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View Poll Results: Choke Job?
Big Time! 36 41.86%
Yes. 22 25.58%
No. 23 26.74%
Greatest Season Ever! All Hail Peyton Manning! 5 5.81%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-17-2005, 04:32 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Tredici
Indy has magnificent receivers. The best ever. Three of them over 1,000 yards. They don't make mistakes. Stokely and Wayne are brilliant and know how to dismantle defenses. At least I read that in some post before they played against New England.

So it just can't be the fault of the receivers.

Tsk Tsk. Peyton gagged.
why do you take random pro manning posts and put the words in my mouth? cheap tactic many of you seem to be using because you don't feel like actually debating the point.

indy's receivers are good, but they aren't physical and match up poorly vs new england's defense. they also, uncharacteristically, choked in yesterday's game specifically. it happens. brady has an off game, elway had off games and so forth. so yes, it was their fault, and not manning's (to the degree you could say manning gagged).
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Old 01-17-2005, 04:33 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Circle Orange
Willie McGintest and Ty Law were on teams against Elway. Coupla others, too.
having a couple of the same players hardly makes it the same team. the team now is largely dependent on many of the other players, the offense's ability to do what's necessary, and even moreso on the gameplanning/coaching overall.
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Old 01-17-2005, 04:34 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by CornStore
even a three year old could tell the difference between the two situations, but just incase you're the only toddler on the internet i'll spell it out for you:

an interception on a tipped ball is the responsibility of some combination of the QB and receiver, whereas a fumble AFTER the receiver has possession of the ball is 100% his responsiblity. a tipped int can occur because the QB made an inaccurate throw and the receiver tipped it as a result or because the QB made a poor decision to throw into coverage and as a result it was battled for by a defender/receiver and intercepted as a result. i'm willing to give plummer a free pass on those ints that were 100% the receiver's fault, of course, and never said otherwise. however, based on plummer's history of accuracy and decisionmaking i have a hard time believing that the majority of his ints were 1) even on tipped balls and 2) on tipped balls AND solely the responsiblity of the receiver. manning however is known for his accuracy and decisionmaking and history bears this out. in yesterday's game the balls were quite simply dropped or fumbled 100% because of the receivers.
You must be a one year old, or you would recognize that Peyton often puts his receivers in harm's way. Ask Dallas Clark before you start talking about 100% blame for anything.
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Old 01-17-2005, 04:38 PM   #254
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Thanks, Naptown.... CornStore and I were discussing that very subject earlier in the thread regarding his contention that no current NFL QB could have done better against the Pats D than Manning did yesterday. My reply countered that Vick's mobility might have made the difference.
the pats match up extremely well against mobile qbs, look it up. they have disciplined speedy defenders that are capable of playing contain and fulfilling their responsibility. whatever vick would have brought to the table in terms of mobility would have more than been made up for by his relative inability to accurately deliver the ball to WRs and make intelligent playcalling decisions.

also i did a little research on your point about elway single handedly winning playoff games and so forth and not having a supporting cast. would you believe that the broncos in 87 had the 7th best defense in the entire nfl? sounds like a decent supporting cast to me, much moreso than what peyton has -- manning's defense is ranked near the bottom of the league and this is despite the fact that manning gives them a huge lead to play with week in and week out. infact, if you look at elway's record between 89 and 98, the only times he even had above mediocre W/L seasons is when his defense was ranked highly as well.
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Old 01-17-2005, 04:41 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by -Slap-
You must be a one year old, or you would recognize that Peyton often puts his receivers in harm's way. Ask Dallas Clark before you start talking about 100% blame for anything.
putting a receiver in harm's way is a far cry from lofting up an easily tipped ball that gets intercepted because the defender is well covered. getting hammered after you take two steps and have control of the ball is hardly the same thing. tell me, if manning so often threw up plummers, and isn't accurate and so forth, why does he have so few interceptiosn on the year compared to plummer? is it because his receivers are good? then why weren't they as good yesterday when they lost the ball?

keep stretching though, you're on your way to teaching yoga.
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Old 01-17-2005, 04:44 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by -Slap-
The rookie has already been called out on this thread. CornLick trashed Big Ben just before he tried to compare Manning's 3-5 playoff record to the Great John Elway's 12-5 playoff record.

rofl
once again you stretch and harp on a meaningless and irrelevant point. i wasn't comparing manning to elway or manning's playoff teams to elway's playoff teams (since teams win and lose playoff games, one would think you'd have caught on to this by now). i was referencing the fact that no qb, not even elway, would have succeeded against the pats defense yesterday when the rest of the offense made so many critical mistakes.

i guess it should be obvious by now you're still sore that i've called out your lack of football knowledge twice now, and that you're just attempting to get under my skin to resurrect some self esteem. maybe i'll stop humoring you now.
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Old 01-17-2005, 04:45 PM   #257
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How did Westbrook do in the playoff game against Carolina last season, Naptown?

