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View Poll Results: Choke Job?
Big Time! 36 41.86%
Yes. 22 25.58%
No. 23 26.74%
Greatest Season Ever! All Hail Peyton Manning! 5 5.81%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-16-2005, 05:41 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CornStore
i'm not talking about any long stretch of accomplishments or trying to compare manning's career to elway's. infact, i'm not even a Peyton Manning fan. it just annoys me to see him get irrationally bashed on this board because some of you guys are bitter about him for whatever reason.

all i meant with that comment is that given the way NE's defense was able to outplay the rest of the colts' offense, NO QUARTERBACK, not even one as good as elway would have looked good. manning wasn't the one failing to tackle dillon, or the one fumbling caught balls, or killing drives with dropped passes. no qb can overcome that, not manning, not elway, not montana, and not even jim kelly =P
Some of us simply view the ringless Peyton as... dare I say it.... overrated...

Perhaps if the sports media didn't devote quite so much time to Colts buttkissing, that might not be the case... but as has already been observed on the forum today, Jim Nantz clearly wanted a Colts victory so bad he could taste it.
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Old 01-16-2005, 05:43 PM   #52
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colts went into todays game with no fire no emotion no nothing the cards could have beat the colts today...............
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Old 01-16-2005, 05:43 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueflame
Some of us simply view the ringless Peyton as... dare I say it.... overrated...

Perhaps if the sports media didn't devote quite so much time to Colts buttkissing, that might not be the case... but as has already been observed on the forum today, Jim Nantz clearly wanted a Colts victory so bad he could taste it.

Rep, the commissioner must be in total agony right now cause his poster boy is ousted once again.
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Old 01-16-2005, 05:44 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueflame
Some of us simply view the ringless Peyton as... dare I say it.... overrated...

Perhaps if the sports media didn't devote quite so much time to Colts buttkissing, that might not be the case... but as has already been observed on the forum today, Jim Nantz clearly wanted a Colts victory so bad he could taste it.

elway was ringless until the end. was he overrated that entire time? teams win championships, not single players, and evaluating a qb on being ringless when overall he's done far more to help the team potentially reach a super bowl than detract from it is just self serving bitterness, in my opinion. the media certainly does its fair share of ballwashing about new england and how great tom brady is despite the fact that a lot of his wins has been him being bailed out by his team and not vice versa. they certainly ballwashed elway a lot back in the day too. the media is silly, doesn't detract from the players they choose to kiss up to.
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Old 01-16-2005, 05:44 PM   #55
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Coaches and quarterbacks get too much credit when they win and too much blame when they lose. Boy this old bromide is so true during this last week.
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Old 01-16-2005, 05:49 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueflame
Some of us simply view the ringless Peyton as... dare I say it.... overrated...

Perhaps if the sports media didn't devote quite so much time to Colts buttkissing, that might not be the case... but as has already been observed on the forum today, Jim Nantz clearly wanted a Colts victory so bad he could taste it.


I wouldn't say overraed. But I would say Dan Marino.

Marino is a top 10 QB of all time, and a great argument can be made that he's in the top 5. Some could even say he's in the top 3. Manning will go down as a great QB. But more than likely ringless.
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Old 01-16-2005, 05:51 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CornStore
elway was ringless until the end. was he overrated that entire time? teams win championships, not single players, and evaluating a qb on being ringless when overall he's done far more to help the team potentially reach a super bowl than detract from it is just self serving bitterness, in my opinion. the media certainly does its fair share of ballwashing about new england and how great Tom Brady is despite the fact that a lot of his wins has been him being bailed out by his team and not vice versa. they certainly ballwashed elway a lot back in the day too. the media is silly, doesn't detract from the players they choose to kiss up to.

Elway was never seen as overrated because he could take over a game by himself whereas Peyton cannot and that is evident. its not Peyton's fault that he isnt a mobile Qb but thats just how it is. even if his receivers are dropping passes he needed to find a way to substain drives and any cost and he just didnt find a way to do it. Even though it took adding some more talent to Elways team he still managed to get to the Super Bowl 3 times carrying the team on his back. thats why Elway is or was never overrated.
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Old 01-16-2005, 05:51 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CornStore
elway was ringless until the end. was he overrated that entire time? teams win championships, not single players, and evaluating a qb on being ringless when overall he's done far more to help the team potentially reach a super bowl than detract from it is just self serving bitterness, in my opinion. the media certainly does its fair share of ballwashing about new england and how great Tom Brady is despite the fact that a lot of his wins has been him being bailed out by his team and not vice versa. they certainly ballwashed elway a lot back in the day too. the media is silly, doesn't detract from the players they choose to kiss up to.
As was noted above, Elway wasn't ringless, CornStore. While the SB ring was missing until January of 1998, he did have three AFC Championship rings by the end of his seventh year in the league. And yes, some football fans did consider him overrated. Broncos fans were not among that group, however. We'd seen too many fantastic comebacks for that.

