the DEFINITIVE word on the CBS/DNC forged ANG documents

[watermock]

You have Gary Trudau and an 86 year old woman covering your ass?

Why not think about this there Genius.

Why doesn't Dan Blather reveal his source?

How about that?

Do we need a cartoonist and an 86 year old woman to validate Dan Rather?

What are you smoking?

I allready posted the discharge, and you said my cat marched on it.

Jesus Christ.

Hey listen to this my smartass, I produced an actual photocopy.

What part of this don't you understand?

[Rohirrim]

How do I know where that photocopy came from? For all I know, you put that together at Kinkos.

[Blueflame]

Originally Posted by watermock

You have Gary Trudau and an 86 year old woman covering your ass?

Why not think about this there Genius.

Why doesn't Dan Blather reveal his source?

How about that?

Why doesn't Novak reveal the source that identified Valerie Plame to him so that he could expose her as a CIA agent?

Do we need a cartoonist and an 86 year old woman to validate Dan Rather?

What are you smoking?

I allready posted the discharge, and you said my cat marched on it.

Jesus Christ.

Hey listen to this my smartass, I produced an actual photocopy.

What part of this don't you understand?

We have unclaimed rewards for anyone who can provide even a simple snapshot of Bush in Alabama... and these are significant monetary amounts... yet no one has come forward with any evidence.

[watermock]

Records show he was released approximately 6 months early.

What part of this don't you understand? I allready posted an ACTUAL photocopy of his discharge.

Look what you have:

You have an 86 year old woman you call "credible". You have a Microsoft Word Document LABF thinks was made my some Selectric typewriter when it has a Kinkos Stamp from Texas. You have a liberal CARTOONIST offering money.

And your still buying it. Dan Rather has backed off, you want me to believe a Cartoonist and an 86 year old secretary that can't even produce a decent urine sample yet alone a document other than heresay, and your trying to pass it off.

It's hysterical.

[Exile_In_SJ]

here is some stuff from guys who served with Bush in the TANG.....
(from betsys blog)

Jed Babbin actually talked to some men who were in Bush's squadron in the TANG. That is something that Dan didn't do, because he apparently thought the secretary would know more about what the men thought than the men themselves. Here is Babbin's report.
Mrs. Knox said that though the CBS documents weren't real, what is stated in the forgeries is. She talked and talked about how Killian was upset with Mr. Bush, how the rest of the pilots resented him for being a child of privilege, and said that Killian's son -- who disputes the validity of the CBS case against Mr. Bush -- "...has no way of knowing whether it's true or not." And she does? Not according to the members of the squadron I spoke to this morning.

Col. Bill Campenni (USAF, Ret.) wondered just how Mrs. Knox would have more knowledge than Killian's son. He told me that not only was young Killian the son of the squadron commander, he was a member of the squadron on duty with the rest of the guys. Mrs. Knox -- the squadron secretary -- only knew paper. Not people. Killian's son was in a very good position to know, and she wasn't.

Mrs. Knox said she remembered that Killian was upset because Mr. Bush didn't take his flight physical. And she transforms Killian's supposed frustration into a statement that the other pilots werer resentful of Mr. Bush be cause of his attitude. That's flatly false according to both Campenni and Joe Glavin, another pilot who flew with Dubya. I asked Glavin if there was any such resentment of Bush. He said, "Absolutely not," and added that you'd have a really hard time finding anyone who would agree with that.

(Bill Campenni reminds me that though Mr. Bush missed the physical, it made no sense for him to have taken one. He wasn't going to continue flying. His skill with the F-102 was obsolete, and he wasn't going to retrain for another aircraft. He was about to leave the Guard to go to Harvard. Which makes it pretty unlikely that Killian actually ordered Mr. Bush to take the physical.)

So why is Mrs. Knox saying all this? Glavin says nobody should care what she said. "She had nothing to do with the unit. She didn't fly, she didn't hang out with us." According to Glavin, she was out of the mainstream of the squadron, in an office that the pilots only visited occasionally. According to Bill Campenni, Knox is a "yellow dog" democrat, and her biases were noticeable even in 1972. Leave it to CBS to find the one yellow dog Dem in the 1972 Texas Air National Guard. Her statement is as valid as the CBS memos.


Remember that Knox said that Killian's son wouldn't know what his father thought or about the situation with Bush. Apparently, she didn't know that the son was part of the unit and so would know more than she does.

