all these turnovers don't matter. They do! They cost us momentum. They cost us game plans. They cost us points. And they eventually cost us seasons.

I get it if you like Jake. He's a hell of a likable guy. But don't tell me that he's "clearly" not the problem. That's just homer talk. He CLEARLY has problems. He's leading the league in interceptions. That is CLEARLY a problem.

I think he's as steady a caretaker as money can buy. A fallback to the Craig Morton days. He'll go out of Denver with a favorable memory. But unless something drastic happens up in his head, it won't be as a champion. That's just my feeling based on the two years that we've seen. Maybe the third year's a charm. I wish that his contract was structured so that we'd find out if it is before we had to commit many more years to a guy who still hasn't proven that he's left his Arizona problems behind.
Everyone has their opinion on Jake. What I want to know is whether or not you consulted with Bob to prepare your avatar. If you're down on the guy, fine, but why act like a frickin' Chef fan about it? Sorry, but it's really gotten under my skin.
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Old 01-24-2005, 10:55 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John
Doesn't that speak a little about the accuracy of the balls being thrown?
maybe so or maybe not taco, but truthfully if when you get hands on the balls you catch it. Good WRs do that. But then again those are good WRs who do their jobs.
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Old 01-24-2005, 11:05 PM   #10
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i dont even know what to say anymore.

ive gone through the issue so many times and you people just dont want to see it.

okay, one more time.

1) he proved a year ago that he can play relatively mistake free football if given favorable circumstances.
2) nothing he did in arizona matters.
3) his int.% this year was identical to vick and roethlisberger, two qb's who's teams were in the conference championships.
4) his 20 int's were coupled with bronco record 27 td's and 4000+ yards passing
5) we lost mccaffrey (obviously not a huge loss, but still MUCH better at #3 if healthy than darius "cant catch the important one yet" watts), sharpe, and portis.
6) because of those losses, the media and fans BOTH said we'd be lucky to finish middle of the pack. we finished top 5.
7) we retooled the line, and are getting manhandled on the interior, which is affecting our ability to run in the redzone and contributing to an inordinate number of passes being batted down at the line.
8) jake does NOT "own" all the interceptions. sorry pal, but hitting his own receivers in BOTH hands is all he can do. remember san diego? the passes to carswell and putzier are "owned" by those two receivers, since THEY are the SOLE reason those passes were intercepted.
9) interception TOTALS are a reflection of pass attempts. the reason roethlisberger had less int's and the same % is that he threw less passes. he was behind less often, and in obvious passing situations less often.
10) our defense was by and large quite good, but flat fell apart in a few games which contributed to us having to pass most every down. remember atlanta? remember how many times we ran in the second half?
11) our special teams let us down all season, which of course means we played on longer fields consistently.
12) our defense had key injuries to pryce, ellis, walls, and middlebrooks, and wasnt deep enough to recover. make all the excuses you want, but there is NO excuse for giving up 35 points in ONE HALF.
13) examine the games we lossed, and see the REALITY of WHY we lost.

a)we lost to jville because griffin fumbled, or because shanny chose to run that last fateful play. take your pick, but it wasnt plummers fault. true, the defense won that game, but when the game was on the line jake got us in position to win
b)we lost to oakland because our defense friggin collapsed in the 4th quarter, and/or because watts couldnt catch a perfectly thrown pass in the endzone. take your pick, but with the game on the line jake got us in position to win.
c) we lost to san diego because carswell and putzier tipped perfectly thrown passes to the defense, because we called that play from the five, and ultimately because watts once again couldnt catch the pass that wouldve erased the int and put us in field goal position to win the game. part of the blame on plummer for choosing the fade pass, but more on the int's (that the receivers "owned") and the dropped pass.

what wouldve happened had those games gone our way?
we wouldve won the division, played at home, never seen indy in the playoffs, and who knows?
all that WITH the key injuries on defense.

saying we cant win with plummer is BLATANTLY and CLEARLY ridiculous.
look at reality.

jake

ps- incidentally, we wouldve won with morton were it not for SIX friggin turnovers and a butch johnson td catch that wouldve been overturned if replay was in effect. just thought you should know that. so much for that analogy huh?
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Old 01-24-2005, 11:08 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Popps
I can't blame anyone for being down on Jake. He had an up and down season. But, no one can challenge me when I say that the team let HIM more than the other way around... much more. Jake had a bad game at San Diego. Aside from that, he played pretty well all season long. He also tends to play his best ball during crunch time.

