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#151 |
A verbis ad verbera
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 39,063
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![]() I wouldn't expect Obama to be able to figure out how to handle Putin. I don't really consider them the biggest threat but you could be right Meck. I sort of see the crazy religious ones like Iran, or the crazy, just plain crazy N Koreans etc.
Meck what would you like to see. IMO Turkey should close Russian access to the open ocean. |
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#152 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 17,397
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What I would like to see in Ukraine is what Ukranian's want. They want to be part of the EU and rid themselves of the oppressive backward world of Russia. Cutt Putin is going full on Saddam,North Korea. The propoganda that is coming out of there is unreal. People like pricej eat it up. Putin has a massive staff of highly paid bloggers that pump that **** out and sadly the naive believe it. Meanwhile Putin is killing and beating his own people. For ****s sake did you see the teenage girls that got their asses kicked in Sochi? That's nothing! He recently banned something like 20,000,000 people from leaving russia. He's clamping down on freedom, the internet. Forget the Iron curtain. He's building the modern day great wall of china and wants to suck up as much land and resources as possible. Ukraine can handle itself. All Obama has to do is have a little back bone and step up with the sanctions instead of all the empty rhetoric. Russia's economy is in a tailspin. There is a truce that was signed that expires monday. We will see what happens but not holding my breath. The average citizen hasn't taken up arms yet. They will next week if Putin doesn't start moving his troops out. POS won't even admit he has tanks on the ground. Oh here is what life is like in Crimea. Even the Russkies regret it now. Idiots. http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/06/3...laugh-at-them/ Cutt Ukaine is a rich beautiful country that has continually been sucked dry by Russia. It's extremely fertile land. Hard working people. They want to be part of europe and live a modern lifestyle like the rest of Europe. If they can pull it off Ukraine could very well be the biggest NEW destination for world travelers once they finally kick the ****ing commie criminals out. Ukraine is the front. If Ukraine goes down rest assured Putin will taste blood in the water and Obama's weakness. The rest of the old Soviet union will be the target. That could easily spiral into a massive war which is why I think Putin is the greatest thread. North Korea doesn't have the mentality of expansion like Russia. Hell Putin still thinks Alaska should be his. This notion that Ukraine needed the CIA to revolt is just russian BS. Ukraine has been fighting the russian for over a 1,000 years since RUSSIA split off from Ukraine. See Kievan Rus. Ukraine is older than Russia! We have our own very distinct culture and language that Ukraine wants to preserve. The United States has nothing to do with it. |
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#153 | |
Ring of Famer
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 8,816
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#154 | |
Just hanging out.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Denver
Posts: 15,125
Adopt-a-Bronco: The Team |
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"If self-proclaimed Crimean authorities or so-called self-defense fighters commit violence against Crimean Tatars living in the peninsula, Turkey will be forced to close the Bosphorus for passage of Russian ships,” the prime minister of Turkey said in a television program. … |
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#155 | |
jungle
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 21,556
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I've posted this over and over again and you refuse to acknowledge it. Making crap up as you go along. I'm not sure exactly what your problem is, but you're way off base. |
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#156 |
jungle
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 21,556
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![]() The more this escalates, the more potential this has to turn into WW3.
That's not a joke. |
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#157 | |
Ring of Famer
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 17,459
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#158 | |
A verbis ad verbera
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 39,063
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You can be a world power and then sit back and say **** the world. |
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#159 |
A verbis ad verbera
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 39,063
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#160 | |
A verbis ad verbera
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 39,063
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#161 | |
jungle
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 21,556
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If people want to build their own countries, go for it. Ukraine seems to be doing a fine job on their own. I don't think the US should be handing out weapons to extremists and bombing the crap out of civilians pushing our way of life on them. As far as Iraq goes, both ISIS and al-Maliki are fighting with American weapons. What's done is done. There have been lots of mistakes made on all fronts by everybody. In the end, none of it will matter. US intervention is only making things worse. I only care about US interests. Secure US borders, ensure anti-nuclear proliferation, and deal correctly with Putin. What is dealing correctly with Putin? Easy. Don't spend $5B trying to oust Yanukovych in order to expand NATO's reach eastward. If you do, don't act confused in the ensuing events. Everything is all well and good until you realize you have a cornered and caged bear with nukes, on your hands. Ukraine joins the EU (with promised assistance from the IMF) immediately after gaining their independence? Putin says not hardly. If Ukrainians wanted to oust their leader Yanukovych, great. Let them do it. The US and EU got involved, so Putin got involved. End of story. Last edited by pricejj; 07-01-2014 at 03:00 AM.. |
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#162 |
jungle
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 21,556
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![]() Americans like me? You're the guy who said you liked Putin. All I said, was that Ukrainians should handle it on their own. Maybe he should direct his anger at you?
