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Old 06-30-2014, 04:10 AM   #151
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I wouldn't expect Obama to be able to figure out how to handle Putin. I don't really consider them the biggest threat but you could be right Meck. I sort of see the crazy religious ones like Iran, or the crazy, just plain crazy N Koreans etc.

Meck what would you like to see. IMO Turkey should close Russian access to the open ocean.
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Old 06-30-2014, 04:58 AM   #152
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I wouldn't expect Obama to be able to figure out how to handle Putin. I don't really consider them the biggest threat but you could be right Meck. I sort of see the crazy religious ones like Iran, or the crazy, just plain crazy N Koreans etc.

Meck what would you like to see. IMO Turkey should close Russian access to the open ocean.
Considering the ****ing french just sold Putin a couple war ships so he can better expand the Soviet Union again it would be nice to see Turkey step up.

What I would like to see in Ukraine is what Ukranian's want. They want to be part of the EU and rid themselves of the oppressive backward world of Russia. Cutt Putin is going full on Saddam,North Korea. The propoganda that is coming out of there is unreal. People like pricej eat it up. Putin has a massive staff of highly paid bloggers that pump that **** out and sadly the naive believe it.

Meanwhile Putin is killing and beating his own people. For ****s sake did you see the teenage girls that got their asses kicked in Sochi? That's nothing! He recently banned something like 20,000,000 people from leaving russia. He's clamping down on freedom, the internet. Forget the Iron curtain. He's building the modern day great wall of china and wants to suck up as much land and resources as possible.

Ukraine can handle itself. All Obama has to do is have a little back bone and step up with the sanctions instead of all the empty rhetoric. Russia's economy is in a tailspin. There is a truce that was signed that expires monday. We will see what happens but not holding my breath.

The average citizen hasn't taken up arms yet. They will next week if Putin doesn't start moving his troops out. POS won't even admit he has tanks on the ground.

Oh here is what life is like in Crimea. Even the Russkies regret it now. Idiots. http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/06/3...laugh-at-them/

Cutt Ukaine is a rich beautiful country that has continually been sucked dry by Russia. It's extremely fertile land. Hard working people. They want to be part of europe and live a modern lifestyle like the rest of Europe. If they can pull it off Ukraine could very well be the biggest NEW destination for world travelers once they finally kick the ****ing commie criminals out.

Ukraine is the front. If Ukraine goes down rest assured Putin will taste blood in the water and Obama's weakness. The rest of the old Soviet union will be the target. That could easily spiral into a massive war which is why I think Putin is the greatest thread. North Korea doesn't have the mentality of expansion like Russia. Hell Putin still thinks Alaska should be his.

This notion that Ukraine needed the CIA to revolt is just russian BS. Ukraine has been fighting the russian for over a 1,000 years since RUSSIA split off from Ukraine. See Kievan Rus. Ukraine is older than Russia!

We have our own very distinct culture and language that Ukraine wants to preserve. The United States has nothing to do with it.
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Old 06-30-2014, 08:33 AM   #153
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Considering the ****ing french just sold Putin a couple war ships so he can better expand the Soviet Union again it would be nice to see Turkey step up.

What I would like to see in Ukraine is what Ukranian's want. They want to be part of the EU and rid themselves of the oppressive backward world of Russia. Cutt Putin is going full on Saddam,North Korea. The propoganda that is coming out of there is unreal. People like pricej eat it up. Putin has a massive staff of highly paid bloggers that pump that **** out and sadly the naive believe it.

Meanwhile Putin is killing and beating his own people. For ****s sake did you see the teenage girls that got their asses kicked in Sochi? That's nothing! He recently banned something like 20,000,000 people from leaving russia. He's clamping down on freedom, the internet. Forget the Iron curtain. He's building the modern day great wall of china and wants to suck up as much land and resources as possible.

Ukraine can handle itself. All Obama has to do is have a little back bone and step up with the sanctions instead of all the empty rhetoric. Russia's economy is in a tailspin. There is a truce that was signed that expires monday. We will see what happens but not holding my breath.