No BS.
I'll answer this before he gets buried under too many posts.

Westbrooks didn't play in the playoffs last year. He got hurt late in the season.

McNabb was hurt, he was playing behind a poor O line, and his best weapon was out.
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Old 01-17-2005, 04:47 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by CornStore
once again you stretch and harp on a meaningless and irrelevant point. i wasn't comparing manning to elway or manning's playoff teams to elway's playoff teams (since teams win and lose playoff games, one would think you'd have caught on to this by now). i was referencing the fact that no qb, not even elway, would have succeeded against the pats defense yesterday when the rest of the offense made so many critical mistakes.

i guess it should be obvious by now you're still sore that i've called out your lack of football knowledge twice now, and that you're just attempting to get under my skin to resurrect some self esteem. maybe i'll stop humoring you now.
Wins are meaningless and irrelevant. I guess to a fairweather Bills fan, that might make some degree of sense. If he even was a Bills fan.

God, I love winding this stupid kid up. He doesn't care about Peyton Manning, but he's got twice as many posts as anybody else on this thread.

rofl
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Old 01-17-2005, 04:49 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by -Slap-
I didn't see that, but I didn't see every snap, either. I sure wouldn't be surprised. Hell, if I was freakishly skinny like that, self preservation would be high on my list of priorities, too. Hit him too hard, you might kill his tapeworm.
I can understand, I played WR at 125 pounds, luckily we only pased the ball about 5 times a game so I didnt have to worry too much about getting drilled.

But I wasnt getting paid over a million dollars either..
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Old 01-17-2005, 04:49 PM   #260
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I'll answer this before he gets buried under too many posts.

Westbrooks didn't play in the playoffs last year. He got hurt late in the season.

McNabb was hurt, he was playing behind a poor O line, and his best weapon was out.
Thanks, Jason. CornStore is going to need some room on this thread for his latest tantrum.

rofl
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Old 01-17-2005, 04:49 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by CornStore
the pats match up extremely well against mobile qbs, look it up. they have disciplined speedy defenders that are capable of playing contain and fulfilling their responsibility. whatever vick would have brought to the table in terms of mobility would have more than been made up for by his relative inability to accurately deliver the ball to WRs and make intelligent playcalling decisions.

also i did a little research on your point about elway single handedly winning playoff games and so forth and not having a supporting cast. would you believe that the broncos in 87 had the 7th best defense in the entire nfl? sounds like a decent supporting cast to me, much moreso than what peyton has -- manning's defense is ranked near the bottom of the league and this is despite the fact that manning gives them a huge lead to play with week in and week out. infact, if you look at elway's record between 89 and 98, the only times he even had above mediocre W/L seasons is when his defense was ranked highly as well.
In '87 the Broncos were ranked 9th in the league, out of 28. That's good, but not world beaters.

Funny that you mention '87, but say nothing about '86, when Elway took the 21st ranked defense to the Super Bowl.

As for this Pats team, Elway's 97-98 teams would have smashed them. The game wouldn't even be close.
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Old 01-17-2005, 04:50 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by -Slap-
Keep trying to spin the numbers. Bottom line is McNabb is 6-4 in the post season, with no credible help on offense, before Westbrook this season. He's taking the Eagles to their fourth straight Conference Championship Game.

Manning is 3-5 in the playoffs, with one appearance in the AFC Championship Game. A four interception extravaganza.

Manning has also had one more season as a starter. One and a half, really.
ROFL holy crap you're beyond help, you'll do anything to make peyton look bad. ever consider that mcnabb's DEFENSE might have had anything to do with his TEAM's success? wow, what a concept.
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Old 01-17-2005, 04:55 PM   #263
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Wins are meaningless and irrelevant. I guess to a fairweather Bills fan, that might make some degree of sense. If he even was a Bills fan.

God, I love winding this stupid kid up. He doesn't care about Peyton Manning, but he's got twice as many posts as anybody else on this thread.

rofl
twist and stretch, twist and stretch. i'm not a peyton manning fan, no. i have many posts in this thread because i'm responding to many different people on many different points. the reason i posted in the first place is because i find it comical so many of you despise peyton manning to the extent that you'll try to pin blame on him whenever possible.

when i said "meaningless and irrelevant" i suppose i should have spelled it out since you seem to have a hard time understanding sentences in the context of a post. if you read the rest of my post, you'd see that i meant comparing W/L records over a career is meaningless and irrelevant to my point that elway wouldn't have done better in yesterday's game than manning did. who cares how elway did on different teams vs different opponents? obviously you do, in a vain attempt to pile more blame on manning.
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Old 01-17-2005, 04:55 PM   #264
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ROFL holy crap you're beyond help, you'll do anything to make peyton look bad. ever consider that mcnabb's DEFENSE might have had anything to do with his TEAM's success? wow, what a concept.
Ever consider that McNabb has been basically by himself on offense?