As to the Brady hype... part of the reason the Pats had a "chip on their shoulder" today was the media treating them like an afterthought. As long as the Pats are defending SB champions, they've earned the hype imho.
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Old 01-16-2005, 05:54 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueflame
Jim Nantz clearly wanted a Colts victory so bad he could taste it.
Rep, I thought I was the only one sensing that. The media wants Manning to be the greatest qb ever. He just isn't.

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Old 01-16-2005, 05:54 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CornStore
i'm not talking about any long stretch of accomplishments or trying to compare manning's career to elway's. infact, i'm not even a Peyton Manning fan. it just annoys me to see him get irrationally bashed on this board because some of you guys are bitter about him for whatever reason.

all i meant with that comment is that given the way NE's defense was able to outplay the rest of the colts' offense, NO QUARTERBACK, not even one as good as elway would have looked good. manning wasn't the one failing to tackle dillon, or the one fumbling caught balls, or killing drives with dropped passes. no qb can overcome that, not manning, not elway, not montana, and not even jim kelly =P
You find what you are looking for. You want to be annoyed. I don't think there is one person on this board "bitter" about Peyton Manning. If you had been around longer than a few weeks you would know there has been ongoing debate about Peyton's abilities for about three seasons.

Could some of the problems you mention Indy having been mitigated by some leadership and determination? QB's can overcome and influence the play of the rest of the team.

One of my long held observations about Peyton is he is a perfectionist. And as long as the gameplan moves along in perfect fashion he is automatic. He doesn't respond well to adversity. I think Vanderjagt was right when he commented on no emotion coming from the QB. But what does he know? He's just an idiot liquored up kicker.
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Old 01-16-2005, 05:55 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CornStore
elway was ringless until the end. was he overrated that entire time? teams win championships, not single players, and evaluating a qb on being ringless when overall he's done far more to help the team potentially reach a super bowl than detract from it is just self serving bitterness, in my opinion. the media certainly does its fair share of ballwashing about new england and how great Tom Brady is despite the fact that a lot of his wins has been him being bailed out by his team and not vice versa. they certainly ballwashed elway a lot back in the day too. the media is silly, doesn't detract from the players they choose to kiss up to.
There is one big difference between Elway the first 14 years of his career, and Manning. Elway took a bunch of nobodies to the Super Bowl three times. Manning has all the weapons, but he can barely get to the AFC Championship game. Elway got the Broncos to the AFC Championship game four times during his first 14 years, winning it three times. Put Elway on this Colts team, with all those weapons, and they smash the Pats today. Elway would have handled that pressure and got the ball to the receivers. If he could get the ball to the Three Amigos in the Dawg Pound, I'm sure he could have gotten the ball to three 1000 yard WRs in New England.
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Old 01-16-2005, 05:55 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Blueflame
As was noted above, Elway wasn't ringless, CornStore. While the SB ring was missing until January of 1998, he did have three AFC Championship rings by the end of his seventh year in the league. And yes, some football fans did consider him overrated. Broncos fans were not among that group, however. We'd seen too many fantastic comebacks for that.

As to the Brady hype... part of the reason the Pats had a "chip on their shoulder" today was the media treating them like an afterthought. As long as the Pats are defending SB champions, they've earned the hype imho.
you said it yourself, the key phrase is that the PATS have earned the hype. but people constantly compare brady to manning and claim brady is superior when that is clearly not the case. the pats are superior, though classless.

