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Old 06-22-2014, 09:12 PM   #26
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Because Christians.
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Old 06-22-2014, 09:12 PM   #27
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The one area where the USA excels in is creativity. Also, in 'murica, a few great minds tend to lift all the boats. So, lemme essplain:

Yes, our educational system is in shambles and yes, much of it is because many people, especially in the lower classes, don't give a crap about getting a good education. Now, I know I'll be called racist for saying this, but this is also the case with white trash, that is, these people care more about what they can get from the system rather than what a great education and a great career (should a poor person choose this route) can offer to the rest of society.

On the other hand, this country is absolutely fantastic when it comes to enabling great ideas to work. That is, when two beautiful things come together, like a great idea and a bright, motivated person to initiate the idea and bring it to fruition, then this is where being in the USA is great. There are stories after stories about people like Steve Jobs or Carl Sagan or Barack Obama who have reached the pinnacle of success because they wanted something (Jobs and Apple, Sagan and science, Obama and politics) and they had the motivation, courage, smarts and determination to make it happen. Jobs ended up creating thousands of jobs (lol), Sagan ended up educating millions of young minds and Obama ended up as the president of the USA. This is what I mean by a few individuals rasing all the other boats.

So, um, yah... the USA lacks in education and that won't ever change. But even if these East Asian peoples can crunch numbers, rattle of stats and generally be more "educated" than 'muricans, the lack something us dummies have in spades. Creative intellects that can bring great ideas to the masses.

JMHO of couse.
The lower classes do typically care less about education. There's a relationship between learning and poverty - which we can't discuss as a root cause because it's "politically incorrect" ... but it's true nonetheless.

Just look at the decline in education the United States over the years as our poverty levels have increased. Children perform better when they live in 2 part homes - no ifs, ands, or buts about that. It's simply true. So combine the increase in poverty and increase in family dysfunction and there's a perfect storm for a decline in student achievement.

It's unreasonable to expect and even demand educators to make up for factors which have been shown to significantly impact student learning.
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Old 06-22-2014, 09:13 PM   #28
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Can't do that Cosmo, need all the citizens trained to not think for themselves they make better corporate soldiers that way.

Currently school is about dumbing down the students you know I am right just look at what they force to to teach. I mean no slight toward you sir.
Its not the content that is so bad, its the fact that anywhere from 10-50% of every non achieving school in the state does nothing to rid themselves of the trouble makers or the dumb. They literally keep the class at such a low level that they never excel to where some could be. Class sizes are too high to expect the average teacher to differentiate.

Lets be honest though, the other countries avoid all of this. They don't education the special ed, they kick out behavior problems and require parents to tutor their kids if they fall behind or they also get kicked out of school. School here is literally babysitting.
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Old 06-22-2014, 09:17 PM   #29
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The lower classes do typically care less about education. There's a relationship between learning and poverty - which we can't discuss as a root cause because it's "politically incorrect" ... but it's true nonetheless.

Just look at the decline in education the United States over the years as our poverty levels have increased. Children perform better when they live in 2 part homes - no ifs, ands, or buts about that. It's simply true. So combine the increase in poverty and increase in family dysfunction and there's a perfect storm for a decline in student achievement.

It's unreasonable to expect and even demand educators to make up for factors which have been shown to significantly impact student learning.
This is 100% true. I can take every roster I have ever had and show a direct correlation between family life with scores, achievement, and interest in school. No one does anything about it because it means calling out parents and its much easier as a voter to blame teachers and administrators for the problem. Look at places like Fort Collins, where achievement is extremely high, why? Higher income families and more intact families. Its a simple explanation, but the problem requires a drastic change that really isn't at the public education level. Its Society.
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Old 06-22-2014, 09:19 PM   #30
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Its not the content that is so bad, its the fact that anywhere from 10-50% of every non achieving school in the state does nothing to rid themselves of the trouble makers or the dumb. They literally keep the class at such a low level that they never excel to where some could be. Class sizes are too high to expect the average teacher to differentiate.

Lets be honest though, the other countries avoid all of this. They don't education the special ed, they kick out behavior problems and require parents to tutor their kids if they fall behind or they also get kicked out of school. School here is literally babysitting.
Yep. Only in America do the politicians insist on lowering the standards to cater to those who really don't give a crap. However, it's ultimately the parents who are to blame. If the government ever recognized this fact then I think it would do things that would encourage married couples to stay together, and encourage people to get married and then have kids. Two parent homes where there is a mother and father are absolutely the best way to go when trying to create a stable and good educational system.
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Old 06-22-2014, 09:19 PM   #31
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Seriously, as much as you hate America you should have nothing to do with it.
Sadly, this is the state of mind most americans have. If someone speaks up with a problem, then they must be anti-american. Some sort of terrorist!