The average citizen hasn't taken up arms yet. They will next week if Putin doesn't start moving his troops out. POS won't even admit he has tanks on the ground.

Oh here is what life is like in Crimea. Even the Russkies regret it now. Idiots. http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/06/3...laugh-at-them/

Cutt Ukaine is a rich beautiful country that has continually been sucked dry by Russia. It's extremely fertile land. Hard working people. They want to be part of europe and live a modern lifestyle like the rest of Europe. If they can pull it off Ukraine could very well be the biggest NEW destination for world travelers once they finally kick the ****ing commie criminals out.

Ukraine is the front. If Ukraine goes down rest assured Putin will taste blood in the water and Obama's weakness. The rest of the old Soviet union will be the target. That could easily spiral into a massive war which is why I think Putin is the greatest thread. North Korea doesn't have the mentality of expansion like Russia. Hell Putin still thinks Alaska should be his.

This notion that Ukraine needed the CIA to revolt is just russian BS. Ukraine has been fighting the russian for over a 1,000 years since RUSSIA split off from Ukraine. See Kievan Rus. Ukraine is older than Russia!

We have our own very distinct culture and language that Ukraine wants to preserve. The United States has nothing to do with it.
There are already sanctions
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Old 06-30-2014, 09:30 AM   #154
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I wouldn't expect Obama to be able to figure out how to handle Putin. I don't really consider them the biggest threat but you could be right Meck. I sort of see the crazy religious ones like Iran, or the crazy, just plain crazy N Koreans etc.

Meck what would you like to see. IMO Turkey should close Russian access to the open ocean.
Over 3 months ago:

"If self-proclaimed Crimean authorities or so-called self-defense fighters
commit violence against Crimean Tatars living in the peninsula, Turkey will be
forced to close the Bosphorus for passage of Russian ships, the prime
minister of Turkey said in a television program.
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Old 06-30-2014, 01:57 PM   #155
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What I would like to see in Ukraine is what Ukranian's want. They want to be part of the EU and rid themselves of the oppressive backward world of Russia. Cutt Putin is going full on Saddam,North Korea. The propoganda that is coming out of there is unreal. People like pricej eat it up. Putin has a massive staff of highly paid bloggers that pump that **** out and sadly the naive believe it.
I don't support Putin. I don't support Ukraine. I'm a US citizen, who doesn't want to see the US involved. Take your twisted insults elsewhere. No where have I ever supported what you attribute to me.

I've posted this over and over again and you refuse to acknowledge it. Making crap up as you go along. I'm not sure exactly what your problem is, but you're way off base.
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Old 06-30-2014, 01:58 PM   #156
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The more this escalates, the more potential this has to turn into WW3.

That's not a joke.
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Old 06-30-2014, 02:14 PM   #157
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Considering the ****ing french just sold Putin a couple war ships so he can better expand the Soviet Union again it would be nice to see Turkey step up.

What I would like to see in Ukraine is what Ukranian's want. They want to be part of the EU and rid themselves of the oppressive backward world of Russia. Cutt Putin is going full on Saddam,North Korea. The propoganda that is coming out of there is unreal. People like pricej eat it up. Putin has a massive staff of highly paid bloggers that pump that **** out and sadly the naive believe it.

Meanwhile Putin is killing and beating his own people. For ****s sake did you see the teenage girls that got their asses kicked in Sochi? That's nothing! He recently banned something like 20,000,000 people from leaving russia. He's clamping down on freedom, the internet. Forget the Iron curtain. He's building the modern day great wall of china and wants to suck up as much land and resources as possible.

Ukraine can handle itself. All Obama has to do is have a little back bone and step up with the sanctions instead of all the empty rhetoric. Russia's economy is in a tailspin. There is a truce that was signed that expires monday. We will see what happens but not holding my breath.

