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View Poll Results: Choke Job?
Big Time! 36 41.86%
Yes. 22 25.58%
No. 23 26.74%
Greatest Season Ever! All Hail Peyton Manning! 5 5.81%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-17-2005, 12:43 PM   #201
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Old 01-17-2005, 12:54 PM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenFan38
Let's last week what did we say the Broncos needed to do in order to defeat the Indianapolis Colts?

a.) Run the ball effectively.

b.) Control the clock

What did the New England Patriots do to defeat the Indianapolis Colts?

a.) They ran the ball effectively

b.) They controlled the clock
Not to mention Romeo throwing in that "Rush 3, drop 8" mixed with various blitzes. That seemed to scramble Payaton's mind.
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Old 01-17-2005, 01:13 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Anubis_Zyklon
Would of, could of means nothing as the score indicated something totally different. the Colts were in that game regardless of what YOU thought they could have done to the Colts Db's.

The Pats never trailed in the game...They did exactly what they wanted to do...Get a lead and kill the clock keeping the Colts O off the field and they did exactly that. The only time the Colts actually lined up and did what they normally do in terms of playing calling was at the end of the first half and they moved it right down the field. Nothing really could of, should of about it. The Pats ran it pretty much at will and passed it efficiently when they wanted to which turned out to be not very often cause they didn't need to.

That game was over the minute Dungy wanted to implement a conservative run first offensive game plan. Normally I would lay that on Manning cause he typically controls the play calling at the line but based on his post game comments when asked about why they didn't challenge the Pats down the field he responded with "we had run plays called when there was opportunities down the field..." which probably means they took the play calling out of his hands for this game as during the regular season he audibled from run plays into pass plays all the time.

I'm a huge Manning fan and will certainly admit he didn't do anything to take over and win that game but in all fairness it appears he just managed the game that he was given by the coach. If it turns out he was responsible for all the play calling then I will put it on his shoulders but the conservative nature of the game plan yesterday appears to be mostly Dungy.
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Old 01-17-2005, 01:32 PM   #204
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I won't go as far as to say Manning choked...(though I did vote that he did) but when you are the MVP of the league and the leader of your team you step up and show some fire and try to inspire these guys instead of looking like "oh no, here we go again"....a leader say "we aren't done until it's over"....I never saw that fire in his eyes or actions once yesterday.
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Old 01-17-2005, 01:39 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by NaptownChief
The Pats never trailed in the game...They did exactly what they wanted to do...Get a lead and kill the clock keeping the Colts O off the field and they did exactly that. The only time the Colts actually lined up and did what they normally do in terms of playing calling was at the end of the first half and they moved it right down the field. Nothing really could of, should of about it. The Pats ran it pretty much at will and passed it efficiently when they wanted to which turned out to be not very often cause they didn't need to.

That game was over the minute Dungy wanted to implement a conservative run first offensive game plan. Normally I would lay that on Manning cause he typically controls the play calling at the line but based on his post game comments when asked about why they didn't challenge the Pats down the field he responded with "we had run plays called when there was opportunities down the field..." which probably means they took the play calling out of his hands for this game as during the regular season he audibled from run plays into pass plays all the time.

I'm a huge Manning fan and will certainly admit he didn't do anything to take over and win that game but in all fairness it appears he just managed the game that he was given by the coach. If it turns out he was responsible for all the play calling then I will put it on his shoulders but the conservative nature of the game plan yesterday appears to be mostly Dungy.


although i agree that the Pats were controlling the game, it was never out of reach for a team like the Colts who averaged 35 points a game this year. and i also agree that Dungy didnt help with his gameplan but you say they went conservative? they only ran the ball 15 times. thats hardly conservative and neither Qb was throwing 20 yds or more but every so often. i mean, honestly, Peyton took over that game against the Chargers and yet Dungy wouldnt let him control the Offense against the Pats? doesnt make a lot of sense. either way, we both agree that Manning did nothing to try and create something out there.
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Old 01-17-2005, 01:42 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon§hiner
I won't go as far as to say Manning choked...(though I did vote that he did) but when you are the MVP of the league and the leader of your team you step up and show some fire and try to inspire these guys instead of looking like "oh no, here we go again"....a leader say "we aren't done until it's over"....I never saw that fire in his eyes or actions once yesterday.