He sounds like he is a patriot who loves his country, just does not like how its being run. Can u blame him?
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Old 06-22-2014, 09:30 PM   #32
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I will say this there is much better discussion about the subject matter on this thread than the would have been just a few years ago and that is encouraging.

A few years ago a thread like this would be 80% baja is a coward traitor who hate America now there are only 3 or 4 posts shooting the messenger so as to ovoid looking with a critical eye at the issue. I think we as a nation are beginning to wake up and when enough of us do we will take our country back from the crooked global elitists
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Old 06-22-2014, 09:36 PM   #33
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I will say this there is much better discussion about the subject matter on this thread than the would have been just a few years ago and that is encouraging.

A few years ago a thread like this would be 80% baja is a coward traitor who hate America now there are only 3 or 4 posts shooting the messenger so as to ovoid looking with a critical eye at the issue. I think we as a nation are beginning to wake up and when enough of us do we will take our country back from the crooked global elitists
what's all this we stuff, you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Old 06-22-2014, 09:45 PM   #34
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what's all this we stuff, you got a mouse in your pocket?
You do know Americans are allowed to live outside the country don't you?

Benjamin Franklin spent several years living in France did he forfeit his right to care about what happens in America.

Maybe you could explain to me how that works?
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Old 06-22-2014, 09:49 PM   #35
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You do know Americans are allowed to live outside the country don't you?

Benjamin Franklin spent several years living in France did he forfeit his right to care about what happens in America.

Maybe you could explain to me how that works?
it was a joke...
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Old 06-22-2014, 09:50 PM   #36
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it was a joke...
Well you know us conspiracy theorists are humorless.
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Old 06-22-2014, 11:03 PM   #37
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I have been living in China for the past 7 years and I can tell you that the education system here is not as great as some would like you to believe. I work in an engineering company and I can tell you we struggle to find "adequate" resources. Sure they graduate a lot of engineers but the percentage of those that can compete on a global level is low. If I were to take my company as example I think the number would be around 30%.

The education system here relies on rouge memorization for testing. Sure test scores look great but many people struggle to apply their knowledge to real world situations. They also lack ability to communicate, coordinate, and lead effectively. There is almost no outside the box thinking and very little innovation.

Sure the US can't afford to put its head in the sand and not improve education but they are not at risk of being surpassed anytime soon. Any of my colleagues who have enough resources will send their children (often as early as middle school) to the US for education. Either that or they put them in a private international school.

Also the top 5 listed in the article are quite small in population (outside of Japan). Singapore only has 5 million people and a per capita GDP higher than that in the USA. It would be interesting to take students from a similar per capita GDP background in the USA and see how their scores would match up.
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Old 06-23-2014, 12:33 AM   #38
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I have been traveling to East Asia (and many other parts of the world) for more than 25 years and over that time one of the things that has always struck me is how intelligent the general public in countries like Japan appear to be. It’s not that there aren’t dummies in East Asia, but it always seems that the average level of education and ability to think about the world intelligently and critically is impressively widespread. I’ve often thought about why this is the case and also why the same seems more difficult to say about the U.S. The answer, I think, can be found in a comment science fiction writer Isaac Asimov made about the U.S. while being interviewed in the 1980s: “There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”

Asimov is right on the mark, and this cult of ignorance is the most serious national security issue facing the U.S. today. It is more important than the external threats from terrorists or the rise of a politically and economically powerful China. And a major part of the reason it is such an major issue for Americans to fix is that our immediate competitors, particularly those in Asia, have managed to create a culture in which rather than a cult of ignorance, a cult of intelligence plays a major role in shaping attitudes about the world and, thus, policies about dealing with other countries.

Many Americans are aware that the U.S. does not score well on measures such as international student assessment tests when compared to other industrial countries. For example, the 2011 Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study (TMISS) the top five countries for math were Singapore, South Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Japan—the U.S. is not in the top ten. It is better by 8th grade, where the same counties are in the top five (although the order changes) and the U.S. makes number 9. Roughly the same pattern can bee seen for science results. This doesn’t seem too bad, but in a different testing organization’s measure, the Programme for International Student Assessment, the U.S. does not fare quite so well, scoring 36th for math, 28th for science, and 24th for reading. With the exception of science, where Finland is ranked 5th, all of the top five countries in this measure are from East Asia.

http://thediplomat.com/2014/06/asias...-intelligence/
20 states in the U.S. are basically Anti-science.
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Old 06-23-2014, 03:22 AM   #39
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As an educator I can simplify it pretty easily.

We educate all, most countries do not. We water down our educated by continually pooling those that want it with those that do not.

