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View Poll Results: Choke Job?
Big Time! 36 41.86%
Yes. 22 25.58%
No. 23 26.74%
Greatest Season Ever! All Hail Peyton Manning! 5 5.81%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-16-2005, 08:41 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by -Slap-
Meanwhile Peyton is three up and five down in playoff games. All he has to do is win his next nine playoff matchups to equal the great John Elway's record.

rofl
as funny as this is, it's irrelevant to the discussion.

1) teams win games, players dont
2) i was never comparing elway and manning, or saying manning would be more successful than elway and so forth, i was merely pointing out that "even the great elway" wouldn't have looked good vs the pats today, with the rest of the colts offense making mistakes like they did and generally being outplayed.

i'll connect the dots for you slap, since you're getting on in years.
when the rest of your offense gets beaten badly by someone's defense, you can have the best game of your life as a qb and it won't matter because you're getting sacked and no one's open or when you throw to someone they're dropping or fumbling it.
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Old 01-16-2005, 08:42 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CornStore
about the 91 bills thing, no they aren't worse, but i revised my statement realizing i misstated what i meant. the point is he lost to *some* teams that definitely were worse than the pats.
I beg to differ. The '91 Bills lost the SB; the current Pats (essentially the same team as '03) won. Therefore, stats say the current Pats are the superior team.

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in either case that's NOT THE POINT. the point is that if you put elway on an offense where the rest of the offense gets so badly outplayed and makes so many critical mistakes, he's not going to be able to look good no matter how talented or good he may be. this is why football is a team sport. i never suggested anything about elway having trouble in afc playoff games. i've gone out of my way to point out that i'm only talking about sticking elway into the context of ONE GAME, TODAYS GAME. he may be jesus playing quarterback but if his receivers are coughing the ball up he's not going to do anything.
Is that why John Madden said he couldn't name any other players on those (80s) Broncos SB teams besides #7? Because he had Pro Bowl WRs and RBs? Um, no.

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and as far as your manning comments, i guess you're changing the definition of "choking" and backpedaling now. i mean you can say context this and context that, but you damn well know what "choking" meant in the context of this thread, and that was "the loss was manning's fault, he messed up, he can't get it done in the big games blah blah blah".
We can parse the definition of "choke" all evening... but "a performance that is below expectations" is a pretty standard definition, imo...

Clarification of my reasons for voting "Big time" is not tantamount to changing a definition.
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Old 01-16-2005, 08:42 PM   #128
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there was no way he was doing it to the NE defense today with the rest of the colts offense.

Despite being a bronco fan, i would take Elway over ANY Qb against the this Pats team. if Elway had the kind of offense that Peyton has he would have won this game, bank on it. Elway had a knack for creating opportunities and making plays this is what made him special. you cant look at players like Mcnabb or Vick and think that Elway is the same breed. he was totally different and much smarter than them. you can take your NE defense cause trust me, John would have won this game today especially with the game being so close throughout most of it.
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Old 01-16-2005, 08:45 PM   #129
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Three (3) points.

Against an injury depleted defense.

Against a coach who owns him.

Against a quarterback who always - and I mean always - beats him, without a fraction of the attention.

Three (3) points.

rofl
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Old 01-16-2005, 08:47 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CornStore
and on the vick thing. the pats are fast and above all else, disciplined on defense. they would stop vick just fine, especially in foxboro in the snow after a bye week.
Tell you what, Corn... the Pats may get their shot at Vick. Get back to me afterwards when it's not pure unadulterated speculation, 'k?
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Old 01-16-2005, 08:48 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Blueflame
I beg to differ. The '91 Bills lost the SB; the current Pats (essentially the same team as '03) won. Therefore, stats say the current Pats are the superior team.



Is that why John Madden said he couldn't name any other players on those (80s) Broncos SB teams besides #7? Because he had Pro Bowl WRs and RBs? Um, no.



We can parse the definition of "choke" all evening... but "a performance that is below expectations" is a pretty standard definition, imo...

Clarification of my reasons for voting "Big time" is not tantamount to changing a definition.
this is like the fifth time i'm explaining this, and it'll be the last. hopefully you'll understand this time. i'm not comparing elway's successes to manning's. i'm saying that if you magically transported elway to this ONE SINGLE GAME, he wouldn't have accomplished anything either. i don't care how good his supporting cast was or wasn't. the fact is that 1) the hypothetical supporting cast he would have had today made tons of mistakes and were well covered/beaten all day, and 2) none of the teams he beat with his "crappy" supporting cast were playing like the patriots played today.

as for ranking teams based on whether or not they win the super bowl, it's flawed on so many levels it's surprising you'd even post that. probably was a cheap shot attempt at flaming my team since you don't have an argument to make. and no, the current pats aren't "essentially the same" as last year's team, to top it off. even if they were, the level of your competition and chance has a great deal to do with winning a SB in any particular year.