How about the fact that he took the team from 5-11 to 11-5 in his first season as the starter?

The Colts were 3-13 under Harbaugh and 3-13 under Manning. It wasn't until Edgerrin James was drafted that the team showed any improvement.

rofl
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Old 01-17-2005, 04:57 PM   #265
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twist and stretch, twist and stretch. i'm not a Peyton Manning fan, no. i have many posts in this thread because i'm responding to many different people on many different points. the reason i posted in the first place is because i find it comical so many of you despise Peyton Manning to the extent that you'll try to pin blame on him whenever possible.

when i said "meaningless and irrelevant" i suppose i should have spelled it out since you seem to have a hard time understanding sentences in the context of a post. if you read the rest of my post, you'd see that i meant comparing W/L records over a career is meaningless and irrelevant to my point that elway wouldn't have done better in yesterday's game than manning did. who cares how elway did on different teams vs different opponents? obviously you do, in a vain attempt to pile more blame on manning.

Shut up, liar. You dream of your lips on his bag. Frigging closet case.
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Old 01-17-2005, 04:58 PM   #266
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In '87 the Broncos were ranked 9th in the league, out of 28. That's good, but not world beaters.

Funny that you mention '87, but say nothing about '86, when Elway took the 21st ranked defense to the Super Bowl.

As for this Pats team, Elway's 97-98 teams would have smashed them. The game wouldn't even be close.
i meant in terms of points allowed. in any case the pats were statistically a not so terrific team when they won it all in 2001. stuff happens. elway taking one bad defense to a super bowl against competition that may or may not match up to the competition manning faced yesterday VS. several seasons of consistent mediocrity when his defense was bad and passable success only when his defense was good is what we call a statistical trend.

of course you elway homers will conveniently look past this and pretend like he would have beaten this pats team despite his own WRs turning the ball over like crazy.
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Old 01-17-2005, 04:59 PM   #267
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Shut up, liar. You dream of your lips on his bag. Frigging closet case.
good strategy. ignore a well reasoned post and throw out some insults because you can't hack it in a football discussion. finally you see the light and can deal with your own glaring shortcomings.

kudos to you!
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Old 01-17-2005, 05:01 PM   #268
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Ever consider that McNabb has been basically by himself on offense?

How about the fact that he took the team from 5-11 to 11-5 in his first season as the starter?

The Colts were 3-13 under Harbaugh and 3-13 under Manning. It wasn't until Edgerrin James was drafted that the team showed any improvement.

rofl
again, when did i ever say manning was better than mcnabb? i was merely highlighting the logical inconsistencies in your desperate posts that attempt to make manning look bad.

just to further make you look like a clueless moron, though, there's no correlation between mcnabb and manning's first years with their respective teams to their performance NOW, which is what we're talking about. congrats on yet another poorly reasoned point!
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Old 01-17-2005, 05:01 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by CornStore
i meant in terms of points allowed. in any case the pats were statistically a not so terrific team when they won it all in 2001. stuff happens. elway taking one bad defense to a super bowl against competition that may or may not match up to the competition manning faced yesterday VS. several seasons of consistent mediocrity when his defense was bad and passable success only when his defense was good is what we call a statistical trend.

of course you elway homers will conveniently look past this and pretend like he would have beaten this pats team despite his own WRs turning the ball over like crazy.


Yes, you are correct. Elway would have beaten this Pats team. why? cause when it was only 6-3 John could have easily managed to create something and get the ball to a open receiver ( you and i discussed this last night ) cause he has mobility. there is a reason why John was considered the comeback king. but seriously Corn, you must have never seen Elway play or ever seen any highlights because only then would you truly understand the kind of player that he was.
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Old 01-17-2005, 05:02 PM   #270
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good strategy. ignore a well reasoned post and throw out some insults because you can't hack it in a football discussion. finally you see the light and can deal with your own glaring shortcomings.

kudos to you!
Your strategy is better. Pose as a fan of a team that's challenging the Broncos for a wild card spot so you can troll our board like a little b****. Too bad we found out you get all soft and gooey over Peyton Manning.

They're making trolls so soft these days. Just like the Colts.