Only thing I really put on him is the fact that a superstar should step up a make a big play or two even if the other team is a better team. I'm not a Michael Vick fan because he is a terrible passer but yesterday was a game that could easily be argued that a guy like Vick might have stepped up and made a couple game changing plays with his feet where as Manning didn't step up and do that. While I would take a Peyton Manning a million times out of a million over a Michael Vick even I will admit that might have been the type of close game that a Vick could have possibly pulled out with his feet.
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Old 01-17-2005, 01:49 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NaptownChief
Only thing I really put on him is the fact that a superstar should step up a make a big play or two even if the other team is a better team. I'm not a Michael Vick fan because he is a terrible passer but yesterday was a game that could easily be argued that a guy like Vick might have stepped up and made a couple game changing plays with his feet where as Manning didn't step up and do that. While I would take a Peyton Manning a million times out of a million over a Michael Vick even I will admit that might have been the type of close game that a Vick could have possibly pulled out with his feet.
Thanks, Naptown.... CornStore and I were discussing that very subject earlier in the thread regarding his contention that no current NFL QB could have done better against the Pats D than Manning did yesterday. My reply countered that Vick's mobility might have made the difference.
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Old 01-17-2005, 01:53 PM   #208
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Its funny how Peyton Manning has a game like this (or worse) in the playoffs every year, but there are plenty of people willing to give him a pass.

Tom Brady has a rough quarter in a Monday Night Game against the Dolphins and he gets totally crucified.

Can you imagaine if Brady ever threw four picks in a playoff game, like Manning did last year, or nearly got shut out, like Manning did yesterday? Mass hysteria would grip the media.
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Old 01-17-2005, 01:56 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Slap-
Its funny how Peyton Manning has a game like this (or worse) in the playoffs every year, but there are plenty of people willing to give him a pass.

Tom Brady has a rough quarter in a Monday Night Game against the Dolphins and he gets totally crucified.

Can you imagaine if Brady ever threw four picks in a playoff game, like Manning did last year, or nearly got shut out, like Manning did yesterday? Mass hysteria would grip the media.


you called it right on the nose. i remember all the Brady bashing. hell, i think Big Ben has taken more heat after his dismal playoff game than Manning and he is a rookie!
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Old 01-17-2005, 01:56 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Blueflame
Thanks, Naptown.... CornStore and I were discussing that very subject earlier in the thread regarding his contention that no current NFL QB could have done better against the Pats D than Manning did yesterday. My reply countered that Vick's mobility might have made the difference.
Give me McNabb yesterday, too, especially with all the weapons Peyton had at his disposal.

I have a feeling we'll see how Donovan will fare against that Patriot defense in a few weeks.
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Old 01-17-2005, 01:59 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Anubis_Zyklon
you called it right on the nose. i remember all the Brady bashing. hell, i think Big Ben has taken more heat after his dismal playoff game than Manning and he is a rookie!
The rookie has already been called out on this thread. CornLick trashed Big Ben just before he tried to compare Manning's 3-5 playoff record to the Great John Elway's 12-5 playoff record.

rofl
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Old 01-17-2005, 02:00 PM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueflame
Thanks, Naptown.... CornStore and I were discussing that very subject earlier in the thread regarding his contention that no current NFL QB could have done better against the Pats D than Manning did yesterday. My reply countered that Vick's mobility might have made the difference.


Vick might have thrown 4 or 5 picks and made it all irrelevant but certainly a reasonable person could certainly look at that situation and easily conceive that Vick could have made a difference since the score was fairly close most of the game.

Manning certainly didn't choke. He managed the game that was in front of him and avoided mistakes, he just didn't step up and make any big plays and superstar players should do that in big games when they are needed.

That being said, if Brady and Manning switched teams yesterday the results would have been the same so you can't reasonably lay the loss on the QB as the better team with the much better defense won as expected but you can certainly argue that a Steve Young, a Joe Montana, a John Elway type of QB might have stepped up and figured out how to pull the lesser team through and I think that would be a fair arguement.
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Old 01-17-2005, 02:05 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NaptownChief
Vick might have thrown 4 or 5 picks and made it all irrelevant but certainly a reasonable person could certainly look at that situation and easily conceive that Vick could have made a difference since the score was fairly close most of the game.