The average citizen hasn't taken up arms yet. They will next week if Putin doesn't start moving his troops out. POS won't even admit he has tanks on the ground.

Oh here is what life is like in Crimea. Even the Russkies regret it now. Idiots. http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/06/3...laugh-at-them/

Cutt Ukaine is a rich beautiful country that has continually been sucked dry by Russia. It's extremely fertile land. Hard working people. They want to be part of europe and live a modern lifestyle like the rest of Europe. If they can pull it off Ukraine could very well be the biggest NEW destination for world travelers once they finally kick the ****ing commie criminals out.

Ukraine is the front. If Ukraine goes down rest assured Putin will taste blood in the water and Obama's weakness. The rest of the old Soviet union will be the target. That could easily spiral into a massive war which is why I think Putin is the greatest thread. North Korea doesn't have the mentality of expansion like Russia. Hell Putin still thinks Alaska should be his.

This notion that Ukraine needed the CIA to revolt is just russian BS. Ukraine has been fighting the russian for over a 1,000 years since RUSSIA split off from Ukraine. See Kievan Rus. Ukraine is older than Russia!

We have our own very distinct culture and language that Ukraine wants to preserve. The United States has nothing to do with it.
The Soviet Union broke up in 1991. The Cold War has been over for close to 25 years. But rip-van-winkle Meck apparently never noticed. MHG
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Old 06-30-2014, 02:20 PM   #158
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I don't support Putin. I don't support Ukraine. I'm a US citizen, who doesn't want to see the US involved. Take your twisted insults elsewhere. No where have I ever supported what you attribute to me.

I've posted this over and over again and you refuse to acknowledge it. Making crap up as you go along. I'm not sure exactly what your problem is, but you're way off base.
His problem is Americans like you. Who think that America can just sit back and let whatever happens in the world happen. It's doesn't work like that anymore, and when it did it basically caused ww2 getting out of hand. America should have declared war right along with Europe on that one.

You can be a world power and then sit back and say **** the world.
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Old 06-30-2014, 02:21 PM   #159
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The more this escalates, the more potential this has to turn into WW3.

That's not a joke.
Sorry but by not leading Obama is making it more likely it could be a huge war.
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Old 06-30-2014, 02:22 PM   #160
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I don't support Putin. I don't support Ukraine. I'm a US citizen, who doesn't want to see the US involved. Take your twisted insults elsewhere. No where have I ever supported what you attribute to me.

I've posted this over and over again and you refuse to acknowledge it. Making crap up as you go along. I'm not sure exactly what your problem is, but you're way off base.
Do you want immigration reform? Why do you care about immigrants but not people who want to build their own countries?
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Old 06-30-2014, 11:18 PM   #161
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Do you want immigration reform? Why do you care about immigrants but not people who want to build their own countries?
Immigration reform? How about enforcing the laws that we already have on the books? It's real simple, if you don't have legal authority to be in the US, you shouldn't be here. Do I care about Ukraine? No. I care about US citizens, and what is best for them. That entails enforcing border security, and shipping out illegals as soon as they arrive. Why? It's a safety and monetary threat to US sustainability.

If people want to build their own countries, go for it. Ukraine seems to be doing a fine job on their own. I don't think the US should be handing out weapons to extremists and bombing the crap out of civilians pushing our way of life on them.

As far as Iraq goes, both ISIS and al-Maliki are fighting with American weapons. What's done is done. There have been lots of mistakes made on all fronts by everybody. In the end, none of it will matter. US intervention is only making things worse.

I only care about US interests. Secure US borders, ensure anti-nuclear proliferation, and deal correctly with Putin. What is dealing correctly with Putin?

Easy. Don't spend $5B trying to oust Yanukovych in order to expand NATO's reach eastward. If you do, don't act confused in the ensuing events. Everything is all well and good until you realize you have a cornered and caged bear with nukes, on your hands.

Ukraine joins the EU (with promised assistance from the IMF) immediately after gaining their independence? Putin says not hardly.

