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Old 07-14-2004, 04:05 PM   #76
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lmao. oh yea, criticizing you teamates shows great leadership abilities just ask Terrell ' im the greatest reciever eva ' Owens who has, how many rings again? as i stated before it takes more than stats to become a GREAT Qb. take away any of Peytons wideouts and plug in some average wides and see how well he does. Manning gets a LOT of help from his offense, not just a little. guys like Elway did a ****load more with less than what Manning has helping him. and their defense was much much improved from previous years but the fact is he got outplayed by Brady and the Pats. hell, Brady deserves more credit than he is getting he hasnt had a that little thing called a running game to help him. talk about perking up the rabbit ears, you need to get out of that tunnel vision you latched onto.
Just like in college when Nash was his best receiver right? Damn, I don't know how the Vols ever lost a game.

Wayne has one good season to date and their No. 3 is Stokely. You're talking about Wayne and Stokely like they are something very far above average. Proof of how good Sir Peyton is.
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Old 07-14-2004, 04:11 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by ozomulsion
Just like in college when Nash was his best receiver right? Damn, I don't know how the Vols ever lost a game.

Wayne has one good season to date and their No. 3 is Stokely. You're talking about Wayne and Stokely like they are something very far above average. Proof of how good Sir Peyton is.

oh i forgot. Nash was his only reciever thats right. nevermind that other allstar Peerless and whats that running backs name who kicks ass in bufflo right now? uh, Henry i think and the other in Jamal Lewis. didnt he have 2,000 yds last year? Nate Wayne is one of the fastest recievers in the game right now ( thats why they let Wilkens go ) and stokely is a great reciever with a super bowl ring. oh i know, he doesnt have flash so that doesnt count right? and who is the third reciever again? im sure its a allpro and future hall of famer...but i cant seem to recall his name. umm Marvin....Harry... Harrison. yea. thats him. Damn, give Jake that kind of recieving core and we can do some serious damage. sorry, you'll have to dig deeper.
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Old 07-14-2004, 04:18 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Goobzilla
I would much rather have a QB that believes in himself than a QB that thinks he's OK or pretty good or above average. I personally would be more worried about a QB that says "Yeah, I'm not bad I guess..." and gives you the old shoulder shrug. Would it have been easier for some to swallow if he said top 3? Top 5?

As I've said before, there's guys out there that don't want the rock with the game on the line. Give me someone who does. Manning is one of those guys who does. Is he the best? Debatable, but IMO he is right now.

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Showing grace and humility in no way means that they don't "want the rock with the game on the line".....since when is showing some class an indication of self-doubt?
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Old 07-14-2004, 04:20 PM   #79
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I'll remind you he said this while on The Hot Seat , you know , on Sports Center. You don't get to give ho hum answers on that show. You didn't watch it did you?

I avoid FlavorCenter every chance I get.
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Old 07-14-2004, 04:29 PM   #80
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oh i forgot. Nash was his only reciever thats right. nevermind that other allstar Peerless and whats that running backs name who kicks ass in bufflo right now? uh, Henry i think and the other in Jamal Lewis. didnt he have 2,000 yds last year? Nate Wayne is one of the fastest recievers in the game right now ( thats why they let Wilkens go ) and stokely is a great reciever with a super bowl ring. oh i know, he doesnt have flash so that doesnt count right? and who is the third reciever again? im sure its a allpro and future hall of famer...but i cant seem to recall his name. umm Marvin....Harry... Harrison. yea. thats him. Damn, give Jake that kind of recieving core and we can do some serious damage. sorry, you'll have to dig deeper.
Price: Didn't come into his own until Peyton was gone.
Henry: Very good back
Lewis: injured most the time
Nate who?
Stokely: Superbowl Yes Great No
Never said Harrison wasn't the best in the game.
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Old 07-14-2004, 04:36 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Anubis_Zyklon
lmao. oh yea, criticizing you teamates shows great leadership abilities just ask Terrell ' im the greatest reciever eva ' Owens who has, how many rings again? as i stated before it takes more than stats to become a GREAT Qb. take away any of Peytons wideouts and plug in some average wides and see how well he does. Manning gets a LOT of help from his offense, not just a little. guys like Elway did a ****load more with less than what Manning has helping him. and their defense was much much improved from previous years but the fact is he got outplayed by Brady and the Pats. hell, Brady deserves more credit than he is getting he hasnt had a that little thing called a running game to help him. talk about perking up the rabbit ears, you need to get out of that tunnel vision you latched onto.
Dude your on a roll!!

valid ass points!

I think the only reason Payton played so well in last years playoffs is because he got the fire lit up his ass!

Too bad the guy holding the match was kicker who is more of a competitor than him.

If you have ever read anything on Vanderject the dude does not consider himself a kicker he is football player. Try telling it to his face he will tackle your ass!