Manning certainly didn't choke. He managed the game that was in front of him and avoided mistakes, he just didn't step up and make any big plays and superstar players should do that in big games when they are needed.

That being said, if Brady and Manning switched teams yesterday the results would have been the same so you can't reasonably lay the loss on the QB as the better team with the much better defense won as expected but you can certainly argue that a Steve Young, a Joe Montana, a John Elway type of QB might have stepped up and figured out how to pull the lesser team through and I think that would be a fair arguement.

Well all be damned! your not as crazy as i thought! now, if you can just talk some sense into Cornholio that might help.
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Old 01-17-2005, 02:06 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by -Slap-
Give me McNabb yesterday, too, especially with all the weapons Peyton had at his disposal.

I have a feeling we'll see how Donovan will fare against that Patriot defense in a few weeks.


I'm guessing that will be the match up we will see also. All four teams have very good defenses but NE and Philly are a hell of a lot more balance on offense.

On a side note, I think the Colts would be foolish to pay Edge James big money to come back...He still hasn't regained his lateral movement. When matched up one on one with LB'ers on a screen he couldn't juke them or get around them. After watching B.Westbrook scorch anybody and everybody in one on one situations then watching James look like he had cement shoes was amazing the difference.
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Old 01-17-2005, 02:07 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by NaptownChief
Vick might have thrown 4 or 5 picks and made it all irrelevant but certainly a reasonable person could certainly look at that situation and easily conceive that Vick could have made a difference since the score was fairly close most of the game.

Manning certainly didn't choke. He managed the game that was in front of him and avoided mistakes, he just didn't step up and make any big plays and superstar players should do that in big games when they are needed.

That being said, if Brady and Manning switched teams yesterday the results would have been the same so you can't reasonably lay the loss on the QB as the better team with the much better defense won as expected but you can certainly argue that a Steve Young, a Joe Montana, a John Elway type of QB might have stepped up and figured out how to pull the lesser team through and I think that would be a fair arguement.
Hell, Elway could have done it while reading the Wall Street Journal or drinking a beer.
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Old 01-17-2005, 02:08 PM   #216
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What Cornstore failed to take into consideration about the difference between an Elway and a Manning is that someone had to devote a spy to Elway which meant that there was going to be one less man covered....Manning has never earned that kind of respect...and to his credit it's carried him well (most of the time, except in big games)...if you have a QB that is a threat to run at any moment if the receivers are covered, someone has to move up or give up yardage
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Old 01-17-2005, 02:08 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Jason in LA
The Pats had 6 points at the half. And 13 mid way through the 4th. The Colts held Brady to 144 yards. They played good until the final couple of drives. That's when Dillion was able to get a lot of yards. After Manning and his unstoppible offense couldn't get any first downs, leaving the Colts D on the field way too long. The Colts D showed up and played hard. They didn't get any help from their offense.
Actually the Pats had a first quarter touch called back by penalty. I would also be tempted to say, despite the elements, snow, wind, and cold Brady managed to put up 144 yards in completions.

I really think the weather had much more to do with the results than what anyone wants to acknowledge. Most coaches would've gone for establishing the running game in those conditions. New Englands O-Line, Corey Dillion and Kevin Faulk met the challenge. Indy's line didn't open the holes for Edge and he didn't take advantage of anything on his own. I guess I watched another Colt defense. Over and over they missed the N.E. back on the first tackle. Or the second, or the third. It was ridiculous how many yards those guys were getting - especially when there wasn't any burst of speed occurring. They were just dancing and picking their way and suddenly they are past the line. I was shaking my head in disbelief on several of those gains that should've resulted in nothing.
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Old 01-17-2005, 02:09 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by CornStore
why doesn't manning make some plays on his own? what did you expect him to do? rush for 300 yards and 4 touchdowns? he's a passer.
This is why Manning will never be truly great. Much like Marino, he's a great passer, but not that good at other aspects of being a quarterback. The great quarterbacks all have one thing in common. They'll do (or at least try to do) whatever is necessary to win, period. If Manning ever wants to win the big game, he's going to have to develope the big game mentality. That means going above and beyond being a passer. Manning would never have made the "Helicoptor" play that Elway made in the Superbowl. Every football fan in the world (except for the Green Bay fans in denial) knew the game was over right there. All that was left was to figure out the details. It would simply never occur to Manning to try something like that. People calling Manning and Marino great quarterbacks is an insult to the true greats. They are/were great passers, arguably the two greatest to ever play, but they are not great quarterbacks. Hell, I'd take Tarkenton in his prime over either of those bozos!