How lame is that. Would 60 Minutes have ever constructed this story if all they had was the secretary and Ben Barnes, Kerry's 3rd biggest contributor? Not if they were fairly looking at this as a real story rather than a chance to do a hatchet job on Bush.

[Blueflame]

Originally Posted by watermock

Records show he was released approximately 6 months early.

No, records show that he was absent... with no one knowing where he was or what he was doing... during a 5-month timeframe between May and October of 1972, when he was supposed to be reporting to the TANG. Noteworthy is the fact that he did not request transfer to Alabama until September 1972.

What part of this don't you understand? I allready posted an ACTUAL photocopy of his discharge.

Look what you have:

You have an 86 year old woman you call "credible". You have a Microsoft Word Document LABF thinks was made my some Selectric typewriter when it has a Kinkos Stamp from Texas. You have a liberal CARTOONIST offering money.

And your still buying it. Dan Rather has backed off, you want me to believe a Cartoonist and an 86 year old secretary that can't even produce a decent urine sample yet alone a document other than heresay, and your trying to pass it off.

Methinks it just might have been Bush who wasn't able to "produce a decent urine sample"... and that could be the true reason he blew off that flight physical....

It's hysterical.

You bet it is... and some conservatives think its a good thing for the issue to remain in the spotlight.

[patteeu]

Originally Posted by Blueflame

Excuse me, but that is the secretary's opinion, is it not?

Weren't you complaining that we only had a battle of expert opinion. Now you want to say that all opinion is irrelevant. You are comical.

Originally Posted by Blueflame

Perhaps that's precisely what Rove did... and perhaps it's provable, too.

I know you aren't serious.

Originally Posted by Blueflame

OK, so now you've presented Rather's opinion of the secretary's opinion.

Not convinced huh? You are hopeless.

[watermock]

Originally Posted by Blueflame

Why doesn't Novak reveal the source that identified Valerie Plame to him so that he could expose her as a CIA agent?



We have unclaimed rewards for anyone who can provide even a simple snapshot of Bush in Alabama... and these are significant monetary amounts... yet no one has come forward with any evidence.

Look at the discharge papers. He was released to work for a political campaign.

I'm not blind. The document shows he was about 6 months short of 6 years. What part don't you understand?

He was released 6 months early and given an honorable discharge. What part of this is beyond your comprehension?

You can put up a million dollars. Fact is he was discharged, bottom line. This is so amusing.

HE WAS GIVEN A RELEASE WITH 5 YEARS 4 MONTHS 28 DAYS.

What part of this don't you understand?

There was never any AWOL charge, yet alone a conviction.

He was released to work on a political campaign, and probabably got preferential treatment. That has never been the issue. The issue has been forgery.

Let me explain this just one last time. Bush was released from duty but liable to be pulled up again at will.

His plane the F-102 was a widowmaker and retired.

He could of retrained for the F-105 which was another deathtrap. Only the F-111 finally had the computers to run the ground radar to deliver nuclear weapons under the Soviet Radar.

You people are a bunch of fools that don't have a clue.

[patteeu]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

I saw the "old woman" on 60 Minutes the other night. She looked pretty sharp, and extremely credible to me. She said she doesn't believe in the authenticity of the documents, but does believe in their content.

That's just your opinion of her opinion. I won't believe it until I see proof. Hey, this BlueFlame argument style is really cool.

Sorry for the flippant response Rohirrim, but I couldn't help it.

[Blueflame]

Originally Posted by patteeu

Weren't you complaining that we only had a battle of expert opinion. Now you want to say that all opinion is irrelevant. You are comical.



I know you aren't serious.



Not convinced huh? You are hopeless.

Yeah, I've been saying this whole debate will end up as "these experts' opinion is that they could be authentic" and "these experts' opinion is that they're probably forged".

Seriously, I think this saga has not yet run its course.

How about addressing the content of the memos? That's the real story; not whether they're copies or originals...

[watermock]

I don't know how many times I have to explain that he was released aproximately 6 months early to work on a political campaign.

What part of Honorable Discharge don't you understand?

He served 5 years, 4 months, 28 days.

He was Dismissed, I allready posted a photocopy, a HELL OF ALOT MORE THAN DAN BLATHER HAS PRODUCED.

I suggest you provide a single piece of evidence that Dan Rather isn't a criminal liar.

[Blueflame]

Originally Posted by watermock

Look at the discharge papers. He was released to work for a political campaign.

