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Old 06-14-2014, 08:18 AM   #276
ant1999e
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I guess the Americans in Benghazi made too much.
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Old 06-14-2014, 09:35 AM   #277
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I guess our level of concern for fellow Americans in harms way depends on how much money they make.
No.

They could have joined the military and had that safety net just in case the **** hit the fan. And made 60k a year.

Or

They could have made 160k in 6 months by going as a civilian contractor with a company like blackwater. But, if you go this route you are taking a huge risk by going into literally a war zone. I do not think the military should have to risk their lives going after these risk takers who were trying to make a quick buck. They signed the contract knowing full well that if they got into a life and death situation, there will be no, i repeat no military backup. If you want the military backup, you should have joined the military. They are on their own. They are literally risking their lives in exchange for a small fortune. Let them risk it.

If you do some research you can see that something like this happened before. There were 4 blackwater contractors who were caught in a sticky situation in iraq a number of years ago. No one came to their aid and all 4 of them were brutally killed. Its why they get paid so much money.
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Old 06-14-2014, 09:58 AM   #278
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^ ^ ^

My friend scary larry was hiring project managers for bechtel back in 2003. He offered me a contract to go to Iraq for the 'cleanup' in January (leaving in May) of that year. It paid $80 per hour, tax free. Guaranteed 70 hours per week. So $5,600 per week in '03 tax free dollars. Lots of money.

Last edited by bombay; 06-15-2014 at 06:31 AM..
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Old 06-14-2014, 10:01 AM   #279
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Obama has completely screwed up the middle east. Can't show weakness in the middle east or this is what you get.

Also it's open season in Afghanistan now. The two young men who live next door that are Army Rangers want to puke anytime Obama is mentioned. He's the worst commander in chief the country has ever had. He just has no feel for international politics or how to command men.
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Old 06-14-2014, 10:07 AM   #280
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It's not the US military's job to play bodyguard. These contractors all knew the risks and are milking enough of our tax money lining their pockets to hire a private security force.
I notice you never responded after I showed you the letter that Obama ignored about the VA. I guess to not puke you voted for the guy that is a good idea.
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Old 06-14-2014, 10:10 AM   #281
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Obama, the ME expert, claimed Iraq would be fine and didn't believe there was a threat to terrorists taking over Iraq once our troops left. His admin. was warned months ago of what was about to happen, but didn't believe it and probably still doesn't. He's probably just like other liberals, if it isn't in liberal websites, it didn't happen.
He knew all along it would fall into chaos. Just like he knew the VA was a mess the whole time. He just knows that media will let him blame everything on Bush so he doesn't care.

When he failed to achieve an occupying force agreement with Iraq it was all over. Major fail just like I said on this very board when it happened.

Obama went on an apology tour then watched the whole region descend into chaos.
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Old 06-14-2014, 10:41 AM   #282
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Obama has completely screwed up the middle east. Can't show weakness in the middle east or this is what you get.

Also it's open season in Afghanistan now. The two young men who live next door that are Army Rangers want to puke anytime Obama is mentioned. He's the worst commander in chief the country has ever had. He just has no feel for international politics or how to command men.
You don't think the Iraq debacle contributed??

Opening that Pandora's box has been an unmitigated disaster for the US and middle east.

What is your solution to the Arab problem??
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Old 06-14-2014, 10:43 AM   #283
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Number one on my list would be the guy who released the ISIS leader from jail, then sold him the weapons, then refused to support Iraq when they requested it.
Like Christopher Hitchins used to say, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
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Old 06-14-2014, 10:44 AM   #284
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Is it at all interesting that the Kurds took Kirkuk today without breaking a sweat?
If one good thing could come out of this bull**** it would be the Kurds getting their own state. Of course, if that happens, Turkey will probably invade.
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Old 06-14-2014, 10:44 AM   #285
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Haven't read all the posts but I am wondering what the best alternative solutions are to Obama's feckless foreign policy

1) He should have armed the moderate rebels in Syria - maybe, or maybe all those arms would be squarely in the hands of Islamists just like many of the arms that we deployed for the Iraqi govt in Sunni Iraq. Honestly I tend to think the latter is more likely and more in keeping with the usual fate of arms that we send to such conflicts

2) Should never have left Iraq, i.e. boots on the ground. Granted boots on the ground would have stopped the ISIS advance at the costs of more American lives and American money. When superior armed and equipped Iraqi forces strip off their uniforms turn tail and run abandoning their arms to the advancing rebels it would have required American forces to pick up the fight.