Marino was always excused by the lack of a serious running game. Now we're finding out what Marino would (likely) have done with one. Better receivers, better running game, same result.

Ben
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Old 01-17-2005, 02:13 PM   #219
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I'm guessing that will be the match up we will see also. All four teams have very good defenses but NE and Philly are a hell of a lot more balance on offense.

On a side note, I think the Colts would be foolish to pay Edge James big money to come back...He still hasn't regained his lateral movement. When matched up one on one with LB'ers on a screen he couldn't juke them or get around them. After watching B.Westbrook scorch anybody and everybody in one on one situations then watching James look like he had cement shoes was amazing the difference.
I agree and I think Edge is ready to seek adventures in climates closer to home anyway. More than anything, they can't even consider adding another huge contract to the offensive side of the ball. They're going to have to think about an extension for Freeney soon enough, too. He has two years left on his deal and you know he's going to want monster cash.
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Old 01-17-2005, 02:13 PM   #220
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I voted he choked, but it wasn't ALL peyton. The recievers did a good job of dropping passes.

This is peyton's white whale.

Last edited by alkemical; 01-17-2005 at 08:35 PM.. Reason: typeO
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Old 01-17-2005, 02:14 PM   #221
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The playoffs aren't a big mystery and the play of the QB usually doesn't have that much to do with the results. It's all about defense and by no surprise the #1, #2 and #3 rated defenses in points allowed are all among the final 4. You give any QB a defense like that and the odds are they will be playing the conference championship game.
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Old 01-17-2005, 02:20 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by No1BroncoFan
The great quarterbacks all have one thing in common.

Yes.....A good defense that will allow them to make it to Super Bowl games and give them a chance to win a ring. No team has ever won the Super Bowl with a well below average defense and in this day and age of media hype the "Great" label only gets passed out to QB's with the coveted rings.

Elway, Montana, Young, Favre, and on down the list would have all been ringless if they weren't fortunate enough to have some really good defenses on occassion during their career.
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Old 01-17-2005, 02:42 PM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Slap-
Its funny how Peyton Manning has a game like this (or worse) in the playoffs every year, but there are plenty of people willing to give him a pass.

Tom Brady has a rough quarter in a Monday Night Game against the Dolphins and he gets totally crucified.

Can you imagaine if Brady ever threw four picks in a playoff game, like Manning did last year, or nearly got shut out, like Manning did yesterday? Mass hysteria would grip the media.
But on the flip side, when Brady goes out and has an average day, and the team wins (which happens often), Brady is on the cover of SI and he's sitting next to Jay Leno. Sounds like a good trade off to me. In a minute the guys on PTI are going to discuss whether Brady is already a HOFer. He's a good QB, but he's not as great as he's made out to be.

Big Ben has also gotten a lot of undeserved credit this year as well. He's had a great year for a rookie, but lets be real. His defense and running game are what's really winning games for the Steelers.
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Old 01-17-2005, 02:43 PM   #224
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Give me McNabb yesterday, too, especially with all the weapons Peyton had at his disposal.

I have a feeling we'll see how Donovan will fare against that Patriot defense in a few weeks.
McNabb would have had the Colts in a position to win the game. I'll take him over any QB in the league.
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Old 01-17-2005, 02:48 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Jason in LA
McNabb would have had the Colts in a position to win the game. I'll take him over any QB in the league.

Well if you are going to bust on Manning for not stepping up in his big game opportunities I think you should take a little closer look at McNabb. He has developed himself into a very good QB in the last couple years but nobody has $hit themselves any harder or more often than McNabb in his biggest games over the past few years and has had some pretty good defenses that hasn't put him in too many situations requiring him to press.
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