I'm not blind. The document shows he was about 6 months short of 6 years. What part don't you understand?

Before that, he was AWOL for five months. His pay records prove this.

He was released 6 months early and given an honorable discharge. What part of this is beyond your comprehension?

You can put up a million dollars. Fact is he was discharged, bottom line. This is so amusing.

HE WAS GIVEN A RELEASE WITH 5 YEARS 4 MONTHS 28 DAYS.

What part of this don't you understand?

There was never any AWOL charge, yet alone a conviction.

He was released to work on a political campaign, and probabably got preferential treatment. That has never been the issue. The issue has been forgery.

No, the issue is him allegedly disregarding a direct order to show up for the flight physical and skipping town instead.

Let me explain this just one last time. Bush was released from duty but liable to be pulled up again at will.

His plane the F-102 was a widowmaker and retired.

He could of retrained for the F-105 which was another deathtrap. Only the F-111 finally had the computers to run the ground radar to deliver nuclear weapons under the Soviet Radar.

You people are a bunch of fools that don't have a clue.

The "retired airplane" excuse is just that. A lame excuse. The F-102 was still in use when he blew off the physical.

[watermock]

Yeah, I've been saying this whole debate will end up as "these experts' opinion is that they could be authentic" and "these experts' opinion is that they're probably forged".

What part of "could be authentic" and "these esperts opinion is that they are probably forged dont you understand?"

This is so amusing.

There isn't an expert opinion other than to say the documents are outright fakes.

What part of this is escaping your comprehension?

[RaiderH8r]

Originally Posted by Blueflame

Excuse me, but that is the secretary's opinion, is it not?



Perhaps that's precisely what Rove did... and perhaps it's provable, too.




OK, so now you've presented Rather's opinion of the secretary's opinion.

Again, the focus is on the diversion and not the substance of the memos. It's not the authenticity or lack thereof that is key here; it's the newly-disclosed information that Bush allegedly defied a direct order to report for that flight physical, requiring a CYA memo to be written. And this new info has not been addressed, much less contested.

Focus is on the diversion not the substance of the memos? Are you I'd like to crawl in the same snuggie withing kidding? This is a joke right? Forget that the "proof" was fabricated. Forget that the whole impetus for this discussion is false. What is really important is the newly-disclosed information, stemming from the fabricated BS, is what is NOW important. Who is diverting attention now? Come off of it. The documents are BS therefor anything IN the documents is BS, no matter how many people come forward and SAY that it is fact. Until someone provides ACTUAL proof of documentation it is all speculation and hear say. Good God, the honus is not on the President to proove he was in the guard, that point has been conceded. The honus is on his accusers proving their allegations.

[watermock]

Totally False.

He was delivered an Honarable Discharge which I have allready posted.

What part of an actual documented release form is confusing you?

I suggest you worry about Dan Blathers crap.

I can give you Bush's Honorable Discharge. I allready have three times. You people just look at it like blind Mules.

It's a signed document photocopy of release. Take it for you want, it's a hell of alot more genuine that this CrapHole Dan Rather has created.

It's genuine, and substantiated. So screw yourselves, your all done. He was relieved 6 months early.

I have the proof. Want to play I am an idiot LABF?

[watermock]

I will poke a Terminator right thru your head.

You go play the game about Bush not having an Honorable Discharge and watch me just play with you like a mouse. Go play with it.

[Blueflame]

Originally Posted by RaiderH8r

Focus is on the diversion not the substance of the memos? Are you I'd like to crawl in the same snuggie withing kidding? This is a joke right? Forget that the "proof" was fabricated. Forget that the whole impetus for this discussion is false. What is really important is the newly-disclosed information, stemming from the fabricated BS, is what is NOW important. Who is diverting attention now? Come off of it. The documents are BS therefor anything IN the documents is BS, no matter how many people come forward and SAY that it is fact. Until someone provides ACTUAL proof of documentation it is all speculation and hear say. Good God, the honus is not on the President to proove he was in the guard, that point has been conceded. The honus is on his accusers proving their allegations.

Even if the memos were not original copies, what difference does that make if the content is true? No one has said it's not. We do know that Bush blew off his physical and was subsequently grounded. Did he defy a direct order to report for that physical? In the absence of any evidence to the contrary (or even a denial) I'm guessing he did. We know from his payroll records that he didn't show up at the TANG in May, June, July, August, or September of 1972 when he was supposed to.

