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Old 07-19-2014, 09:48 PM   #151
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Russians didn't want them to shoot down a civilian plane. I don't think anyone thinks that is the plan.
If it was an accident why not admit it
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Old 07-19-2014, 10:05 PM   #152
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Old 07-19-2014, 10:31 PM   #153
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The question that that keeps coming up for me is why would Russia do this? They have zero to gain and everything to lose. It makes more sense that some entity that wanted to escalate the conflict did it and framed Putin. That leads to the question what is their agenda? Start WWIII is all I can come up with.
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Old 07-19-2014, 10:32 PM   #154
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If it was an accident why not admit it
its a quasi proxie war.
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Old 07-20-2014, 05:41 AM   #155
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The question that that keeps coming up for me is why would Russia do this? They have zero to gain and everything to lose. It makes more sense that some entity that wanted to escalate the conflict did it and framed Putin. That leads to the question what is their agenda? Start WWIII is all I can come up with.
Sometimes, things happen because the people involved are stupid and probably drunk. Not everything is a conspiracy.
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Old 07-20-2014, 12:46 PM   #156
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Sometimes, things happen because the people involved are stupid and probably drunk. Not everything is a conspiracy.
Sometimes things are the way they are not they way you want them.
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Old 07-20-2014, 01:23 PM   #157
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Sometimes, things happen because the people involved are stupid and probably drunk. Not everything is a conspiracy.
On the money, I think. Very poorly trained and fairly incompetent 'soldiers'.

Last edited by bombay; 07-20-2014 at 01:26 PM..
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Old 07-20-2014, 01:44 PM   #158
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Sometimes things are the way they are not they way you want them.
We don't know what we don't know.
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Old 07-20-2014, 02:33 PM   #159
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We don't know what we don't know.
"There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know."
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Old 07-20-2014, 02:35 PM   #160
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"There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know."
So very true.
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Old 07-20-2014, 02:53 PM   #161
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On the money, I think. Very poorly trained and fairly incompetent 'soldiers'.
Exactly. They gave the wrong thing to the wrong person. Would you give something like that to one of these idiots?

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Old 07-20-2014, 02:58 PM   #162
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We don't know what we don't know.
We know where the missile came from and what kind of missile it had to be. The rest does not matter.
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Old 07-20-2014, 03:07 PM   #163
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We know where the missile came from and what kind of missile it had to be. The rest does not matter.

It could have been an accident or an idiot acting alone. It would be stupid in the extreme if the Russian government ordered this.
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Old 07-20-2014, 03:54 PM   #164
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Putin is guilty of supplying big toys to radical separatists.
not that I support Putin in any way, but the US has literally done this (or something functionally equivalent) on about a million different occasions.
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Old 07-20-2014, 04:04 PM   #165
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not that I support Putin in any way, but the US has literally done this (or something functionally equivalent) on about a million different occasions.
It's amazing how often the "law of unintended consequences" kicks in. Putin probably thought he was getting off easy by paying off a bunch of thugs under the table to do his dirty work for him. But this is the kind of result you get when hiring idiots.
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Old 07-20-2014, 04:07 PM   #166
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not that I support Putin in any way, but the US has literally done this (or something functionally equivalent) on about a million different occasions.
The US did a similar thing over Iran's air space. It's a bad thing but not a reason to start WWIII;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

Iran Air Flight 655
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Iran Air Flight 655


Iran–Iraq War
Iran Air Flight 655 was an Iran Air civilian passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai that was shot down by the United States Navy guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes on 3 July 1988. The attack took place in Iranian airspace, over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian Gulf, and on the flight's usual flight path. The aircraft, an Airbus A300 B2-203, was destroyed by SM-2MR surface-to-air missiles fired from the Vincennes.

All 290 on board, including 66 children and 16 crew, died.[1] This attack ranks seventh among the deadliest disasters in aviation history, tenth if including the 9/11 attacks, which includes ground casualties; the incident retains the highest death toll of any aviation incident in the Persian Gulf and the highest death toll of any incident involving an Airbus aircraft anywhere in the world.[2] The Vincennes had entered Iranian territorial waters after one of its helicopters drew warning fire from Iranian speedboats operating within Iranian territorial limits.[3]

According to the Iranian government, Vincennes negligently shot down the civilian aircraft: the airliner was making IFF squawks in Mode III (not Mode II used by Iranian military planes), a signal that identified it as a civilian craft, and operators of Vincennes mistook for Mode II.[4]

According to the United States Government, the crew incorrectly identified the Iranian Airbus A300 as an attacking F-14A Tomcat fighter, a plane made in the United States and operated at that time by only two forces worldwide, the United States Navy and the Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force. The Iranian F-14's at that time had no anti-ship capability.[5]

The US Navy had claimed that the Vincennes was defending itself in international waters at the time of the incident. Later disclosures would prove that the Vincennes had entered into Iranian waters and initiated hostilities. This was a key fact that was left out of the public inquiry led by Admiral Fogarty.
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Old 07-20-2014, 04:35 PM   #167
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BS the Vincennes had been dogged by Iranian gunboats leading up to the disaster. The Vincenes engaged and the retreated back to iranian waters. The Vincenes then shot down the plane.