If Ukrainians wanted to oust their leader Yanukovych, great. Let them do it. The US and EU got involved, so Putin got involved. End of story.

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Old 07-01-2014, 04:43 AM   #162
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His problem is Americans like you.
Americans like me? You're the guy who said you liked Putin. All I said, was that Ukrainians should handle it on their own. Maybe he should direct his anger at you?

This guy is obviously upset, because his wife's family is over in Ukraine and they are going through a civil war. My wife's family is from South Sudan and they are going through a civil war. You don't see me on here saying promoting for the US to get involved in South Sudan do you? No. I say stay away. Some other guy might have family in Egypt. Stay away from that too.

You can see where this is going. According to your logic, we should invade and police Nigeria, Libya, Ukraine, Iraq, Syria. etc. ad nauseaum. Sorry bud, that's just not gonna fly.

Yes, there are certain situations where the US should be involved. Anti-nuclear proliferation is one. Helping to broker peace agreements is another.

Selling arms to everybody, and overthrowing legitimate governments is not something the US should be involved with. Whether or not the US had anything to do with Klitschko and crew in Ukraine is water under the bridge now. The Ukraine just joined the EU, and Putin reckons he can't afford that. Obviously Obama and Biden are idiots who have botched this since the beginning and can't be depended on for anything. Now it's up to the toothless EU, who have been courting Ukraine all along, and that's the reason Putin is pissed. The time for the US to do anything positive about the situation passed when Obama gave an empty threat to Putin months ago.
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Old 07-01-2014, 07:31 AM   #163
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[QUOTE=

Yes, there are certain situations where the US should be involved. Anti-nuclear proliferation is one. Helping to broker peace agreements is another.[/QUOTE]

Sure like Bill Clinton did. This isn't SUDAN. There was a deal MADE. Security assurances for Ukraine if they gave up their nukes.

Read up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapes...ity_Assurances

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Old 07-01-2014, 08:06 AM   #164
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Putin already committed one act of war when Russian troops invaded and seized the Crimea. The world let him get away with it. Hitler? Sudetenland? Anybody?
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Old 07-01-2014, 01:45 PM   #165
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Putin already committed one act of war when Russian troops invaded and seized the Crimea. The world let him get away with it. Hitler? Sudetenland? Anybody?
Russia reabsorbing itself was an act of war?
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Old 07-01-2014, 02:47 PM   #166
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Sure like Bill Clinton did. This isn't SUDAN. There was a deal MADE. Security assurances for Ukraine if they gave up their nukes.

Read up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapes...ity_Assurances
NATO also made a deal with Gorbachev 20 years ago that they would not expand to the east.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/30/op...anted=all&_r=0

In 2009, Gorbachev called US politicians liars for not holding up their end of the bargain. I don't agree with what Putin is doing, what the US is doing, or what the EU is doing. However, I can see exactly why Putin is being an aggressor now. The EU has gobbled up all the former Soviet states and has isolated Russia. Russia is a caged bear with a collapsing economy. Every cause has an effect.

I believe the US should have had a much stronger relationship with Putin all along. I also have to wonder, if the Ukrainians wanted sovereignty so much, why are they joining the EU? Seems counter-productive.

I know there are a lot of ways to get through to Putin. Obama's empty threats don't do anything but exacerbate the situation.
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Old 07-01-2014, 03:36 PM   #167
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I didn't say I liked Putin. I said I don't have a huge problem with him. But I honestly did not know that Ukraine was in such a violent twist. I thought it had calmed down and he was just keeping Crimea for his naval bases.

I had no idea really until Meck talked about his family there.

I have no love for Putin, I want to see our President thwart his policies.
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Old 07-01-2014, 04:28 PM   #168
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But I honestly did not know that Ukraine was in such a violent twist. I thought it had calmed down and he was just keeping Crimea for his naval bases.