Anyways till Manning wins a ring hes a loser just like Elway was always considered and Elway never had a receiver like Harrison or a running game like Edge till TD came along.

And Elway is 10 times the competitor Manning will ever be.

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Old 07-14-2004, 04:40 PM   #82
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Tunnel vision, what in the holy hell are you talking about? Read my 1st post on this thread , I said Manning and Brady are 1 and 2 in my opinion. So now if you call team mates out for not performing you're an ass? Where does this leave Rod Smith? Rod does it every year but it doesn't make him a bad guy, does it?(BTW, I love Rod so let's not even start that)

As far as using playoff numbers to make a case for him not being a top flight QB, that's not entirely fair either. Pretend it's '92 and we're having this discussion. Elway's SB numbers back then were a less than stellar 46 for 101 663 Yds 2 TD's 6 INT's yet no one would argue that he was among the very best QB's in the game, despite subpar SB numbers.

IMO, the only crime committed here is he said it out loud. If you don't think Jerry Rice doesn't believe he's the greatest reciever in history hands down you're fooling yourself. He's just a little more PC when he does interviews. If Rice would speak honestly and candidly on the record, he'd tell you the truth. Manning has no history of being a cancer in the locker room or a coach killer but everyone is on his back for believing in himself?

What about Hassleback in the playoffs last year announcing to the world during the OT coin flip that the 'Hawks were going to win? No backlash there, and I saw no torches and pitchforks heading up I-5 towards Seattle. That kind of stuff doesn't bother me at all. Chad Johnson guaranteeing a win vs. the Chefs? No biggie, if he was wrong they weren't supposed to win anyway. Even Quitterson promising to put something on our azz last year isn't a big deal to me. Didn't happen and made him look even more clownish than usual.

If I had truly had Tunnel vision, I'd be trying to convince you that Jake is the best wouldn't I? I'm not a Colts fan but I am impressed with how he plays the game. He kicked the living poop out of us in the playoffs and had a good time doing it. I'm not even trying to make a case for him being the best, I'm saying as one of the best he should be afforded the right to speak honestly about what he feels.

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Old 07-14-2004, 04:42 PM   #83
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He kicked the living poop out of us in the playoffs and had a good time doing it.
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As did the Broncos a couple of weeks before...
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Old 07-14-2004, 04:46 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Hogan11
Showing grace and humility in no way means that they don't "want the rock with the game on the line".....since when is showing some class an indication of self-doubt?
And since when does speaking what you truly believe in your heart to be true make you a loser? If you can't believe in yourself, who the F can you believe in?


I have much less of a problem with this then RayRay and other defenders jumping around like they just tackled Jesus on 4th and goal when they're making routine plays 3 and 4 yards downfield.


Nobody thinks less of Ali for proclaiming himself "The Greatest" do they?

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Old 07-14-2004, 04:49 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goobzilla
Tunnel vision, what in the holy hell are you talking about? Read my 1st post on this thread , I said Manning and Brady are 1 and 2 in my opinion. So now if you call team mates out for not performing you're an ass? Where does this leave Rod Smith? Rod does it every year but it doesn't make him a bad guy, does it?(BTW, I love Rod so let's not even start that)

As far as using playoff numbers to make a case for him not being a top flight QB, that's not entirely fair either. Pretend it's '92 and we're having this discussion. Elway's SB numbers back then were a less than stellar 46 for 101 663 Yds 2 TD's 6 INT's yet no one would argue that he was among the very best QB's in the game, despite subpar SB numbers.

IMO, the only crime committed here is he said it out loud. If you don't think Jerry Rice doesn't believe he's the greatest reciever in history hands down you're fooling yourself. He's just a little more PC when he does interviews. If Rice would speak honestly and candidly on the record, he'd tell you the truth. Manning has no history of being a cancer in the locker room or a coach killer but everyone is on his back for believing in himself?

What about Hassleback in the playoffs last year announcing to the world during the OT coin flip that the 'Hawks were going to win? No backlash there, and I saw no torches and pitchforks heading up I-5 towards Seattle. That kind of stuff doesn't bother me at all. Chad Johnson guaranteeing a win vs. the Chefs? No biggie, if he was wrong they weren't supposed to win anyway. Even Quitterson promising to put something on our azz last year isn't a big deal to me. Didn't happen and made him look even more clownish than usual.

If I had truly had Tunnel vision, I'd be trying to convince you that Jake is the best wouldn't I? I'm not a Colts fan but I am impressed with how he plays the game. He kicked the living poop out of us in the playoffs and had a good time doing it. I'm not even trying to make a case for him being the best, I'm saying as one of the best he should be afforded the right to speak honestly about what he feels.

