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Old 07-19-2014, 09:01 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by bombay View Post
Washington Post story that went up for tomorrow's editions:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...fc2_story.html

-Russians supplied three Buk launchers to separatists

-Trained the separatists and may have even assisted in operations

-one of those three launchers fired the missile that downed MH17

-Russia has smuggled all three back across the border into Russia.
The question that that keeps coming up for me is why would Russia do this? They have zero to gain and everything to lose. It makes more sense that some entity that wanted to escalate the conflict did it and framed Putin. That leads to the question what is their agenda? Start WWIII is all I can come up with.
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Old 07-19-2014, 09:42 PM   #152
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The question that that keeps coming up for me is why would Russia do this? They have zero to gain and everything to lose. It makes more sense that some entity that wanted to escalate the conflict did it and framed Putin. That leads to the question what is their agenda? Start WWIII is all I can come up with.
Russians didn't want them to shoot down a civilian plane. I don't think anyone thinks that is the plan.
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Old 07-19-2014, 09:43 PM   #153
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Cut I don't know you but would like to hear your band and meet you. But when you put the word "somehow" in the statement above it just exemplifies the fairy tail world you live in. Every possible criticism, blame etc is part of that word as an outcome solution. I swear to god no one should be allowed to post in the war forum if you haven't taken a poltical science class. Honestly you just expose yourself as totally ignorant of how all ths **** works in the press, and behind the scenes. My father, may he rest in peace, was a career CIA officer and was both a republican and a democrat in his lifetime. I remember when Watergate broke out and the choice was Carter after Agnew and he looked at me as an 8 year old and said "better a scoundrel than a fool" in his support of Nixon but he was always pragmatic rather than dogmatic or ideological.

His biggest frustration would have been reading comments on this board from everyone who didn't know jack **** about politics, diplomacy, what was fed to the media, how to read between the lines, and covert intel that wasn't public (can't fault anyone there, I didn't even know what he did until I was 15) and the I'd do this (like anyone actually could) or the "somehow" that is just fodder for an opposing party to **** on. He already knew the situation and the rest of us armchair quarterbacks wouldn't find out about for another decade but he'd listen to people pontificate like they actually knew something.

Everyone get that? and yeah I'm preachy here, but we won't know anything for another decade about anything that is going on right now. Only the media spin right or left that clouds rather than elucidates.

But please, post as if you were omnipotent and could actually do something with this ****ed up congress. I agree with Roh that any time we have an international incident and everyone doesn't get behind the president as a show of US unity is doing nothing more than sabotaging the US. Putin is ****ing laughing at us for being divided, for McCains criticism, valid or not, for not looking unified. Everything he does is successful for him and a political opportunity for him as he watches a p***Y president get vilified by those looking for political gain.

Collectively as a Nation we should hold ourselves in shame.

And may I add this is what happens when you drunk post. I blame it on Broncosteven and his Ambien cocktail mix.

Dude come on out Aug 31st Long Beach Blues Festival.
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Old 07-19-2014, 09:47 PM   #154
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Russians didn't want them to shoot down a civilian plane. I don't think anyone thinks that is the plan.
Putin is guilty of supplying big toys to radical separatists. I'm sure he had a WTF moment when the news made it to him as well. I kinda think the shooter may have had a WTF moment when he realized as well.
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Old 07-19-2014, 09:48 PM   #155
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Russians didn't want them to shoot down a civilian plane. I don't think anyone thinks that is the plan.
If it was an accident why not admit it
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Old 07-19-2014, 10:05 PM   #156
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Dude come on out Aug 31st Long Beach Blues Festival.
How about LB gran prix? I'm there every year.
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Old 07-19-2014, 10:31 PM   #157
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The question that that keeps coming up for me is why would Russia do this? They have zero to gain and everything to lose. It makes more sense that some entity that wanted to escalate the conflict did it and framed Putin. That leads to the question what is their agenda? Start WWIII is all I can come up with.
Your kids will always push to see him much they can get away with. First with chimera, then. Its gonna get worse in ukrane before it gets better
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Old 07-19-2014, 10:32 PM   #158
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If it was an accident why not admit it
its a quasi proxie war.
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Old 07-20-2014, 05:41 AM   #159
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The question that that keeps coming up for me is why would Russia do this? They have zero to gain and everything to lose. It makes more sense that some entity that wanted to escalate the conflict did it and framed Putin. That leads to the question what is their agenda? Start WWIII is all I can come up with.
Sometimes, things happen because the people involved are stupid and probably drunk. Not everything is a conspiracy.
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Old 07-20-2014, 12:46 PM   #160
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Sometimes, things happen because the people involved are stupid and probably drunk. Not everything is a conspiracy.
Sometimes things are the way they are not they way you want them.
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Old 07-20-2014, 01:23 PM   #161
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Sometimes, things happen because the people involved are stupid and probably drunk. Not everything is a conspiracy.
On the money, I think. Very poorly trained and fairly incompetent 'soldiers'.