He moves our offense very well. But, if you're looking for a Michael Vick type, he's not the guy. He's not going to take the team on his back. But, he clearly did enough to get us into the playoffs. If we wouldn't have pi$$ed away a couple of games that he put us in position to win, we would have won the division.

I DO see us winning a championship with Jake, but I can see why people would doubt him. He's not perfect. But, give us a fking defense that can keep us in games, and he'll make big plays when he has to. This team should be built around a running game and a defense. There are only a few hall of fame caliber QBs in the league right now and we're not lucky enough to have one. But I do believe we have a guy with enough heart and skills to get the job done.
im overjoyed.
thank God at least some people get it.
at least some people can see reality.

that ANYONE see's it differently is flat out mind boggling.

well said as usual popps!!
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Old 01-24-2005, 11:08 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big E
Everyone has their opinion on Jake. What I want to know is whether or not you consulted with Bob to prepare your avatar. If you're down on the guy, fine, but why act like a frickin' Chef fan about it? Sorry, but it's really gotten under my skin.

I'm only doing what I've done since I started doing this stuff... If people can't gut it up and take it for what it's worth, that's on them. It's just my visual editorial. If Drew Litton can do it...


















No, I didn't ask Bob for permission...
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Old 01-24-2005, 11:09 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orange 4 life
im overjoyed.
thank God at least some people get it.
at least some people can see reality.

that ANYONE see's it differently is flat out mind boggling.

well said as usual popps!!


You've got to be kidding me.
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Old 01-24-2005, 11:09 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orange 4 life
i dont even know what to say anymore.

ive gone through the issue so many times and you people just dont want to see it.

okay, one more time.

1) he proved a year ago that he can play relatively mistake free football if given favorable circumstances.
2) nothing he did in arizona matters.
3) his int.% this year was identical to vick and roethlisberger, two qb's who's teams were in the conference championships.
4) his 20 int's were coupled with bronco record 27 td's and 4000+ yards passing
5) we lost mccaffrey (obviously not a huge loss, but still MUCH better at #3 if healthy than darius "cant catch the important one yet" watts), sharpe, and portis.
6) because of those losses, the media and fans BOTH said we'd be lucky to finish middle of the pack. we finished top 5.
7) we retooled the line, and are getting manhandled on the interior, which is affecting our ability to run in the redzone and contributing to an inordinate number of passes being batted down at the line.
8) jake does NOT "own" all the interceptions. sorry pal, but hitting his own receivers in BOTH hands is all he can do. remember san diego? the passes to carswell and putzier are "owned" by those two receivers, since THEY are the SOLE reason those passes were intercepted.
9) interception TOTALS are a reflection of pass attempts. the reason roethlisberger had less int's and the same % is that he threw less passes. he was behind less often, and in obvious passing situations less often.
10) our defense was by and large quite good, but flat fell apart in a few games which contributed to us having to pass most every down. remember atlanta? remember how many times we ran in the second half?
11) our special teams let us down all season, which of course means we played on longer fields consistently.
12) our defense had key injuries to pryce, ellis, walls, and middlebrooks, and wasnt deep enough to recover. make all the excuses you want, but there is NO excuse for giving up 35 points in ONE HALF.
13) examine the games we lossed, and see the REALITY of WHY we lost.

a)we lost to jville because griffin fumbled, or because shanny chose to run that last fateful play. take your pick, but it wasnt plummers fault. true, the defense won that game, but when the game was on the line jake got us in position to win
b)we lost to oakland because our defense friggin collapsed in the 4th quarter, and/or because watts couldnt catch a perfectly thrown pass in the endzone. take your pick, but with the game on the line jake got us in position to win.
c) we lost to san diego because carswell and putzier tipped perfectly thrown passes to the defense, because we called that play from the five, and ultimately because watts once again couldnt catch the pass that wouldve erased the int and put us in field goal position to win the game. part of the blame on plummer for choosing the fade pass, but more on the int's (that the receivers "owned") and the dropped pass.

what wouldve happened had those games gone our way?
we wouldve won the division, played at home, never seen indy in the playoffs, and who knows?
all that WITH the key injuries on defense.