Ron

fair enough, a lot of valid points you made there but i still think he has a long way to go. Trent Green has a crapload of stats as well but no one is mentioning him in the same sentence and to me they both are almost identical. to me, they are both just products of their current offensive systems. i never said Peyton was bad just overrated. i believe Peyton has the right football mindset and arm to succeed but i want to see what he can do without all the talent around him. maybe im too old fashioned in the sense that i watched John carry the broncos to 3 super bowls in the 80s without a whole lot of help or talent around him. even though Kurt Warner has a ring it really was the system that got it for him. it can happen for Peyton as well but i just feel today's QB needs to have a more balanced attack both with his feet and arm and Peyton doesnt fit into that mold in my opinion.
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Old 07-14-2004, 04:52 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Sassy
He kicked the living poop out of us in the playoffs and had a good time doing it.
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As did the Broncos a couple of weeks before...
Hey don't get me wrong, I'm as Orange and Blue as anyone on here and I loved toasting the Colts as I take great pleasure in all Bronco victories. He didn't play well that night, agreed. If you have access to it, go back and watch that Monday nighter against Tampa last year. Even after seeing it a few times, it's still incredible.

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Old 07-14-2004, 04:54 PM   #87
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Hey don't get me wrong, I'm as Orange and Blue as anyone on here and I loved toasting the Colts as I take great pleasure in all Bronco victories. He didn't play well that night, agreed. If you have access to it, go back and watch that Monday nighter against Tampa last year. Even after seeing it a few times, it's still incredible.

Ron
Good Point

That game changed my perception of manning.

I always that he was a chocker till then. The way he was firing the ball showed he had gotten bigger balls
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Old 07-14-2004, 04:56 PM   #88
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And since when does speaking what you truly believe in your heart to be true make you a loser? If you can't believe in yourself, who the F can you believe in?
Talk about reaching, did I say "Loser"?? No, I said arrogant.....again, since when does grace and humility reflect self-doubt or a lack of belief in ones self??

Elway never said such things...he didn't have to....guess he didn't believe in himself, did he?
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Old 07-14-2004, 04:57 PM   #89
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Peyton is a good QB...don't get me wrong...but I'd rather have Jake. Jake has heart and was 9-2 as a starter for us. He got pissed when he threw that INT in the first Colt's game and came back with fire. I like that in a QB. He'll be even better for the Broncos this year...and I've never heard him in the "I" mode...everything is team with Jake and I'm guessing he'll have a SB moment before Peyton does.
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Old 07-14-2004, 04:59 PM   #90
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Quite a few guys have more throwing ability than Brady, but I'll take Tom anyday. We lived through the Bledsoe/Brady thing ad nauseum around here.

We know Drew has a stronger arm. Unfortunately, he's still connected to that head and feet. And he always tried to force that 1 more pass that always killed us.

Tom makes better decisions. And the comparisons to Montana are definitely there and hold some water. Marino was a better passer than Montana, but Joe got it done..... and done well under pressure.

I think Manning has some Bledsoe in him in that he tries to do too much himself. And he has more offensive help than Drew ever had.
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Old 07-14-2004, 05:02 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Anubis_Zyklon
fair enough, a lot of valid points you made there but i still think he has a long way to go. Trent Green has a crapload of stats as well but no one is mentioning him in the same sentence and to me they both are almost identical. to me, they are both just products of their current offensive systems. i never said Peyton was bad just overrated. i believe Peyton has the right football mindset and arm to succeed but i want to see what he can do without all the talent around him. maybe im too old fashioned in the sense that i watched John carry the broncos to 3 super bowls in the 80s without a whole lot of help or talent around him. even though Kurt Warner has a ring it really was the system that got it for him. it can happen for Peyton as well but i just feel today's QB needs to have a more balanced attack both with his feet and arm and Peyton doesnt fit into that mold in my opinion.
First off let it be said that I could beat Brad Johnson, Kurt Warner and Trent Dilfer in a foot race and they all have rings.

I also respect the hell out of your takes on this board and I'm not trying to start a pissing contest here. I think he's a hell of a QB regardless of any "baggage" people think he might have.

In no particular order these are the guys I go out of my way to find on Sunday Ticket when the Broncos aren't on:

Manning
Brady
Leftwich
Favre even though his game has slid a little

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Old 07-14-2004, 05:04 PM   #92
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Peyton is a good QB...don't get me wrong...but I'd rather have Jake. Jake has heart and was 9-2 as a starter for us. He got pissed when he threw that INT in the first Colt's game and came back with fire. I like that in a QB. He'll be even better for the Broncos this year...and I've never heard him in the "I" mode...everything is team with Jake and I'm guessing he'll have a SB moment before Peyton does.
I sure hope you're right. I'm finally at a point in my life where I could move heaven and earth to get to the SB in person when we get back there.