This guy is obviously upset, because his wife's family is over in Ukraine and they are going through a civil war. My wife's family is from South Sudan and they are going through a civil war. You don't see me on here saying promoting for the US to get involved in South Sudan do you? No. I say stay away. Some other guy might have family in Egypt. Stay away from that too. You can see where this is going. According to your logic, we should invade and police Nigeria, Libya, Ukraine, Iraq, Syria. etc. ad nauseaum. Sorry bud, that's just not gonna fly. Yes, there are certain situations where the US should be involved. Anti-nuclear proliferation is one. Helping to broker peace agreements is another. Selling arms to everybody, and overthrowing legitimate governments is not something the US should be involved with. Whether or not the US had anything to do with Klitschko and crew in Ukraine is water under the bridge now. The Ukraine just joined the EU, and Putin reckons he can't afford that. Obviously Obama and Biden are idiots who have botched this since the beginning and can't be depended on for anything. Now it's up to the toothless EU, who have been courting Ukraine all along, and that's the reason Putin is pissed. The time for the US to do anything positive about the situation passed when Obama gave an empty threat to Putin months ago. |
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#163 |
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 17,397
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![]() [QUOTE=
Yes, there are certain situations where the US should be involved. Anti-nuclear proliferation is one. Helping to broker peace agreements is another.[/QUOTE] Sure like Bill Clinton did. This isn't SUDAN. There was a deal MADE. Security assurances for Ukraine if they gave up their nukes. Read up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapes...ity_Assurances Last edited by Meck77; 07-01-2014 at 06:38 AM.. |
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#164 |
Partisan
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Trumpville (like Potterville, but stupider)
Posts: 73,689
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![]() Putin already committed one act of war when Russian troops invaded and seized the Crimea. The world let him get away with it. Hitler? Sudetenland? Anybody?
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#165 |
Ring of Famer
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 17,459
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#166 | |
jungle
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 21,556
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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/30/op...anted=all&_r=0 In 2009, Gorbachev called US politicians liars for not holding up their end of the bargain. I don't agree with what Putin is doing, what the US is doing, or what the EU is doing. However, I can see exactly why Putin is being an aggressor now. The EU has gobbled up all the former Soviet states and has isolated Russia. Russia is a caged bear with a collapsing economy. Every cause has an effect. I believe the US should have had a much stronger relationship with Putin all along. I also have to wonder, if the Ukrainians wanted sovereignty so much, why are they joining the EU? Seems counter-productive. I know there are a lot of ways to get through to Putin. Obama's empty threats don't do anything but exacerbate the situation. |
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#167 |
A verbis ad verbera
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 39,063
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![]() I didn't say I liked Putin. I said I don't have a huge problem with him. But I honestly did not know that Ukraine was in such a violent twist. I thought it had calmed down and he was just keeping Crimea for his naval bases.
I had no idea really until Meck talked about his family there. I have no love for Putin, I want to see our President thwart his policies. |
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#168 | |
jungle
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 21,556
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Obviously, there's a very fine line. Don't go the "Americans like you" route. Any sane person knows the difference between right and wrong, what works and what doesn't, and cause and effect. The US doesn't have the resources to be the world's policeman in every domestic conflict nor should it be. The world map is being redrawn on several fronts primarily because of this administration's policies. Excuse me if I am not gung ho about promoting more Obama-style warfare. |
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#169 |
A verbis ad verbera
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 39,063
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![]() No Price I really do believe that your theory of staying out of everything will lead to even bigger wars and more death.
