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Old 06-23-2014, 08:57 AM   #51
txtebow
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Default Look at what our overlords promote to our youth..

look at the culture that is being glorified.... AMERICA is DEAD

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Old 06-23-2014, 09:02 AM   #52
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"The children now love luxury; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are tyrants, not servants of the households. They no longer rise when their elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize over their teachers. I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on the frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words. When I was a boy, we were taught to be discrete and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise and impatient of restraint." ~attributed to Hesiod (8th century B.C.)
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:29 AM   #53
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The one area where the USA excels in is creativity. Also, in 'murica, a few great minds tend to lift all the boats. So, lemme essplain:

Yes, our educational system is in shambles and yes, much of it is because many people, especially in the lower classes, don't give a crap about getting a good education. Now, I know I'll be called racist for saying this, but this is also the case with white trash, that is, these people care more about what they can get from the system rather than what a great education and a great career (should a poor person choose this route) can offer to the rest of society.

On the other hand, this country is absolutely fantastic when it comes to enabling great ideas to work. That is, when two beautiful things come together, like a great idea and a bright, motivated person to initiate the idea and bring it to fruition, then this is where being in the USA is great. There are stories after stories about people like Steve Jobs or Carl Sagan or Barack Obama who have reached the pinnacle of success because they wanted something (Jobs and Apple, Sagan and science, Obama and politics) and they had the motivation, courage, smarts and determination to make it happen. Jobs ended up creating thousands of jobs (lol), Sagan ended up educating millions of young minds and Obama ended up as the president of the USA. This is what I mean by a few individuals raising all the other boats.

So, um, yah... the USA lacks in education and that won't ever change. But even if these East Asian peoples can crunch numbers, rattle off stats and generally be more "educated" than 'muricans, they lack something us dummies have in spades. Creative intellects that can bring great ideas to the masses.

JMHO of course.
It is still the land of opportunity and a place where you can go from normal scrock to riches, and it is unique in the respect.... there is just little debating that fact
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:30 AM   #54
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This is 100% true. I can take every roster I have ever had and show a direct correlation between family life with scores, achievement, and interest in school. No one does anything about it because it means calling out parents and its much easier as a voter to blame teachers and administrators for the problem. Look at places like Fort Collins, where achievement is extremely high, why? Higher income families and more intact families. Its a simple explanation, but the problem requires a drastic change that really isn't at the public education level. Its Society.
Precisely - that's why strictly basing salaries on student achievement is so fallible. I'm currently working on my dissertation. My topic is test anxiety - that, too, is a factor in student achievement. What's ironic is that education both facilitates test anxiety and is also responsible for providing a remedy for it.

I can appreciate the desire to compare our country to other countries. However, there are so many confounding variables to consider. It's irresponsible from a statistics standpoint to disregard those variables when discussing student achievement.

Take Finland, for example. They are oftentimes regarded as having the #1 education system in the world. Let's examine some of the nuances of their education system:

1) Primarily a homogeneous (not diverse) population
2) Only 8% of students in poverty (as opposed to the 35%+ in the U.S.)
3. All students receive free lunch
4) Education is free through graduate school
5) NO national testing - Finland believes that undermines the education process
6) Teachers are respected on par with other professionals such as dentists, doctors, and lawyers - period
7) Teachers teach a mere 4 hours a day - the other 4 hours are spent planning lessons, collaborating with colleagues, grading, and professional development
8) Students must pass each class (broken down into modules) every six WEEKS in order to move on to the next module
9) Athletics are deemed to interfere with learning so there are no school-affiliated athletic programs

As you can see some of the factors would never be considered here - free lunch, free education through graduate school, etc., because they would require substantially more funds.

Comparing ourselves to other countries is fine, but we rarely dig deeper to examine WHY there are differences. We don't look at root causes, which in some cases would be politically incorrect, but would speak truth nonetheless.

Last edited by RMT; 06-23-2014 at 09:35 AM..
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:46 AM   #55
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Precisely - that's why strictly basing salaries on student achievement is so fallible. I'm currently working on my dissertation. My topic is test anxiety - that, too, is a factor in student achievement. What's ironic is that education both facilitates test anxiety and is also responsible for providing a remedy for it.