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Old 01-17-2005, 05:05 PM   #271
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Yes, you are correct. Elway would have beaten this Pats team. why? cause when it was only 6-3 John could have easily managed to create something and get the ball to a open receiver ( you and i discussed this last night ) cause he has mobility. there is a reason why John was considered the comeback king. but seriously Corn, you must have never seen Elway play or ever seen any highlights because only then would you truly understand the kind of player that he was.
this is homerism and conjecture. if you are seriously deluded enough to think that he would have "created" something against a loaded pats defense playing out of its mind at home, and then somehow overcome a fumble by the receiver after he "made something happen" there's no help for you.

and btw, elway was the comeback king because he wasn't a good enough leader and quarterback to get his team out to a lead in the first place. or was that becuase the rest of his team was bad? that high ranking defense he relied on every successful season let him down? well then it's the other players' fault when elway's behind but when manning's behind its' him choking?
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Old 01-17-2005, 05:06 PM   #272
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Your strategy is better. Pose as a fan of a team that's challenging the Broncos for a wild card spot so you can troll our board like a little b****. Too bad we found out you get all soft and gooey over Peyton Manning.

They're making trolls so soft these days. Just like the Colts.

wow, want a tissue? next thing you'll join the line of whiners that try to get me banned. i guess it's a rule that bills fans have to join in mindless irrational peyton manning bashing by bitter broncos fans. my bad, i should have read the rulebook!
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Old 01-17-2005, 05:08 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by CornStore
this is homerism and conjecture. if you are seriously deluded enough to think that he would have "created" something against a loaded pats defense playing out of its mind at home, and then somehow overcome a fumble by the receiver after he "made something happen" there's no help for you.

and btw, elway was the comeback king because he wasn't a good enough leader and quarterback to get his team out to a lead in the first place. or was that becuase the rest of his team was bad? that high ranking defense he relied on every successful season let him down? well then it's the other players' fault when elway's behind but when manning's behind its' him choking?

Omg! loaded team? the Pats secondary was depleted you ****ing moron! are you just making **** up now? and John wasnt a leader? he has two Super Bowl rings mother****er! and who do you think the team looked up too? do you even see clips of fellow Bronco players and what they think of Elway? your a complete moron. just when i think you have some sense you spew out total garbage like this? let me guess? you think that Jim Kelly is much better right? your a ****ing joke dude, honestly.
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Old 01-17-2005, 05:11 PM   #274
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Omg! loaded team? the Pats secondary was depleted you ****ing moron! are you just making **** up now? and John wasnt a leader? he has two Super Bowl rings mother****er! and who do you think the team looked up too? do you even see clips of fellow Bronco players and what they think of Elway? your a complete moron. just when i think you have some sense you spew out total garbage like this? let me guess? you think that Jim Kelly is much better right? your a ****ing joke dude, honestly.
judging by slap's line of reasoning, elway only became a champ when TD joined the team. guess he had nothing to do with the broncos winning it all. and for the fiftieth time, i'm not comparing elway's career to manning's or saying manning is better than elway. my point is simply that no qb would have "looked good" in yesterday's game vs that defense with their offense coughing the ball up so many times.

btw, the pats secondary has been depleted throughout this season, and they've been forced to play earthwind moreland and troy brown when samuel/gay have missed games. however, moreland, the true weak link wasn't playing yesterday. samuel is highly underrated and gay is good as well. pats fans even know this. ty law is a great player and ballhawk but for the scheme to work you don't need incredible corners, as was demonstrated yesterday, you just need to not have HORRIBLE ones like moreland playing.
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Old 01-17-2005, 05:21 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by CornStore
the pats match up extremely well against mobile qbs, look it up. they have disciplined speedy defenders that are capable of playing contain and fulfilling their responsibility. whatever vick would have brought to the table in terms of mobility would have more than been made up for by his relative inability to accurately deliver the ball to WRs and make intelligent playcalling decisions.

also i did a little research on your point about elway single handedly winning playoff games and so forth and not having a supporting cast. would you believe that the broncos in 87 had the 7th best defense in the entire nfl? sounds like a decent supporting cast to me, much moreso than what peyton has -- manning's defense is ranked near the bottom of the league and this is despite the fact that manning gives them a huge lead to play with week in and week out. infact, if you look at elway's record between 89 and 98, the only times he even had above mediocre W/L seasons is when his defense was ranked highly as well.
Unless or until Vick's Falcons face that Pats defense, we won't really know for sure, will we, CornStore? We do know that the Pats lost to the Steelers and Dolphins... two teams that feature a pretty good defense, as do the Falcons.

RE: the 80s Broncos SB teams and Elway's supporting cast... name 5 defensive players on those teams (without looking it up).
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