"a performance below expectations" is fine, but then clearly you can arbitrarily make your expectations as unrealistic as necessary in order to satisfy the ability to say "haha peyton choked". which is exactly what you're doing now. the pats played great defense, the rest of his supporting cast made many crucial errors, yet you "expected" more. what exactly did you expect?
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Old 01-16-2005, 08:50 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Slap-
Three (3) points.

Against an injury depleted defense.

Against a coach who owns him.

Against a quarterback who always - and I mean always - beats him, without a fraction of the attention.

Three (3) points.

rofl
Vanderjagt has to the the Colts' offensive MVP today...
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Old 01-16-2005, 08:51 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Slap-
Three (3) points.

Against an injury depleted defense.

Against a coach who owns him.

Against a quarterback who always - and I mean always - beats him, without a fraction of the attention.

Three (3) points.

rofl
more grasping. tom brady doesn't beat peyton manning. the patriots beat the colts. oh but i forgot, unless manning tackled dillon for a loss today, willed his WRs not to drop passes and fumble, and ran for 4 touchdowns, he'd be a choker to you bandwagon bitter homers.
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Old 01-16-2005, 08:51 PM   #134
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i'm saying that if you magically transported elway to this ONE SINGLE GAME, he wouldn't have accomplished anything either.
and again, your flat out wrong. Elway could do things that Peyton cant like say? move with some mobility. he can throw on the run much better than Peyton can. did you watch anything that John did in his career? even the simpliest minds know that Elway would have performed much better in this game than Manning.
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Old 01-16-2005, 08:52 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CornStore
this is like the fifth time i'm explaining this, and it'll be the last. hopefully you'll understand this time. i'm not comparing elway's successes to manning's. i'm saying that if you magically transported elway to this ONE SINGLE GAME, he wouldn't have accomplished anything either. i don't care how good his supporting cast was or wasn't. the fact is that 1) the hypothetical supporting cast he would have had today made tons of mistakes and were well covered/beaten all day, and 2) none of the teams he beat with his "crappy" supporting cast were playing like the patriots played today.

as for ranking teams based on whether or not they win the super bowl, it's flawed on so many levels it's surprising you'd even post that. probably was a cheap shot attempt at flaming my team since you don't have an argument to make. and no, the current pats aren't "essentially the same" as last year's team, to top it off. even if they were, the level of your competition and chance has a great deal to do with winning a SB in any particular year.

"a performance below expectations" is fine, but then clearly you can arbitrarily make your expectations as unrealistic as necessary in order to satisfy the ability to say "haha peyton choked". which is exactly what you're doing now. the pats played great defense, the rest of his supporting cast made many crucial errors, yet you "expected" more. what exactly did you expect?
We expect more than three (3) points. Everybody did. Choke job.

rofl
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Old 01-16-2005, 08:52 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Blueflame
Tell you what, Corn... the Pats may get their shot at Vick. Get back to me afterwards when it's not pure unadulterated speculation, 'k?
yeah, in jacksonville and not after a bye week. not that they won't be able to stop him anyway but if they don't i'm sure you'll cite it and ignore the differences in situation to further suit your "argument".
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Old 01-16-2005, 08:53 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Anubis_Zyklon
and again, your flat out wrong. Elway could do things that Peyton cant like say? move with some mobility. he can throw on the run much better than Peyton can. did you watch anything that John did in his career? even the simpliest minds know that Elway would have performed much better in this game than Manning.
and who would he have thrown on the run to? his covered receivers? how would he overcome the dropped passes and the fumbles? magic?
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Old 01-16-2005, 08:54 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Slap-
We expect more than three (3) points. Everybody did. Choke job.

rofl
yep, and the points scored are a function of the entire offense, not one guy. dunce.
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Old 01-16-2005, 08:55 PM   #139
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anyway i'm taking off. again i'm really sorry you guys are still fuming over the 49-24 game vs the broncos, but get over it. such unhealthy hatred and bitterness can't be good for you.
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Old 01-16-2005, 08:55 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CornStore
and who would he have thrown on the run to? his covered receivers? how would he overcome the dropped passes and the fumbles? magic?

Thats the beauty of mobility Corny. did you see the first TD that the Pats got? Brady moves out of the pocket and finds a reciever who broke free from his coverage. Elway made a living off that and with the speed the Colts have at Wideout you cant tell me none of them could get open if Elway bought himself some time? please, the Pats D is good but not that good.
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Old 01-16-2005, 08:56 PM   #141
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On one hand, who would know more about choking than a Bills fan? Except this is a fairweather Bills fan, if not a total fraud, so its a tough call.