I can appreciate the desire to compare our country to other countries. However, there are so many confounding variables to consider. It's irresponsible from a statistics standpoint to disregard those variables when discussing student achievement.

Take Finland, for example. They are oftentimes regarded as having the #1 education system in the world. Let's examine some of the nuances of their education system:

1) Primarily a homogeneous (not diverse) population
2) Only 8% of students in poverty (as opposed to the 35%+ in the U.S.)
3. All students receive free lunch
4) Education is free through graduate school
5) NO national testing - Finland believes that undermines the education process
6) Teachers are respected on par with other professionals such as dentists, doctors, and lawyers - period
7) Teachers teach a mere 4 hours a day - the other 4 hours are spent planning lessons, collaborating with colleagues, grading, and professional development
8) Students must pass each class (broken down into modules) every six WEEKS in order to move on to the next module
9) Athletics are deemed to interfere with learning so there are no school-affiliated athletic programs

As you can see some of the factors would never be considered here - free lunch, free education through graduate school, etc., because they would require substantially more funds.

Comparing ourselves to other countries is fine, but we rarely dig deeper to examine WHY there are differences. We don't look at root causes, which in some cases would be politically incorrect, but would speak truth nonetheless.
It would be politically incorrect indeed.
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:58 AM   #56
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OMG I have been found out. Hope I don't lose my job now.

Actually I work for TJ, we know we are entering the slowest traffic month of the year so I am assigned to post topics that will create controversy and drive post counts. Maybe I am an alternate account of TJ, when is the last you have seen us posting at the same time?
Works the same on this end either way.
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Old 06-23-2014, 10:01 AM   #57
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Works the same on this end either way.
I'll see if I can get that guy with the gun to your head making you read this thread to retreat.
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Old 06-23-2014, 10:05 AM   #58
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Who gives a ****- my parents are rich anyway...
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Old 06-23-2014, 11:10 AM   #59
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Well let's see, the quote that started this is fitting as it is written by a science fiction writer. But let me know when many of these advance countries in Asia have a literacy rate to speak of. I am not sure who the OP is hanging around in these "super" intellectual Asian countries, but I would think it is a far cry to say the U.S. is ignorant having a 99% literacy rate. Many Asian countries are far below 90% literacy and comparing the intellectual elite of Japan or any other country from some anecdotal experience to the entire U.S. population is really apples to oranges.

They got a large percentage of folks in India and other Asian countries resorting to thumb print for their identification instead of a hand signature.

And the folks in other countries around the world that are poor, are really damn poor. So I would imagine when they are really poor they are not even in school and thus not included in those test scores.

Last edited by Coldcity76; 06-23-2014 at 11:14 AM..
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Old 06-23-2014, 11:10 AM   #60
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I'll see if I can get that guy with the gun to your head making you read this thread to retreat.
Can you have him make me a sammich first?
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Old 06-23-2014, 12:17 PM   #61
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It's all obama's fault. The damn commie. Meck told you so! Hasn't rained in months. Crops are going to hell. I might just give the cat to the neighbors. He's been killing mice in their barn for a week now. If the three amigos weren't such little twerps we could have won a superbowl with Dan Reeves. Did I tell you all the story when I got drunk with him in 85? **** mexico!

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Old 06-23-2014, 05:12 PM   #62
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I'm for more education, but it really isn't about making people smarter. It is about paying for tenured professors and perpetuating liberal dogma. It's also a total money grab. Women's studies, poly-sci and other fluff courses that get students to make posters and put politically-minded hashtags in their twitter feed don't do anything to better the country or their personal contributions to society.

Meanwhile students are getting nickel-and-dimed out of higher tuition, a book scam that forces students to buy new books at several times more than their worth every semester when the content has barely changed, but they manipulate it with things like "end of chapter quizzes" that are different with each iteration and so you cannot buy the used ones and have to get the $80-200 ones. And councilors are funneling students to take out huge amounts of student loan debt for degrees that will afford them no real value to society, and therefore not give them any way of paying that debt with the worthless graphic-design, ancient literature or whatever else bull-crap they were advised. But the university got their money and they graduated he student so they appear to be "doing it right."