We are all basically the same. Want good things for friends and family and as safe of a world as we can manage to achieve. We just disagree that non intervention leads to that. I believe America should intervene, should lead, you believe we shouldn't. |
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#170 |
A verbis ad verbera
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 39,063
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![]() I agree we can't get involved in every conflict but I stand by my belief that Obama and the way he leads from behind (his own words) diminishes our influence and in turn makes us less safe.
No one really wants to have to fight wars or send troops places. But countries like N Korea, Iran for sure need a buffer in their regions. If Obama said pull out of S Korea everyone would say he is crazy right? |
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#171 | |
jungle
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 21,556
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Libertarians don't believe in isolationism either. Responsible policy is key. I think Bush acted responsibly in Iraq for his mission, and don't blame him for that. Saddam invaded Kuwait, and used chemical weapons, a clear breach of international law. I believe if people want their leader removed, they will do it themselves. US foreign policy shouldn't be driven by the corporate interests of the military-industrial complex. That is what I am against. I fully supported Operation Desert Storm, George Bush's blitzkrieg assault to remove Saddam from Kuwait. I do not support the mission behind Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan. I don't think putting Karzai in power in Afghanistan was in anybody's best interest. That being said, since troops are there, I fully support them doing all they can to restore peace. I did not support the mission behind Operation Iraqi Freedom in Iraq, though I understand why it happened. I just think the Iraqi people would have removed Saddam if they really didn't like him. Once he was removed, American troops did the best they could to restore peace, and I support that. I whole-heartedly support the troops no matter what their mission as long as they seek to eliminate chaos instead of spreading it. Their only choice is to do their job. I believe the US mission is to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons, and prevent tyrants from spreading oppression to foreign lands. Violent Islamism wasn't a threat to the US prior to US occupation, and it won't be a problem after. I equate 'the War on Terror' to 'the War on Drugs'. Both are unnecessary and driven by the military-industrial complex and the big bureaucracy. 1. The time to act with Putin was when he was rolling tanks in to Crimea. If Ukraine truly wanted independence (and not alignment with the EU), I don't think Putin would have done anything. Making empty threats (like Obama) is the exact opposite of what should have been done. You act, or don't act. It's simple. 2. The time to act in Iraq is also over. Obama had intelligence that ISIS was gathering on the border of Iraq and Syria for months. He supplied them with weapons. Completely irresponsible. Now ISIS seeks to establish their own country and there is nothing the US can or should do to stop them. Like I said, our mission is to reduce oppression, not exacerbate it. 3. Iran should also be handled much differently. The ship is sailing on that one too. If the US truly believes that Iran is developing nuclear weapons, then a strict procedure should be enforced leading up to the removal of the nuclear facilities by force. Simple. 4. Libya, Egypt, Somalia - All these places are in shambles now due to Obama's irresponsible policy. Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should the US be giving weapons to anyone. Not the Mexican drug gangs (Fast & Furious), not ISIS, not the Muslim Brotherhood. No one. Last edited by pricejj; 07-01-2014 at 06:18 PM.. |
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#172 | |
A verbis ad verbera
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 39,063
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IMO Egypt and Libya were most helping to stop Iran from getting nukes. I never understood why we let those two leaders get thrown under the bus. Democracy not right for every country at every time. Egypt wasn't ready. Libya actually dismantled all centrifuges and gave us info on what ones Iran were using. |
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#173 |
Living the Dream
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Boulder County
Posts: 2,364
Adopt-a-Bronco: Chris Harris |
![]() Putin looks up to Stalin, so he was emulating Joe's cost-free takeover of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. And the world didn't give a damn then, either.
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#174 |
jungle
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 21,556
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![]() Another couple points Cut:
1. I support US Defense spending of 20% of federal tax revenues according to the Ryan plan. 2. I support complete elimination of the Dept. of Homeland Security, including the Patriot Act. |
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#175 | |
A verbis ad verbera
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 39,063
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What would 20% be compared to what we have been spending? |
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