[Rohirrim]

I'm sending my dogs out to go cat hunting - in Iowa.

[RaiderH8r]

Originally Posted by Blueflame

Even if the memos were not original copies, what difference does that make if the content is true? No one has said it's not. We do know that Bush blew off his physical and was subsequently grounded. Did he defy a direct order to report for that physical? In the absence of any evidence to the contrary (or even a denial) I'm guessing he did. We know from his payroll records that he didn't show up at the TANG in May, June, July, August, or September of 1972 when he was supposed to.

And you can speculate and theorize until the sun sets in the east, still does not PROVE anything. The fact that the whole discussion was prompted by falsified documents discredits the position. You expect a reasonable person to buy into an argument based on false pretenses?

Furthermore, why would the President address it? Why give this BS the weight of the White House recognizing it as anything close to legitimate? Kerry screwed up, he didn't bash the Swift vote vets back early and then got in the game late and lent credibility to their story by trying to refute it piece by piece. He's still doing it. If you were Kerry's opponent would you want to wade into the same ****storm Johnny boy is in now? 47 days left and he's going to spend it trying to recover from this "30 years ago" shtick. HA HA.

[patteeu]

Originally Posted by Blueflame

Yeah, I've been saying this whole debate will end up as "these experts' opinion is that they could be authentic" and "these experts' opinion is that they're probably forged".

Seriously, I think this saga has not yet run its course.

How about addressing the content of the memos? That's the real story; not whether they're copies or originals...

As I've said before, I believe GWBush probably got preferential treatment regarding his ANG duty. I also believe he earned his honorable discharge (even if his preferential treatment allowed him to earn it more easily than the average Joe) and that his actions didn't amount to being AWOL (even if he didn't attend any ANG events for long periods of time). To be AWOL, you have to be absent without permission. If he was absent without permission he would have been charged. If it was only because of preferential treatment that he was granted permission then it would have bothered me at the time, but not 30+ years later. It wouldn't be Bush that I'd be so upset with though, it would be those granting him the special treatment. Nothing that has been revealed regarding his service is of any interest to me at all.

[patteeu]

Originally Posted by Blueflame

Before that, he was AWOL for five months. His pay records prove this.

Do his pay records indicate that he was absent without permission and that his commanding officer charged him with being AWOL? If not, then they don't prove anything.

[patteeu]

Originally Posted by watermock

What part of "could be authentic" and "these esperts opinion is that they are probably forged dont you understand?"

This is so amusing.

There isn't an expert opinion other than to say the documents are outright fakes.

What part of this is escaping your comprehension?

Every part?

[watermock]

maybe you misunderstood me.

Look, Dubya isn't making himself out as some war Hero, Kerry did!

Was Clinton a war hero?

What is wrong with you people?

It's incredibly amusing when 270 Veterans hate Kerry and Dan Blather can't produce a single person.

[watermock]

There are 270 people that think Kerry is a POS.

Dan Blather has yet to produce ONE.

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by patteeu

As I've said before, I believe GWBush probably got preferential treatment regarding his ANG duty. I also believe he earned his honorable discharge (even if his preferential treatment allowed him to earn it more easily than the average Joe) and that his actions didn't amount to being AWOL (even if he didn't attend any ANG events for long periods of time). To be AWOL, you have to be absent without permission. If he was absent without permission he would have been charged. If it was only because of preferential treatment that he was granted permission then it would have bothered me at the time, but not 30+ years later. It wouldn't be Bush that I'd be so upset with though, it would be those granting him the special treatment. Nothing that has been revealed regarding his service is of any interest to me at all.

The tricky part of that stance is that there are a couple of witnesses who testify that "Governor" Bush sent his aides out to the local commanders of the Texas Guard and had them destroy documents pertaining to his service. They claim that they saw the shredded documents. This isn't too hard to believe. If the Guard commanders were willing to grease his service when he was the son of a congressman, why wouldn't they be willing to do more when he's governor of the state? So, we can't know if was AWOL or not. We can't know if his commander intended to write him up, but was stopped by higher ups.

A secretary of Bush's commander says that he kept a CYA file and that she had seen it, and added documents to it. She says she read the documents and they pertained to Bush. She remembers discussing it with him. She further states that the "content" of the CBS documents is the same as Killian's CYA file, but the documents are not authentic. The original documents no longer exist. But CBS says they do, and that these are them. What's the logical answer? Think, Muldar. Think!