I am not against art or the humanities, but I don't believe you should pursue a degree in those courses unless you are going to teach or you are some kind of savant.

Anyway the whole structure is broken and the payoff isn't nearly good enough. If you're going to pay to have someone teach you, make sure it isn't in something you could learn on your own. Sciences, math, medicine, engineering are great things to learn in college.
I agree with most of that. Looky there, see, we have some things we do see similar. Just as you mentioned with the books, forcing students to pay for new ones all the time when they're simply not needed. It's just a way for universities to get more money. Many companies do the same thing. Making things that are meant to only last a certain amount of time when they could easily make it last longer. But it's about the bottom dollar for most of them, rather then the integrity of making good products that last. They would rather make the crap, so that you have to keep buying a new version every so many years. There's example like that everywhere in our corporate world today. There's nothing wrong with growing your company. But when you see the best way in doing that is to cheat people out of money, that's a sad sate of affairs.
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Old 06-23-2014, 06:35 PM   #63
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Amazing how the paid government shill makes a rare appearance on the main board when duty calls.


You are the prototypical example of someone who believes their ignorance is equivalent to actual knowledge. In any and every topic we have ever discussed this has been evident.

There is no whack job theory or woo-tastic alt-med bull**** you won't gobble down like a 5 dollar hooker. You are the dream of every snake oil salesmen and film flam man who has ever existed. Utterly ignorant of how the world works, yet utterly confident that you and others like you have the real knowledge.
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Old 06-23-2014, 06:46 PM   #64
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Do they pay you by the hour or by the word?

Tell me about the broncos. How long have you been a fan? Remember Alzado, what was his number again?

Last edited by baja; 06-23-2014 at 06:49 PM..
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Old 06-23-2014, 06:52 PM   #65
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Do they pay you by the hour or by the word?

Tell me about the broncos. How long have you been a fan? Remember Alzado, what was his number again?
Ahh, cute games and silly attempts to discredit me instead of responding honestly. Not surprised. It must really bother you when someone points out your ignorance and inability to cope with reality eh?
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Old 06-23-2014, 07:02 PM   #66
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Ahh, cute games and silly attempts to discredit me instead of responding honestly. Not surprised. It must really bother you when someone points out your ignorance and inability to cope with reality eh?
You don't bother me at all as I have told in the WPR forum I have zero respect for you and I do believe you are a paid government internet shill and as I do in the WPR forum I will ignore you because you do not fool me.

Last response to you so enjoy it.

Interesting you follow me to the main board which you otherwise never post on.

How may tackles is Gardasher (mis spelling intentional so you can't look it up) credited with?
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Old 06-23-2014, 07:07 PM   #67
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You don't bother me at all as I have told in the WPR forum I have zero respect for you and I do believe you are a paid government internet shill and as I do in the WPR forum I will ignore you because you do not fool me.

Last response to you so enjoy it.

Interesting you follow me to the main board which you otherwise never post on.

How may tackles is Gardasher (mis spelling intentional so you can't look it up) credited with?

You're going to ignore me? NOOOOO! How am I supposed to meet my quota if you ignore me?!?!?!
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Old 06-23-2014, 07:42 PM   #68
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You don't bother me at all as I have told in the WPR forum I have zero respect for you and I do believe you are a paid government internet shill and as I do in the WPR forum I will ignore you because you do not fool me.

Last response to you so enjoy it.

Interesting you follow me to the main board which you otherwise never post on.

How may tackles is Gardasher (mis spelling intentional so you can't look it up) credited with?
My entirely non-professional diagnosis:

Delusional disorder, previously called paranoid disorder, is a type of serious mental illness involving a specific kind of psychosis. Psychosis is the inability to tell what is real from what is imagined. The main feature of delusional disorder is the presence of delusions -- unshakable beliefs in something untrue. People with delusional disorder experience non-bizarre delusions, which involve situations that could occur in real life, such as being followed, poisoned, deceived, conspired against, or loved from a distance. These delusions usually involve the misinterpretation of perceptions or experiences. In reality, however, the situations are either not true at all or highly exaggerated.