Solution: You screw around in school, you get kicked out and work. Makes parents more vested in their children. Removes the need for standardized testing. Fixes a load of problems. Expulsion just doesn't happen and it doesn't remove them from education, just that school.
The education system is brutally flawed. Crappy teachers are protected to almost absurd levels which drags down the mean, and makes the jobs of great educators far more difficult. It gets worse at the college level where many professors have little interest in actually teaching, but need to in order to get their grants funded. It really is a joke.
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Old 06-23-2014, 03:26 AM   #40
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20 states in the U.S. are basically Anti-science.
I immediately thought of the environmental debate when I read the thread title. I honestly can't get my head around why people want to turn a blind eye (or worse outright deny) that we are destroying the environment that sustains us.
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Old 06-23-2014, 06:58 AM   #41
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Jerry Bracey wrote a book, Reading Educational Research: How to Avoid Getting Statistically Snookered (2006), and published an annual report on the condition of public education until his death in 2009. He does a great job challenging the political speak, which is what I read in the OP. Sure, there are many area to improve but statistics can really paint the picture of education anyway you want it. The US doesn't score at the top when comparing the TIMMS and NAEP or other tests, which Bracey notes , but "if one examines the number of highest-scoring students in science, the United States has 25 percent of all high-scoring students in the world (at least in 'the world' as defined by the 58 nations taking part in the assessment. . .) Among nations with high average scores, Japan accounted for 13 percent of the highest scorers, Korea 5 percent, Taipei 3 percent, Finland 1 percent and Hong Kong 1 percent." China and India refuse to participate in these tests. In addition, they don't work to educate everyone like the US does. Other stuff thrown out is how many engineers they produce, but they have 3-4 times the number of people we have. Leading to a major statistical paradox , Simpson’s Paradox. In essence, this paradox describes a situation in which differing sample sizes between two samples can cause one to conclude that one condition is preferable to another in aggregate even when it is worse under both samples. Bracey took it upon himself to educate readers of educational research about the risks of this paradox. He held that many statistics based research in the field of education made use of this paradox resulting in misinformation.

I am sure he would respond to Baja like he does to New York Times columnist David Brooks in his 2009 report. Brooks made the mistake in his May 7, 2009, column, resting his argument for the superiority of tough-love, no-excuses inner-city schools on data for one year, one grade and one subject at the Harlem Promise Academy, and failing to give enough credit to the unusual medical and nutritional support that program provides. Last, he would say something like have standards of learning improved over the last 100 years? Yup. In the 19th century, most Americans did not even go to high school. Do our young people know more now? Without any doubt. We are a different country, much more literate, even if we haven't done as much as we hope to do. Are we really slipping or just not progressing at the rate we would hope. More kids are graduating, we have fewer dropouts, more going to college, and test scores are trending up.

The sky is falling.

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Old 06-23-2014, 07:09 AM   #42
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Jerry Bracey wrote a book, Reading Educational Research: How to Avoid Getting Statistically Snookered (2006), and published an annual report on the condition of public education until his death in 2009. He does a great job challenging the political speak, which is what I read in the OP. Sure, there are many area to improve but statistics can really paint the picture of education anyway you want it. The US doesn't score at the top when comparing the TIMMS and NAEP or other tests, which Bracey notes , but "if one examines the number of highest-scoring students in science, the United States has 25 percent of all high-scoring students in the world (at least in 'the world' as defined by the 58 nations taking part in the assessment. . .) Among nations with high average scores, Japan accounted for 13 percent of the highest scorers, Korea 5 percent, Taipei 3 percent, Finland 1 percent and Hong Kong 1 percent." China and India refuse to participate in these tests. In addition, they don't work to educate everyone like the US does. Other stuff thrown out is how many engineers they produce, but they have 3-4 times the number of people we have. Leading to a major statistical paradox , Simpson’s Paradox. In essence, this paradox describes a situation in which differing sample sizes between two samples can cause one to conclude that one condition is preferable to another in aggregate even when it is worse under both samples. Bracey took it upon himself to educate readers of educational research about the risks of this paradox. He held that many statistics based research in the field of education made use of this paradox resulting in misinformation.

I am sure he would respond to Baja like he does to New York Times columnist David Brooks in his 2009 report. Brooks made the mistake in his May 7, 2009, column, resting his argument for the superiority of tough-love, no-excuses inner-city schools on data for one year, one grade and one subject at the Harlem Promise Academy, and failing to give enough credit to the unusual medical and nutritional support that program provides. Last, he would say something like have standards of learning improved over the last 100 years? Yup. In the 19th century, most Americans did not even go to high school. Do our young people know more now than they did then? Without any doubt. We are a different country, much more literate, even if we haven't done as much as we hope to do. Are we really slipping or just not progressing at the rate we would hope. More kids are graduating, we have fewer dropouts, more going to college, and test scores are trending up.