Last edited by bombay; 07-20-2014 at 01:26 PM..
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Old 07-20-2014, 01:44 PM   #162
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Sometimes things are the way they are not they way you want them.
We don't know what we don't know.
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Old 07-20-2014, 02:33 PM   #163
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We don't know what we don't know.
"There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know."
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Old 07-20-2014, 02:35 PM   #164
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"There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know."
So very true.
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Old 07-20-2014, 02:53 PM   #165
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On the money, I think. Very poorly trained and fairly incompetent 'soldiers'.
Exactly. They gave the wrong thing to the wrong person. Would you give something like that to one of these idiots?

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Old 07-20-2014, 02:58 PM   #166
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We don't know what we don't know.
We know where the missile came from and what kind of missile it had to be. The rest does not matter.
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Old 07-20-2014, 03:07 PM   #167
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We know where the missile came from and what kind of missile it had to be. The rest does not matter.

It could have been an accident or an idiot acting alone. It would be stupid in the extreme if the Russian government ordered this.
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Old 07-20-2014, 03:54 PM   #168
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Putin is guilty of supplying big toys to radical separatists.
not that I support Putin in any way, but the US has literally done this (or something functionally equivalent) on about a million different occasions.
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Old 07-20-2014, 04:04 PM   #169
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not that I support Putin in any way, but the US has literally done this (or something functionally equivalent) on about a million different occasions.
It's amazing how often the "law of unintended consequences" kicks in. Putin probably thought he was getting off easy by paying off a bunch of thugs under the table to do his dirty work for him. But this is the kind of result you get when hiring idiots.
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Old 07-20-2014, 04:07 PM   #170
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not that I support Putin in any way, but the US has literally done this (or something functionally equivalent) on about a million different occasions.
The US did a similar thing over Iran's air space. It's a bad thing but not a reason to start WWIII;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

Iran Air Flight 655
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Iran Air Flight 655


Iran–Iraq War
Iran Air Flight 655 was an Iran Air civilian passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai that was shot down by the United States Navy guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes on 3 July 1988. The attack took place in Iranian airspace, over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian Gulf, and on the flight's usual flight path. The aircraft, an Airbus A300 B2-203, was destroyed by SM-2MR surface-to-air missiles fired from the Vincennes.

All 290 on board, including 66 children and 16 crew, died.[1] This attack ranks seventh among the deadliest disasters in aviation history, tenth if including the 9/11 attacks, which includes ground casualties; the incident retains the highest death toll of any aviation incident in the Persian Gulf and the highest death toll of any incident involving an Airbus aircraft anywhere in the world.[2] The Vincennes had entered Iranian territorial waters after one of its helicopters drew warning fire from Iranian speedboats operating within Iranian territorial limits.[3]

According to the Iranian government, Vincennes negligently shot down the civilian aircraft: the airliner was making IFF squawks in Mode III (not Mode II used by Iranian military planes), a signal that identified it as a civilian craft, and operators of Vincennes mistook for Mode II.[4]

According to the United States Government, the crew incorrectly identified the Iranian Airbus A300 as an attacking F-14A Tomcat fighter, a plane made in the United States and operated at that time by only two forces worldwide, the United States Navy and the Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force. The Iranian F-14's at that time had no anti-ship capability.[5]

The US Navy had claimed that the Vincennes was defending itself in international waters at the time of the incident. Later disclosures would prove that the Vincennes had entered into Iranian waters and initiated hostilities. This was a key fact that was left out of the public inquiry led by Admiral Fogarty.
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Old 07-20-2014, 04:35 PM   #171
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BS the Vincennes had been dogged by Iranian gunboats leading up to the disaster. The Vincenes engaged and the retreated back to iranian waters. The Vincenes then shot down the plane.

Not like Iran didn't play a huge part in it. Hopefull Putin will pay out to the victims families like the USA did.

The USA also stepped up and admitted it, so there is that.
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Old 07-20-2014, 04:42 PM   #172
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BS the Vincennes had been dogged by Iranian gunboats leading up to the disaster. The Vincenes engaged and the retreated back to iranian waters. The Vincenes then shot down the plane.

Not like Iran didn't play a huge part in it. Hopefull Putin will pay out to the victims families like the USA did.

The USA also stepped up and admitted it, so there is that.
All I am saying is tragic things happen even though they were unintended.

and yes the right thing to do is admit their part in it and pay restitution

Last edited by baja; 07-20-2014 at 04:57 PM..
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Old 07-20-2014, 05:09 PM   #173
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All I am saying is tragic things happen even though they were unintended.

and yes the right thing to do is admit their part in it and pay restitution
its Russia's form of Benghazi..
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Old 07-20-2014, 05:31 PM   #174
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its Russia's form of Benghazi..
Maybe we could send Issa over there?
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Old 07-20-2014, 05:35 PM   #175
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Maybe we could send Issa over there?
right.. Wonder who plays the Russian Hilary..
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