Not like Iran didn't play a huge part in it. Hopefull Putin will pay out to the victims families like the USA did.

The USA also stepped up and admitted it, so there is that.
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Old 07-20-2014, 04:42 PM   #168
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BS the Vincennes had been dogged by Iranian gunboats leading up to the disaster. The Vincenes engaged and the retreated back to iranian waters. The Vincenes then shot down the plane.

Not like Iran didn't play a huge part in it. Hopefull Putin will pay out to the victims families like the USA did.

The USA also stepped up and admitted it, so there is that.
All I am saying is tragic things happen even though they were unintended.

and yes the right thing to do is admit their part in it and pay restitution

Last edited by baja; 07-20-2014 at 04:57 PM..
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Old 07-20-2014, 05:31 PM   #169
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its Russia's form of Benghazi..
Maybe we could send Issa over there?
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Old 07-20-2014, 05:36 PM   #170
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The US did a similar thing over Iran's air space. It's a bad thing but not a reason to start WWIII;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

Iran Air Flight 655
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Iran Air Flight 655


Iran–Iraq War
Iran Air Flight 655 was an Iran Air civilian passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai that was shot down by the United States Navy guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes on 3 July 1988. The attack took place in Iranian airspace, over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian Gulf, and on the flight's usual flight path. The aircraft, an Airbus A300 B2-203, was destroyed by SM-2MR surface-to-air missiles fired from the Vincennes.

All 290 on board, including 66 children and 16 crew, died.[1] This attack ranks seventh among the deadliest disasters in aviation history, tenth if including the 9/11 attacks, which includes ground casualties; the incident retains the highest death toll of any aviation incident in the Persian Gulf and the highest death toll of any incident involving an Airbus aircraft anywhere in the world.[2] The Vincennes had entered Iranian territorial waters after one of its helicopters drew warning fire from Iranian speedboats operating within Iranian territorial limits.[3]

According to the Iranian government, Vincennes negligently shot down the civilian aircraft: the airliner was making IFF squawks in Mode III (not Mode II used by Iranian military planes), a signal that identified it as a civilian craft, and operators of Vincennes mistook for Mode II.[4]

According to the United States Government, the crew incorrectly identified the Iranian Airbus A300 as an attacking F-14A Tomcat fighter, a plane made in the United States and operated at that time by only two forces worldwide, the United States Navy and the Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force. The Iranian F-14's at that time had no anti-ship capability.[5]

The US Navy had claimed that the Vincennes was defending itself in international waters at the time of the incident. Later disclosures would prove that the Vincennes had entered into Iranian waters and initiated hostilities. This was a key fact that was left out of the public inquiry led by Admiral Fogarty.
Exactly

Last edited by rmsanger; 07-20-2014 at 05:39 PM..
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Old 07-20-2014, 05:38 PM   #171
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Quote:
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BS the Vincennes had been dogged by Iranian gunboats leading up to the disaster. The Vincenes engaged and the retreated back to iranian waters. The Vincenes then shot down the plane.

Not like Iran didn't play a huge part in it. Hopefull Putin will pay out to the victims families like the USA did.

The USA also stepped up and admitted it, so there is that.
Lulz their system clearly recorded the commercial liner as such. An f14 would have a completely different signature. You're making excuses and the ish was clearly the fault of commander and crew.
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Old 07-20-2014, 06:00 PM   #172
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Lulz their system clearly recorded the commercial liner as such. An f14 would have a completely different signature. You're making excuses and the ish was clearly the fault of commander and crew.
Not saying it wasn't a huge mistake, but everything i said was true. That was how the incident unfolded.
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Old 07-21-2014, 09:41 PM   #173
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Old 07-22-2014, 02:51 AM   #174
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The question that that keeps coming up for me is why would Russia do this? They have zero to gain and everything to lose. It makes more sense that some entity that wanted to escalate the conflict did it and framed Putin. That leads to the question what is their agenda? Start WWIII is all I can come up with.
The downing of MH17 was not the goal it was side event in this conflict. Russian and its separatists need to ensure that had control over the air in eastern Ukraine to prevent the Ukraine air support from being the decisive edge in ongoing battles. The Russians can not put their Air Force in the area without being seen and giving away their hand. Giving the rebels SAMs and they achieve that goal at low cost to themselves.
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Old 07-22-2014, 04:11 AM   #175
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The Russians are putting some reasonably serious weapons in the hands of untrained, undisciplined, and unaccountable people. I'm actually somewhat surprised (and relieved) that they don't have a more professional proxy in Ukraine.
I don't believe for one moment that Russia simply 'turned over' this type of equipment. I'll guarantee there were Russian 'advisers' with the launcher. We do the same shiat btw.
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