People with delusional disorder often can continue to socialize and function normally, apart from the subject of their delusion, and generally do not behave in an obviously odd or bizarre manner. This is unlike people with other psychotic disorders, who also might have delusions as a symptom of their disorder. In some cases, however, people with delusional disorder might become so preoccupied with their delusions that their lives are disrupted.
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Old 06-23-2014, 07:49 PM   #69
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You don't bother me at all as I have told in the WPR forum I have zero respect for you and I do believe you are a paid government internet shill and as I do in the WPR forum I will ignore you because you do not fool me.

Last response to you so enjoy it.

Interesting you follow me to the main board which you otherwise never post on.

How may tackles is Gardasher (mis spelling intentional so you can't look it up) credited with?
Holy **** man! Thanks for the laugh.
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Old 06-23-2014, 07:51 PM   #70
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Serious business.
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Old 06-24-2014, 12:09 PM   #71
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I'm for more education, but it really isn't about making people smarter. It is about paying for tenured professors and perpetuating liberal dogma. It's also a total money grab. Women's studies, poly-sci and other fluff courses that get students to make posters and put politically-minded hashtags in their twitter feed don't do anything to better the country or their personal contributions to society.

Meanwhile students are getting nickel-and-dimed out of higher tuition, a book scam that forces students to buy new books at several times more than their worth every semester when the content has barely changed, but they manipulate it with things like "end of chapter quizzes" that are different with each iteration and so you cannot buy the used ones and have to get the $80-200 ones. And councilors are funneling students to take out huge amounts of student loan debt for degrees that will afford them no real value to society, and therefore not give them any way of paying that debt with the worthless graphic-design, ancient literature or whatever else bull-crap they were advised. But the university got their money and they graduated he student so they appear to be "doing it right."

I am not against art or the humanities, but I don't believe you should pursue a degree in those courses unless you are going to teach or you are some kind of savant.

Anyway the whole structure is broken and the payoff isn't nearly good enough. If you're going to pay to have someone teach you, make sure it isn't in something you could learn on your own. Sciences, math, medicine, engineering are great things to learn in college.
I agree on many points (however please define liberal dogma for me, honest request). I think lesser qualified Americans shouldn't get liberal arts educations, they should be taught trades that are useful in the marketplace. This applies to A LOT more people than you think. The smarties should still be able to pursue degrees in literature, philosophy, etc. because these are the things that create our culture and a shared sense of history and community.

Perhaps because all Americans are taught they're special (THANKS Lego movie), they feel they deserve this liberal arts education... but it goes wasted on many.

I never went to university, this from a guy whose family has been in the Ivy's for three generations. When I was 25 I told myself for some reason I needed to, finally did my SATs and got into my target NYU Tisch (film school)... then it dawned on me that $40-50000 a year was so prohibitively expensive as to only allow for kids whose families are high earners (industries like finance for example, not exactly backgrounds with a broad value system) and force everyone else to be in debt through their 30s, thus reducing their freedom, the risks they can take. This system hurts innovation and culture and it's completely unnecessary. The American culture of money and the individual have damaged something that should be sacred and undeniable.

I passed, moved to Germany where education is free (and split into tiers based on ability). The economy rages on. It's not perfect, but they're getting some of the basics right. America could learn from this and other countries, but American exceptionalism prevents it from doing so. Sad. It's a good country filled with good, hard working people.
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Old 06-24-2014, 12:47 PM   #72
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The real problem is a numbers game.

The top 20% of CHINESE IQs still number more than the entire population of NORTH AMERICA.
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Old 06-24-2014, 01:25 PM   #73
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It is astonishing to me that people here would blame ignorance on university courses rather than, for example the teaching of clearly false science based on the elaborate ghost story known as the bible.
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Old 06-24-2014, 01:36 PM   #74
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It is astonishing to me that people here would blame ignorance on university courses rather than, for example the teaching of clearly false science based on the elaborate ghost story known as the bible.
*grabs popcorn* Oh, you went there.
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Old 06-24-2014, 03:48 PM   #75
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It is astonishing to me that people here would blame ignorance on university courses rather than, for example the teaching of clearly false science based on the elaborate ghost story known as the bible.
There's plenty of ignorance to go around.

Iron age mysticism and Women's Studies are both to blame.
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