The sky is falling.
This is because we live in an almost hysterical politicized climate in America. EVERYTHING is fodder for the partisan meat grinder, from health and education, to climate, to race, religion, energy, business... I don't think you can come up with a subject in America that won't immediately get peeled down into left/right opposing camps with the associated engineered outrage. How does education become a left/right issue? Or climate? Of course, if one side denies the substance of the scientific method you're going to run into problems right there.
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Old 06-23-2014, 07:22 AM   #43
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The education system is brutally flawed. Crappy teachers are protected to almost absurd levels which drags down the mean, and makes the jobs of great educators far more difficult. It gets worse at the college level where many professors have little interest in actually teaching, but need to in order to get their grants funded. It really is a joke.
Not one to normally chime in, but as the husband of a teacher (and former attorney), if you are going to label the education system "brutally flawed"
be sure to correlate that with a brutally flawed family structure. Both of which are seriously flawed.

Until you have actual people who are involved in education, who are in the class rooms, helping to create policy and implement programs as opposed to government who base education progress on pretty useless tests, then nothing will change. You want to rebuild the education system, start by rebuilding the family. Sadly, until the family becomes a focus, nothing will change in education.
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Old 06-23-2014, 07:49 AM   #44
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Baja works for Putin! Don't believe his lies!!!!


http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2014/06/04...rite-websites/
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Old 06-23-2014, 07:59 AM   #45
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Baja works for Putin! Don't believe his lies!!!!


http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2014/06/04...rite-websites/
OMG I have been found out. Hope I don't lose my job now.

Actually I work for TJ, we know we are entering the slowest traffic month of the year so I am assigned to post topics that will create controversy and drive post counts. Maybe I am an alternate account of TJ, when is the last you have seen us posting at the same time?

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Old 06-23-2014, 08:08 AM   #46
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Would probably help if higher education focused on education and not classes on white guilt or radical feminism.

Because that matters.

Exactly! Many of the big universities offer some of the stupidest crap classes that you wouldn't see in the countries whose education is considered the top or near the top. The internet has many sites that list colleges and the ridiculous class topics they offer. The universities in this country are for the buck, make people have to take classes that don't help them at all, and make a great racket in books too. Oh, they'll buy back your book for 20 bucks, and resell it for 80. Or decided not going to buy back and getting new books to use, so you're stuck with it and it really is of no future use for you either.
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Old 06-23-2014, 08:11 AM   #47
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Baja works for Putin! Don't believe his lies!!!!


http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2014/06/04...rite-websites/
That explains der Gaffo. I guess he actually is getting paid.
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Old 06-23-2014, 08:15 AM   #48
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The reality is there is no real way to gauge how students are performing, especially when states and the feds keep changing the tests and curriculum. I would prefer there be more options for kids whose future is not with college, but more trade school opportunities. Many of today's kids are not strong academically since many can't even function in a regular classroom, and receive no guidance or reinforcement of the importance of education since their parents sucked at it. They are forced in classrooms they can't do well in and worse, interfere with the education of those that can with their constant interruptions and poor behavior and calls home go on deaf ears. There needs to be more options for those kids that don't function in regular schools or our "scores" will not get any better no matter how many times the tests get changed.
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Old 06-23-2014, 08:21 AM   #49
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The reality is there is no real way to gauge how students are performing, especially when states and the feds keep changing the tests and curriculum. I would prefer there be more options for kids whose future is not with college, but more trade school opportunities. Many of today's kids are not strong academically since many can't even function in a regular classroom, and receive no guidance or reinforcement of the importance of education since their parents sucked at it. They are forced in classrooms they can't do well in and worse, interfere with the education of those that can with their constant interruptions and poor behavior and calls home go on deaf ears. There needs to be more options for those kids that don't function in regular schools or our "scores" will not get any better no matter how many times the tests get changed.
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Old 06-23-2014, 08:46 AM   #50
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You do know Americans are allowed to live outside the country don't you?

Benjamin Franklin spent several years living in France did he forfeit his right to care about what happens in America.

Maybe you could explain to me how that works?
Okay, back it up. Franklin was working for the US government overseas as her diplomat to France our primary ally during arguably our most important war in our history. You are sitting on a beach telling everyone how the country you don't live in sucks.

My favorite was some BS article you posted about how a Russian man who was married to a wife he clearly had contempt for from the way it was worded, explained how stupid his wife was and how entire cities are shutting down and food was running out everywhere. If you'd never been in America you'd think it was Escape from New York over here.

I have no problem with expats. And I don't have a problem with people who are critical of our country. But if you're going to start comparing yourself to Benjamin Franklin I'm calling you out.
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