I had no idea really until Meck talked about his family there.
I had no idea either. That's why it's strange that you both immediately start calling me extremist, because I disagreed with the US policy in the region. I support defending the US and it's interests. I'm just against the misuse of US force and capital.

Obviously, there's a very fine line. Don't go the "Americans like you" route. Any sane person knows the difference between right and wrong, what works and what doesn't, and cause and effect. The US doesn't have the resources to be the world's policeman in every domestic conflict nor should it be. The world map is being redrawn on several fronts primarily because of this administration's policies. Excuse me if I am not gung ho about promoting more Obama-style warfare.
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Old 07-01-2014, 06:38 PM   #169
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No Price I really do believe that your theory of staying out of everything will lead to even bigger wars and more death.

We are all basically the same. Want good things for friends and family and as safe of a world as we can manage to achieve.

We just disagree that non intervention leads to that. I believe America should intervene, should lead, you believe we shouldn't.
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Old 07-01-2014, 06:41 PM   #170
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I agree we can't get involved in every conflict but I stand by my belief that Obama and the way he leads from behind (his own words) diminishes our influence and in turn makes us less safe.

No one really wants to have to fight wars or send troops places. But countries like N Korea, Iran for sure need a buffer in their regions.

If Obama said pull out of S Korea everyone would say he is crazy right?
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Old 07-01-2014, 07:03 PM   #171
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No Price I really do believe that your theory of staying out of everything will lead to even bigger wars and more death.

We are all basically the same. Want good things for friends and family and as safe of a world as we can manage to achieve.

We just disagree that non intervention leads to that. I believe America should intervene, should lead, you believe we shouldn't.
I don't have a theory of staying out of everything. You don't understand my stance.

Libertarians don't believe in isolationism either. Responsible policy is key. I think Bush acted responsibly in Iraq for his mission, and don't blame him for that. Saddam invaded Kuwait, and used chemical weapons, a clear breach of international law. I believe if people want their leader removed, they will do it themselves. US foreign policy shouldn't be driven by the corporate interests of the military-industrial complex. That is what I am against. I fully supported Operation Desert Storm, George Bush's blitzkrieg assault to remove Saddam from Kuwait. I do not support the mission behind Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan. I don't think putting Karzai in power in Afghanistan was in anybody's best interest. That being said, since troops are there, I fully support them doing all they can to restore peace. I did not support the mission behind Operation Iraqi Freedom in Iraq, though I understand why it happened. I just think the Iraqi people would have removed Saddam if they really didn't like him. Once he was removed, American troops did the best they could to restore peace, and I support that. I whole-heartedly support the troops no matter what their mission as long as they seek to eliminate chaos instead of spreading it. Their only choice is to do their job.



I believe the US mission is to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons, and prevent tyrants from spreading oppression to foreign lands. Violent Islamism wasn't a threat to the US prior to US occupation, and it won't be a problem after. I equate 'the War on Terror' to 'the War on Drugs'. Both are unnecessary and driven by the military-industrial complex and the big bureaucracy.

1. The time to act with Putin was when he was rolling tanks in to Crimea. If Ukraine truly wanted independence (and not alignment with the EU), I don't think Putin would have done anything. Making empty threats (like Obama) is the exact opposite of what should have been done. You act, or don't act. It's simple.

2. The time to act in Iraq is also over. Obama had intelligence that ISIS was gathering on the border of Iraq and Syria for months. He supplied them with weapons. Completely irresponsible. Now ISIS seeks to establish their own country and there is nothing the US can or should do to stop them. Like I said, our mission is to reduce oppression, not exacerbate it.

3. Iran should also be handled much differently. The ship is sailing on that one too. If the US truly believes that Iran is developing nuclear weapons, then a strict procedure should be enforced leading up to the removal of the nuclear facilities by force. Simple.

4. Libya, Egypt, Somalia - All these places are in shambles now due to Obama's irresponsible policy. Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should the US be giving weapons to anyone. Not the Mexican drug gangs (Fast & Furious), not ISIS, not the Muslim Brotherhood. No one.

