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Old 06-24-2014, 04:53 PM   #76
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There's plenty of ignorance to go around.

Iron age mysticism and Women's Studies are both to blame.
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Old 06-24-2014, 04:54 PM   #77
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Old 06-24-2014, 05:20 PM   #78
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To me, "cult of anti-intellectualism" would imply people succeed because they are un-intellectual, or are celebrated for being un-intelligent. I don't see that being the case.

This is not a country where un-intellectuals succeed because they are un-intellectual. Sure, there are your sports stars and your pop-musicians, but they are relatively few and far between. They are celebrated because of their talents; not because they "keep it real" or whatever. There is no glorification of anti-intellectualism.

No, the way people succeed in this country is, and has been, thru education and innovation. By hustle. By hard work. By identifying opportunities and capitalizing on them. It's true now as it has been for the past 200 years.

The author waxes poetic about Japan and China's high education...I'll call BS on most of that. What modern innovations have these countries brought to the world? I'll give Japan modern Quality methods(automotive mainly), optical disk technology (CDs and DVD's) and that's mostly it. I've got nothing for China. Here in the States, we've got tons of stuff from space exploration to the ****ing internet.

Can our education improve? of course it can. But at the end of the day, results matter and the US of A is still the biggest economy in the world and it's not all that close.
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Old 06-24-2014, 05:23 PM   #79
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Hm...yes...maybe if we got rid of women's studies everything will be good...great ideas in here.
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Old 06-24-2014, 05:27 PM   #80
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But seriously, I always love when y'all start pointing fingers at liberal arts educations. One minute you're feeding the fires of the free market cult of Personal Choice, the next you're angrily marching to the computer screen to type up "not THOSE choices" lmao
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Old 06-24-2014, 05:27 PM   #81
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Would probably help if higher education focused on education and not classes on white guilt or radical feminism.

Because that matters.

That's funny. I never came across any of that curriculum, even in the one sociology class I took.
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Old 06-24-2014, 05:34 PM   #82
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Climate change. I rest my case.
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Old 06-24-2014, 05:46 PM   #83
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What kind of a country are you going to leave your kids?
I know one thing for sure, anyone who knows me well, including family, know how I feel about gender/racial equality and children's rights.

These things are far more problematic in the far east because they are deeply ingrained cultural (often but not always) tendencies rather than generalizing about education in the USA which is much more to do with parental tendencies (often but not always).

But yeah education is really important in the far east unless you're from the wrong gender/class/caste in which case you're mostly ****ed.
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Old 06-24-2014, 05:52 PM   #84
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But seriously, I always love when y'all start pointing fingers at liberal arts educations. One minute you're feeding the fires of the free market cult of Personal Choice, the next you're angrily marching to the computer screen to type up "not THOSE choices" lmao
Spot on.
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Old 06-24-2014, 05:58 PM   #85
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here's a fun fact: for all of western history until the Brits invented the factory-mill style education we currently still use in the mid 19th century--and, indeed, for some time after--the word "education" meant what we today would call a "liberal arts education." those were synonymous terms. anyone you've ever heard of who was born before the twentieth century was exclusively educated in the liberal arts tradition.

Last edited by extralife; 06-24-2014 at 06:22 PM..
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Old 06-24-2014, 06:19 PM   #86
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here's a fun fact: for all of western history until the Brits invented the factory-mill style education we currently still use in the mid 19th century--and, indeed, for some time after--the world "education" meant what we today would call a "liberal arts education." those were synonymous terms. anyone you've ever heard of who was born before the twentieth century was exclusively educated in the liberal arts tradition.
Western Education was mainly based on what we now call a "classical education" and here's a quick wiki on what that entials:

The Classical education movement advocates a form of education based in the traditions of Western culture, with a particular focus on education as understood and taught in the Middle Ages and the Classical Age. The curricula and pedagogy of classical education was first developed during the Middle Ages by Martianus Capella, and systematized during the Renaissance by Petrus Ramus. Capella's original goal was to provide a systematic, memorable framework to teach all human knowledge. The term "classical education" has been used in Western culture for several centuries, with each era modifying the definition and adding its own selection of topics. By the end of the 18th century, in addition to the trivium and quadrivium of the Middle Ages, the definition of a classical education embraced study of literature, poetry, drama, philosophy, history, art, and languages.[1] In the 20th and 21st centuries it is used to refer to a broad-based study of the liberal arts and sciences, as opposed to a practical or pre-professional program.[1] The University of Pennsylvania seal (1894) depicted the trivium as a stack of books providing the foundation for a 'modified' quadrivium of mathematics, natural philosophy (empirical science), astronomy, and theology.