Three (3) points all damn day. Too funny.

rofl
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Old 01-16-2005, 08:57 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Anubis_Zyklon
Thats the beauty of mobility Corny. did you see the first TD that the Pats got? Brady moves out of the pocket and finds a reciever who broke free from his coverage. Elway made a living off that and with the speed the Colts have at Wideout you cant tell me none of them could get open if Elway bought himself some time? please, the Pats D is good but not that good.
if you watched the game you'd know manning successfully rolled out/avoided pressure on several occasions and still could not find any open receivers. maybe his receivers had a hard time getting open in those conditions when the pats had dropped SEVEN OR EIGHT guys in coverage?
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Old 01-16-2005, 08:57 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CornStore
this is like the fifth time i'm explaining this, and it'll be the last. hopefully you'll understand this time. i'm not comparing elway's successes to manning's. i'm saying that if you magically transported elway to this ONE SINGLE GAME, he wouldn't have accomplished anything either. i don't care how good his supporting cast was or wasn't. the fact is that 1) the hypothetical supporting cast he would have had today made tons of mistakes and were well covered/beaten all day, and 2) none of the teams he beat with his "crappy" supporting cast were playing like the patriots played today.
Since the only way to make something like this happen is in a video game, it's pure speculation as to whether or not a different QB (one not owned by Belichick) woulda or coulda or shoulda made a difference. I do know that (unlike Peyton) Elway accomplished some playoff upsets.

Quote:
as for ranking teams based on whether or not they win the super bowl, it's flawed on so many levels it's surprising you'd even post that. probably was a cheap shot attempt at flaming my team since you don't have an argument to make. and no, the current pats aren't "essentially the same" as last year's team, to top it off. even if they were, the level of your competition and chance has a great deal to do with winning a SB in any particular year.
A smiley () generally indicates that the poster is jesting.

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"a performance below expectations" is fine, but then clearly you can arbitrarily make your expectations as unrealistic as necessary in order to satisfy the ability to say "haha peyton choked". which is exactly what you're doing now. the pats played great defense, the rest of his supporting cast made many crucial errors, yet you "expected" more. what exactly did you expect?
Let me ask you... did you consider (that year's NFL MVP) Red-azz Gannon and the Fade's performance in SB XXXVII to be a "choke"? If not, please provide an example of what you consider a "choke".
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Old 01-16-2005, 08:58 PM   #144
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I cant say for sure

But I think Elway would have struggled with defenses like this.

Not to take away anything from him, but D like this probably would be demoralizing for a Elway type QB. Or... any other.
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Old 01-16-2005, 08:58 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by -Slap-
On one hand, who would know more about choking than a Bills fan? Except this is a fairweather Bills fan, if not a total fraud, so its a tough call.

Three (3) points all damn day. Too funny.

rofl
and who'd know more about football than the great wise slap? how was that steelers blowout over the jets? pretty impressive huh?

really your desperate attempts to pin this on manning is so transparent your fellow broncos fans can even see it. simply pathetic.
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Old 01-16-2005, 09:00 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CornStore
if you watched the game you'd know manning successfully rolled out/avoided pressure on several occasions and still could not find any open receivers. maybe his receivers had a hard time getting open in those conditions when the pats had dropped SEVEN OR EIGHT guys in coverage?

i hardly consider having 2 steps on a guy breaking out of the pocket and Manning spent most of those rollouts going backwards and not towards the line of scrimmage. and i only counted maybe 2 instances when the Pats rushed only 3 lineman so that excuse doent work either. so now your considering Peyton a scrambler? which is it? is he a Passer or a Scrambler? you keep flip flopping now.
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Old 01-16-2005, 09:00 PM   #147
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What happened to that Colts fan who posted Peyton's padded stats broken down 35 different ways?

How about these numbers? Four quarters. Three (3) points.

That works out to 3/4 of a point per quarter. Impressive.

Where's the jerkoff who was mocking Super Bowl winning quarterbacks like Troy Aikman and Phil Simms because Manning threw twice as many touchdowns this season as they ever did?

Peyton's going to see about as many Super Bowls as Archie did.

rofl
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Old 01-16-2005, 09:02 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Anubis_Zyklon
i hardly consider having 2 steps on a guy breaking out of the pocket and Manning spent most of those rollouts going backwards and not towards the line of scrimmage. and i only counted maybe 2 instances when the Pats rushed only 3 lineman so that excuse doent work either. so now your considering Peyton a scrambler? which is it? is he a Passer or a Scrambler? you keep flip flopping now.
never said he was a scrambler. my point is that the pats did infact hold their coverages even if peyton bought time. the coverage scheme employed by the pats was very effective even as plays developed or broke down.
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Old 01-16-2005, 09:03 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Freekofnature
I cant say for sure

But I think Elway would have struggled with defenses like this.

Not to take away anything from him, but D like this probably would be demoralizing for a Elway type QB. Or... any other.

totally disagree. Elway would have abused Troy Brown today as a Dback.
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Old 01-16-2005, 09:03 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by CornStore
really your desperate attempts to pin this on manning is so transparent your fellow broncos fans can even see it. simply pathetic.
That must be why 2/3 of them have voted that Peyton choked like a dog today.

rofl
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