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Old 07-01-2014, 07:21 PM   #172
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I don't have a theory of staying out of everything. You don't understand my stance.

Libertarians don't believe in isolationism either. Responsible policy is key. I think Bush acted responsibly in Iraq for his mission, and don't blame him for that. Saddam invaded Kuwait, and used chemical weapons, a clear breach of international law. I believe if people want their leader removed, they will do it themselves. US foreign policy shouldn't be driven by the corporate interests of the military-industrial complex. That is what I am against. I fully supported Operation Desert Storm, George Bush's blitzkrieg assault to remove Saddam from Kuwait. I do not support the mission behind Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan. I don't think putting Karzai in power in Afghanistan was in anybody's best interest. That being said, since troops are there, I fully support them doing all they can to restore peace. I did not support the mission behind Operation Iraqi Freedom in Iraq, though I understand why it happened. I just think the Iraqi people would have removed Saddam if they really didn't like him. Once he was removed, American troops did the best they could to restore peace, and I support that. I whole-heartedly support the troops no matter what their mission as long as they seek to eliminate chaos instead of spreading it. Their only choice is to do their job.



I believe the US mission is to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons, and prevent tyrants from spreading oppression to foreign lands. Violent Islamism wasn't a threat to the US prior to US occupation, and it won't be a problem after. I equate 'the War on Terror' to 'the War on Drugs'. Both are unnecessary and driven by the military-industrial complex and the big bureaucracy.

1. The time to act with Putin was when he was rolling tanks in to Crimea. If Ukraine truly wanted independence (and not alignment with the EU), I don't think Putin would have done anything. Making empty threats (like Obama) is the exact opposite of what should have been done. You act, or don't act. It's simple.

2. The time to act in Iraq is also over. Obama had intelligence that ISIS was gathering on the border of Iraq and Syria for months. He supplied them with weapons. Completely irresponsible. Now ISIS seeks to establish their own country and there is nothing the US can or should do to stop them. Like I said, our mission is to reduce oppression, not exacerbate it.

3. Iran should also be handled much differently. The ship is sailing on that one too. If the US truly believes that Iran is developing nuclear weapons, then a strict procedure should be enforced leading up to the removal of the nuclear facilities by force. Simple.

4. Libya, Egypt, Somalia - All these places are in shambles now due to Obama's irresponsible policy. Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should the US be giving weapons to anyone. Not the Mexican drug gangs (Fast & Furious), not ISIS, not the Muslim Brotherhood. No one.
I agree for the most part. I guess we just disagree on troops in Iraq. I feel that would help stop Iran from growing and getting nuclear weapons.

IMO Egypt and Libya were most helping to stop Iran from getting nukes. I never understood why we let those two leaders get thrown under the bus. Democracy not right for every country at every time. Egypt wasn't ready. Libya actually dismantled all centrifuges and gave us info on what ones Iran were using.
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Old 07-01-2014, 07:34 PM   #173
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Putin already committed one act of war when Russian troops invaded and seized the Crimea. The world let him get away with it. Hitler? Sudetenland? Anybody?
Putin looks up to Stalin, so he was emulating Joe's cost-free takeover of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. And the world didn't give a damn then, either.
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Old 07-01-2014, 07:46 PM   #174
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Another couple points Cut:

1. I support US Defense spending of 20% of federal tax revenues according to the Ryan plan.
2. I support complete elimination of the Dept. of Homeland Security, including the Patriot Act.
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Old 07-01-2014, 07:58 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by pricejj View Post
Another couple points Cut:

1. I support US Defense spending of 20% of federal tax revenues according to the Ryan plan.
2. I support complete elimination of the Dept. of Homeland Security, including the Patriot Act.
I agree that homeland security seems to have a mission other agencies already had. Make the CIA and the FBI work together to keep us safe. Get rid of Homeland security could probably happen without sacrificing security.

What would 20% be compared to what we have been spending?
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