saying we cant win with plummer is BLATANTLY and CLEARLY ridiculous.
look at reality.

jake

ps- incidentally, we wouldve won with morton were it not for SIX friggin turnovers and a butch johnson td catch that wouldve been overturned if replay was in effect. just thought you should know that. so much for that analogy huh?
Loss of SHannon and Portis might attribute to that. Relatively young and raw WRs with a WR who is getting rather old.
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Old 01-24-2005, 11:10 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John
Doesn't that speak a little about the accuracy of the balls being thrown?
ummm, no.

see, thats why theyre called DROPPED balls.
see, that implies that the balls were thrown well and then DROPPED, hence the phrase DROPPED balls!!!
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Old 01-24-2005, 11:16 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Taco John
You've got to be kidding me.
holy Mary Mother of God!!!

READ THE POST.
mine and popps'!!

do you actually dispute whats said?

if so, get your head examined with everyone else who agrees with you.

unbelievable.

Last edited by orange 4 life; 01-25-2005 at 12:07 AM..
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Old 01-24-2005, 11:16 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by The Big E
What I want to know is whether or not you consulted with Bob to prepare your avatar.
All I can say is....

DANCE, FLAVA CLOWN, DANCE!
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Old 01-24-2005, 11:18 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Bob's Your Uncle
All I can say is....

DANCE, FLAVA CLOWN, DANCE!
LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!! rofl rofl
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Old 01-24-2005, 11:21 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by orange 4 life
ummm, no.

see, thats why theyre called DROPPED balls.
see, that implies that the balls were thrown well and then DROPPED, hence the phrase DROPPED balls!!!

Pretty much dropped balls come down to the BALL hitting the WR's HANDS then them dropping the ball. Otherwise known as something that could have been caught. Look at it this way right is to wrong like caught is to _ _ _ _ _ _ _
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Old 01-24-2005, 11:30 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orange 4 life
1) he proved a year ago that he can play relatively mistake free football if given favorable circumstances.

He proved last year that if he's on the shortest leash Shanahan can possibly put on him, he can manage a game for us... Unfortunately, he was injured in all of the games against our toughest opponents in the middle stretch, so we weren't able to see what he could do against those teams.

But who cares what he showed a year ago? What have you done for me lately? Jake still has more to prove than he doesn't.



Quote:
2) nothing he did in arizona matters.
It matters just as much as what he proved a year ago doesn't it? Actually, what happened to Jake in Arizona does matter, because it's part of his history. You can look at the things he did then and compare them with the things he does now. Which are a lot of the same things...



Quote:
3) his int.% this year was identical to vick and roethlisberger, two qb's who's teams were in the conference championships.
Jake wasn't in a Conference Championship, though. And he certainly wasn't the quarterback that either Vick or Roethlisberger are. I'm not sure this point really means anything.


Quote:
4) his 20 int's were coupled with bronco record 27 td's and 4000+ yards passing
Right alongside every other quarterback who's numbers were up due to the rule changes. The old records don't mean as much as they did. When Dan Marino's NFL record, and John Elway's franchise record are matched or broken in the same season, there's something more going on.


Quote:
5) we lost mccaffrey (obviously not a huge loss, but still MUCH better at #3 if healthy than darius "cant catch the important one yet" watts), sharpe, and portis.
We lost McCaffrey years ago. How is this even an issue in the Jake era? Jake's got Rod and Lelie. That's more than Brian really ever had throughout his tenure here, since Ed was injured in 2001.


Quote:
6) because of those losses, the media and fans BOTH said we'd be lucky to finish middle of the pack. we finished top 5.
Not sure what this means.

Quote:
7) we retooled the line, and are getting manhandled on the interior, which is affecting our ability to run in the redzone and contributing to an inordinate number of passes being batted down at the line.
Whatever. We didn't get manhandled on the interior. That's where we had our biggest problems, sure. But overall, we've had a very solid offensive line. Jake has little he can blame on these guys for.