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Old 07-14-2004, 05:10 PM   #93
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When I heard Manning say he was the best, I didn't think it was cocky at all. He was asked a question. He didn't just come out and say it.

The debate about Manning and McNair is just like the Elway and Marino debates. One is a pocket passer, the other is a playmaker. Manning has a much better supporting cast on O than McNair, just like Marino had over Elway. Put Manning on the Titans and he struggles big time. The same can be said for McNabb. He has nothing around him, but he makes plays on his own that help the team win. Manning would struggle on the Eagles. I think both McNair and McNabb would do pretty good with Harrison and Edge.

As for Brady, I've said it a number of times, he's pretty good, but he's very overrated. He gets more credit than he deserves. He's the only star on that team, but he's a star because the media has made him that. The Pats D goes out and wins the game, and Brady gets most of the credit. In 5 of the 6 playoff wins for the Pats, Brady was a total non-factor. Only this past Super Bowl Brady had a big game. I think at least 7 or 8 QBs could have won the Super Bowl with the Pats. Great D and a very low risk, dink and dunk offense. Brady is good, but I wouldn't even think of putting him in the top 5.
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Old 07-14-2004, 05:10 PM   #94
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fair enough, a lot of valid points you made there but i still think he has a long way to go. Trent Green has a crapload of stats as well but no one is mentioning him in the same sentence and to me they both are almost identical. to me, they are both just products of their current offensive systems. i never said Peyton was bad just overrated. i believe Peyton has the right football mindset and arm to succeed but i want to see what he can do without all the talent around him. maybe im too old fashioned in the sense that i watched John carry the broncos to 3 super bowls in the 80s without a whole lot of help or talent around him. even though Kurt Warner has a ring it really was the system that got it for him. it can happen for Peyton as well but i just feel today's QB needs to have a more balanced attack both with his feet and arm and Peyton doesnt fit into that mold in my opinion.

If Manning won a superbowl this year all you would talk about is how he has Harrison and Edge yaada yaada yaada. Give me a break. You clearly have something personal against the guy.
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Old 07-14-2004, 05:12 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Goobzilla
First off let it be said that I could beat Brad Johnson, Kurt Warner and Trent Dilfer in a foot race and they all have rings.

I also respect the hell out of your takes on this board and I'm not trying to start a pissing contest here. I think he's a hell of a QB regardless of any "baggage" people think he might have.

In no particular order these are the guys I go out of my way to find on Sunday Ticket when the Broncos aren't on:

Manning
Brady
Leftwich
Favre even though his game has slid a little

Ron

oh yea man, this is just debating. not a pissing contest as you put it. out of the four you listed i would put them in this order:


Brady
Favre
Manning
Leftwich ( still way early on him but what the hay )
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Old 07-14-2004, 05:18 PM   #96
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When I heard Manning say he was the best, I didn't think it was cocky at all. He was asked a question. He didn't just come out and say it.
The problem is that the people saying he was cocky for saying he was the best. Didn't even watch it.
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Old 07-14-2004, 05:19 PM   #97
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If Manning won a superbowl this year all you would talk about is how he has Harrison and Edge yaada yaada yaada. Give me a break. You clearly have something personal against the guy.

no, not really. i mean, i dont really like him but i never really liked him even when he was in college. but he has done more to impress me in the NFL then he ever did in college. i thought originally that out of him and Leaf that Manning would fall flat on his face. he proved me wrong in that respect. as far as Manning winning a super bowl, it all depends. if Manning has 100 yds passing with 5 ints but James carries for 250 yds and the defense holds the opponent to 7 points does that mean i have to give Manning credit? on the other hand, if he passes for 404 yds and 6 tds and 0 ints and the rest of the team does squat. then yea, he will get my respect. but really OZO, if Manning is to win a SB anytime soon he will need Edge and Harrison. and he will need a line that will not force him to try and move cause if they cant protect him he's done. im not even sure how durable he is. he doesnt take that many hits so who knows if he can take any damage. i doubt it but we will have to wait and see.
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Old 07-14-2004, 05:19 PM   #98
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The problem is that the people saying he was cocky for saying he was the best. Didn't even watch it.
That's the feeling that I'm getting. In print it looks bad. When watching it, it didn't sound bad at all.
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Old 07-14-2004, 05:23 PM   #99
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The problem is that the people saying he was cocky for saying he was the best. Didn't even watch it.

i didnt have to watch it. i would criticize any athlete who behave like that. you make it sound like the entire world is just picking on your boy Manning.
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Old 07-14-2004, 05:42 PM   #100
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oh yea man, this is just debating. not a pissing contest as you put it. out of the four you listed i would put them in this order:


Brady
Favre
Manning
Leftwich ( still way early on him but what the hay )
It never hurts to get in on the ground floor on a good young QB, especially in the middle rounds of your FF draft.

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