The way I read this is that most people had family trades/businesses that they eventually went into, thus not needing a university/college (secondary education) but later on, especially during the 20th century the "classical education" included math/science but also theology (or studying the Bible).
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Old 06-24-2014, 08:26 PM   #87
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Not one to normally chime in, but as the husband of a teacher (and former attorney), if you are going to label the education system "brutally flawed"
be sure to correlate that with a brutally flawed family structure. Both of which are seriously flawed.

Until you have actual people who are involved in education, who are in the class rooms, helping to create policy and implement programs as opposed to government who base education progress on pretty useless tests, then nothing will change. You want to rebuild the education system, start by rebuilding the family. Sadly, until the family becomes a focus, nothing will change in education.
While I agree in principle for the most part, I think that's a fairly cynical attitude and somewhat of a cop-out on the part of the teaching community. Great teachers, and any great person for that matter, never displace responsibility. I have a had a handful (and gross minority) of teachers who were amazingly instrumental in my life and were so despite facing every roadblock you've outlined.

There will never be a law that keeps people from committing crimes, and there will never be a policy that doesn't alienate.
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Old 06-25-2014, 10:35 PM   #88
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Precisely - that's why strictly basing salaries on student achievement is so fallible. I'm currently working on my dissertation. My topic is test anxiety - that, too, is a factor in student achievement. What's ironic is that education both facilitates test anxiety and is also responsible for providing a remedy for it.

I can appreciate the desire to compare our country to other countries. However, there are so many confounding variables to consider. It's irresponsible from a statistics standpoint to disregard those variables when discussing student achievement.

Take Finland, for example. They are oftentimes regarded as having the #1 education system in the world. Let's examine some of the nuances of their education system:

1) Primarily a homogeneous (not diverse) population
2) Only 8% of students in poverty (as opposed to the 35%+ in the U.S.)
3. All students receive free lunch
4) Education is free through graduate school
5) NO national testing - Finland believes that undermines the education process
6) Teachers are respected on par with other professionals such as dentists, doctors, and lawyers - period
7) Teachers teach a mere 4 hours a day - the other 4 hours are spent planning lessons, collaborating with colleagues, grading, and professional development
8) Students must pass each class (broken down into modules) every six WEEKS in order to move on to the next module
9) Athletics are deemed to interfere with learning so there are no school-affiliated athletic programs

As you can see some of the factors would never be considered here - free lunch, free education through graduate school, etc., because they would require substantially more funds.

Comparing ourselves to other countries is fine, but we rarely dig deeper to examine WHY there are differences. We don't look at root causes, which in some cases would be politically incorrect, but would speak truth nonetheless.

Finland's Secret Sauce: Its Teachers
http://www.learningfirst.org/finland...e-its-teachers

..."Becoming a teacher in Finland is as competitive as getting into an Ivy League school, and Finland offers no other route into the profession. So, there is no Teach for Finland. To teach in Finland requires a five-year master's degree in education. Admission to a teacher preparation program includes a national entrance exam and a personal interview. Only one of every 10 applicants is accepted into a teacher preparation program in Finland; competition to become a primary school teacher is even tougher, with 1,789 applicants for only 120 spots, for example, at the University of Helsinki in 2011-12. Only eight universities offer teacher preparation programs in Finland, which allows the country to ensure consistency from program to program. Contrast that with Minnesota which has about the same population as Finland (5.2 million) but about 30 colleges that offer teacher preparation programs." ...
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Old 06-25-2014, 10:47 PM   #89
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I don't think there's any question that we've fallen behind India, the Philippines and Romania in the quality of our telephone scammers.
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