Quote:
8) jake does NOT "own" all the interceptions. sorry pal, but hitting his own receivers in BOTH hands is all he can do. remember san diego? the passes to carswell and putzier are "owned" by those two receivers, since THEY are the SOLE reason those passes were intercepted.
The pass to Putzier was on Jake. It was a poorly thrown ball, and Putz had to reach to grab it. When your quarterback consistently leads his receivers too far, he will also consistently see those balls get tipped for interceptions. It's a problem I doubt we'll ever see go away, as it's one Jake has always had throughout his career. It didn't just develop this year. He's always had this tendancy.


Quote:
9) interception TOTALS are a reflection of pass attempts. the reason roethlisberger had less int's and the same % is that he threw less passes. he was behind less often, and in obvious passing situations less often.
It doesn't change the fact that Jake is throwing them like old men handing out hard candy in church. He's a guy that other teams can literally game plan that they'll get at least one pick a game from. They literally can count on it.


Quote:
10) our defense was by and large quite good, but flat fell apart in a few games which contributed to us having to pass most every down. remember atlanta? remember how many times we ran in the second half?
Whatever problems we have on the defensive side of the ball says nothing to why Jake leads his receivers too far, throws so many interceptions, and struggles to make things happen when he's forced to throw from the pocket.


Quote:
11) our special teams let us down all season, which of course means we played on longer fields consistently.
Indeed.

Quote:
12) our defense had key injuries to pryce, ellis, walls, and middlebrooks, and wasnt deep enough to recover. make all the excuses you want, but there is NO excuse for giving up 35 points in ONE HALF.
There's also no excuse for going three and out after the defense intercepts the ball in a playoff game.


Quote:
saying we cant win with plummer is BLATANTLY and CLEARLY ridiculous.

I think we can win some games with him. I don't think we're going to win many Championship round games with him. He's a liability in the clutch.


Quote:
look at reality.
I believe that I am. I'm not denying that Jake had a past in Arizona. I'm not denying that he is the interception leader in the NFL right now. I'm not denying that he leads his receivers. I'm not denying that he struggles mightily in the pocket. And I'm not denying that I'm disappointed in what we've got to show for him after two years.

The reality is, Jake hasn't blossomed into what we all hoped he would. He's still making the mistakes that he made in Arizona. He's a liability to a ball control gameplan, which is the foundation of Shanahan's offense. You can't turn the ball over like Trent Green at Deltha O'neal's birthday party all season long and expect that it'll all be ok.

Quote:
ps- incidentally, we wouldve won with morton were it not for SIX friggin turnovers and a butch johnson td catch that wouldve been overturned if replay was in effect. just thought you should know that. so much for that analogy huh?
The point was, we didn't win with Morton, so the analogy is good. But incidentally, it's nice to learn that it wasn't Morton's fault either.
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Old 01-24-2005, 11:31 PM   #21
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ummm, no.

see, thats why theyre called DROPPED balls.
see, that implies that the balls were thrown well and then DROPPED, hence the phrase DROPPED balls!!!

I saw a lot of dropped balls that were thrown poorly, and it was lucky the receiver stretched out enough to at least get a hand on it.
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Old 01-24-2005, 11:36 PM   #22
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Please, that happens to every WRs.

The fact that is we have a **** load of dropped balls and I have seen too many catchable passes being dropped at clutch moments and not.

I cant remember the countless times the WRs Montana and Elway had making those catches.

Then again those were WRs who did their jobs and were good.
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Old 01-24-2005, 11:38 PM   #23
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Ball controll offense TJ?

What happens when that running games becomes a liability? Maybe you should check out the games we lost. Look clearly at the rushing stats and the how the D did.

Seriously
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Old 01-24-2005, 11:39 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freekofnature
Please, that happens to every WRs.

The fact that is we have a **** load of dropped balls and I have seen too many catchable passes being dropped at clutch moments and not.

I cant remember the countless times the WRs Montana and Elway had making those catches.

Then again those were WRs who did their jobs and were good.

How many times did Jake throw a ball that was too far for Rod to catch? If it was all the young guys having this problem, you might have something. But since it's everyone, young and veteran alike, I think we might need to look at it as a symptom of another problem.
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Old 01-24-2005, 11:39 PM   #25
Taco John
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All Hail King Midas

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Originally Posted by Freekofnature
Ball controll offense TJ?

What happens when that running games becomes a liability? Maybe you should check out the games we lost. Look clearly at the rushing stats and the how the D did.

Seriously


Then you're laying it on Shanahan for trading Portis then?
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