and as for the whole ringless thing, making the cutoff at "conference championship" is pretty arbitrary. the point is it's an invalid criticism, since manning certainly helps the colts win. it's not his fault he met a team today that played lights out defense vs his offense ... and elway today wouldn't have advanced either.
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Old 01-16-2005, 05:55 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubis_Zyklon
Elway was never seen as overrated because he could take over a game by himself whereas Peyton cannot and that is evident. its not Peyton's fault that he isnt a mobile Qb but thats just how it is. even if his receivers are dropping passes he needed to find a way to substain drives and any cost and he just didnt find a way to do it. Even though it took adding some more talent to Elways team he still managed to get to the Super Bowl 3 times carrying the team on his back. thats why Elway is or was never overrated.
Good point, Anubis... you put an in-his-prime Elway out there against the Pats... with 3 1,000+ yard WRs to catch the ball and I'm simply not buying the notion that he could not have gotten the job done. Of course, Harrison, Wayne, and Stokely might have been sporting an "Elway cross" by the end of the day...
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Old 01-16-2005, 05:57 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason in LA
There is one big difference between Elway the first 14 years of his career, and Manning. Elway took a bunch of nobodies to the Super Bowl three times. Manning has all the weapons, but he can barely get to the AFC Championship game. Elway got the Broncos to the AFC Championship game four times during his first 14 years, winning it three times. Put Elway on this Colts team, with all those weapons, and they smash the Pats today. Elway would have handled that pressure and got the ball to the receivers. If he could get the ball to the Three Amigos in the Dawg Pound, I'm sure he could have gotten the ball to three 1000 yard WRs in New England.

Not too mention that Elway was no dome Qb, he was used to the elements of being outside. i totally agree with your post here.
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Old 01-16-2005, 05:57 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueflame

As to the Brady hype... part of the reason the Pats had a "chip on their shoulder" today was the media treating them like an afterthought. As long as the Pats are defending SB champions, they've earned the hype imho.
I don't have a problem with the Pats as a team getting the hype. I'm just sick of hearing "Brady wins", when the entire team went out and played their guts out.
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Old 01-16-2005, 05:58 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CornStore
you said it yourself, the key phrase is that the PATS have earned the hype. but people constantly compare brady to manning and claim brady is superior when that is clearly not the case. the pats are superior, though classless.

and as for the whole ringless thing, making the cutoff at "conference championship" is pretty arbitrary. the point is it's an invalid criticism, since manning certainly helps the colts win. it's not his fault he met a team today that played lights out defense vs his offense ... and elway today wouldn't have advanced either.

Ive actually never heard that comparison. the one thing that i keep hearing about the Pats is that its a TEAM effort and frankly, i would have to agree.
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Old 01-16-2005, 05:58 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Tredici
You find what you are looking for. You want to be annoyed. I don't think there is one person on this board "bitter" about Peyton Manning. If you had been around longer than a few weeks you would know there has been ongoing debate about Peyton's abilities for about three seasons.

Could some of the problems you mention Indy having been mitigated by some leadership and determination? QB's can overcome and influence the play of the rest of the team.

One of my long held observations about Peyton is he is a perfectionist. And as long as the gameplan moves along in perfect fashion he is automatic. He doesn't respond well to adversity. I think Vanderjagt was right when he commented on no emotion coming from the QB. But what does he know? He's just an idiot liquored up kicker.

i dunno, how did peyton manage to come back vs the bucs after trailing by 21 points? he certainly did some leading there in the most impossible situation. or when he lead the team to a win against the chargers, they ahd certainly been stifling the colts gameplan all day. i don't think that's a particularly valid criticism of manning. the guy is a perfectionist but how is taht a bad thing? i think the rest of his offense would agree he is a good leader and he's done things on the field to prove that.

as for today's game and pinning the other mistakes on peyton, maybe you're right and he could have compensated for the offense's flatness but this is pretty tough to argue about. maybe the offense really was jsut flat.

and dude, there really are a lot of people here bitter about manning ...

anyway i have to go, but good posts by everyone here
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Old 01-16-2005, 06:00 PM   #68
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Good point, Anubis... you put an in-his-prime Elway out there against the Pats... with 3 1,000+ yard WRs to catch the ball and I'm simply not buying the notion that he could not have gotten the job done. Of course, Harrison, Wayne, and Stokely might have been sporting an "Elway cross" by the end of the day...
this is homerism end of story. sorry but it really is. did you watch the game today? no one was doing anything to that defense, and those 1000 yd receivers would have fumbled if elway was throwing to them as well.
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Old 01-16-2005, 06:01 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CornStore
elway was ringless until the end. was he overrated that entire time? teams win championships, not single players, and evaluating a qb on being ringless when overall he's done far more to help the team potentially reach a super bowl than detract from it is just self serving bitterness, in my opinion. the media certainly does its fair share of ballwashing about new england and how great Tom Brady is despite the fact that a lot of his wins has been him being bailed out by his team and not vice versa. they certainly ballwashed elway a lot back in the day too. the media is silly, doesn't detract from the players they choose to kiss up to.
But the Duke took teams to the dance three times that had even less d than the babyjackasses, and not even half Payaton's offensive weapons. Please, do us all a huge favor, and don't put Payaton and the Duke in the same post again, ever.
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Old 01-16-2005, 06:02 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CornStore
you said it yourself, the key phrase is that the PATS have earned the hype. but people constantly compare brady to manning and claim brady is superior when that is clearly not the case. the pats are superior, though classless.

and as for the whole ringless thing, making the cutoff at "conference championship" is pretty arbitrary. the point is it's an invalid criticism, since manning certainly helps the colts win. it's not his fault he met a team today that played lights out defense vs his offense ... and elway today wouldn't have advanced either.
Brady has the jewelry to support the claim of superiority, CornStore. Today, he got the job done; Manning did not.

If I am not mistaken, rings are given for conference championships and for league championships. Therefore, "ringless" would refer to lack of wins in either the AFCC or SB, would it not?

One cannot say definitively that Elway would or would not have advanced today because he was never in the situation. One can only speculate... and opinions are going to vary on the subject (you are likely to be outnumbered on a Broncos board... )
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Old 01-16-2005, 06:03 PM   #71
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this thing goes way back further than just his Pro Career. 3 of the years he was in Tenn. his team was a top 5 college program and picked to win a championship but he couldn't beat Florida. the year after he left the Vols won a national championship. Now 7 years in the league great numbers and still he doesn't make it to the big dance. when steve spurrier was told that he was gonna come back to play his senior season at Tenn. he said "I guess he wants to be the first quarterback to lead his team to 4 straight citrus bowls".
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Old 01-16-2005, 06:03 PM   #72
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this is homerism end of story. sorry but it really is. did you watch the game today? no one was doing anything to that defense, and those 1000 yd receivers would have fumbled if elway was throwing to them as well.

You have just solidified your status as a idiot. this isnt homerism as Elway is a ****ing Hall of Famer. get off our board with this bull****.
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Old 01-16-2005, 06:04 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason in LA
There is one big difference between Elway the first 14 years of his career, and Manning. Elway took a bunch of nobodies to the Super Bowl three times. Manning has all the weapons, but he can barely get to the AFC Championship game. Elway got the Broncos to the AFC Championship game four times during his first 14 years, winning it three times. Put Elway on this Colts team, with all those weapons, and they smash the Pats today. Elway would have handled that pressure and got the ball to the receivers. If he could get the ball to the Three Amigos in the Dawg Pound, I'm sure he could have gotten the ball to three 1000 yard WRs in New England.


All in all peyton is not mobile elways was and i agree elway would have found a way to ge the ball where it needed to be,peyton on the other hand was waiting for something to happen.
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Old 01-16-2005, 06:04 PM   #74
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Nobody is saying Manning isn't a good QB. That would be like saying Marino isn't a good QB. But some QBs just aren't champions. Manning isn't one. The heat came and he couldn't handle it. Elway always delt with the pressure. Step up in the pocket, or roll out. He bought himself more time. Manning didn't do that today.

I'd even say that Vick could have won today with the Colts. Mobile QBs can get away from the pressure and make plays. Manning is a statue. He can't take the pressure. Young, Montana, Elway, and even a few QBs from today like McNabb, Culpepper, a healthy McNair, could have done a lot better than Manning because all of those QBs could avoid the rush. Guys like Manning and Marino always need a great O line to win. Sometimes even a great O line will have a bad day. That happened to the Colts O line today. On those days it's up to the QB to pick up the slack instead of blame them.
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Old 01-16-2005, 06:07 PM   #75
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Quote:
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this is homerism end of story. sorry but it really is. did you watch the game today? no one was doing anything to that defense, and those 1000 yd receivers would have fumbled if elway was throwing to them as well.
Did YOU watch the game today? Manning was shaking his head early in the third quarter and had a deer in the headlights glaze in his eyes. Whether you think you're going to win or not, you don't show it. QB is the leader and Manning is not a great leader. He is a great passer, but that is different than being a leader. Elway would have put players on his back if he had to just to win a Superbowl. Manning just doesn't have that in him yet. Will he develop leadership qualities? Doubtful, you either have it or you don't. It's not something you can fake.
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