3) Libya - boots on the ground again? I get the Benghazi debate sort of but I am still not sure what the great foreign policy strategy would have been that would have worked so well in Libya. A few air strikes aside the US was barely involved.

4) Egypt - . The military, i.e. our old ally, is firmly back in command.

5) Russia - . Again no military options. Are we suggesting that Obama is too feckless to get Europeans to can their own interests and seriously sanction Russia at the risk of torpedoing their own fragile economy over Ukraine and that Mitt Romney or John Mccain could have gotten them to go along with this plan?

Obama is no foreign policy mastermind but until I hear the foreign policies that would likely have worked in the above situations I will continue to consider them no win situations.
This post is not too shabby. Will be interesting if any of the Obama hater brigade tries to counter. I'm betting against it.
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Old 06-14-2014, 11:10 AM   #286
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I pretty well agree 100%. Obama is terrible at his job, but this stuff is mostly Bush's legacy. The entire situation was no-win from the outset. We just sent people over to bleed without any real plan for victory. Whoever had to end it was going to look bad.

Obama tried to look strong while retreating, and ultimately ended up looking dopey. He should have torn a page out of the Ron Paul book and just been honest from the outset and said "this will never work, we just went in, we just come out." Instead, he tried to play it like he was accomplishing great things, and so he just looks weak as the pot boils over.

In the end, we're getting the Ron Paul foreign policy, just without the honesty.
It really would have been better. Obama chose the Peace with Honor approach of Nixon, and we're going to see pretty much the same results.
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Old 06-14-2014, 11:17 AM   #287
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"We wuz successful in Iraq and we don't need to be there and sheeeeut."
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Old 06-14-2014, 11:19 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by kappys View Post
Haven't read all the posts but I am wondering what the best alternative solutions are to Obama's feckless foreign policy

1) He should have armed the moderate rebels in Syria - maybe, or maybe all those arms would be squarely in the hands of Islamists just like many of the arms that we deployed for the Iraqi govt in Sunni Iraq. Honestly I tend to think the latter is more likely and more in keeping with the usual fate of arms that we send to such conflicts

2) Should never have left Iraq, i.e. boots on the ground. Granted boots on the ground would have stopped the ISIS advance at the costs of more American lives and American money. When superior armed and equipped Iraqi forces strip off their uniforms turn tail and run abandoning their arms to the advancing rebels it would have required American forces to pick up the fight.

3) Libya - boots on the ground again? I get the Benghazi debate sort of but I am still not sure what the great foreign policy strategy would have been that would have worked so well in Libya. A few air strikes aside the US was barely involved.

4) Egypt - . The military, i.e. our old ally, is firmly back in command.

5) Russia - . Again no military options. Are we suggesting that Obama is too feckless to get Europeans to can their own interests and seriously sanction Russia at the risk of torpedoing their own fragile economy over Ukraine and that Mitt Romney or John Mccain could have gotten them to go along with this plan?

Obama is no foreign policy mastermind but until I hear the foreign policies that would likely have worked in the above situations I will continue to consider them no win situations.
Except just toppling those governments at all was a rallying cry against Bush. "War for oil," "War for Israel."

Why did we topple Libya? Why did we ally with a neo-Nazi political party to topple Ukraine, and why are we allying with Islamists including al Qaeda to topple Syria?

That why is bipartisan globalist policy which is pure evil.
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Old 06-14-2014, 11:29 AM   #289
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That why is bipartisan globalist policy which is pure evil.
The Socialist Progressives are pure evil. The world has been down this path before with Hitler and Stalin, and many more tyrants prior to that. Instead of outright murdering people, the Socialist Progressives make debt slaves of everyone, while attempting to control the entire world's finances. Make no mistake about it.
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Old 06-14-2014, 11:47 AM   #290
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Except just toppling those governments at all was a rallying cry against Bush. "War for oil," "War for Israel."

Why did we topple Libya? Why did we ally with a neo-Nazi political party to topple Ukraine, and why are we allying with Islamists including al Qaeda to topple Syria?

That why is bipartisan globalist policy which is pure evil.
"Pure evil."
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Old 06-14-2014, 11:48 AM   #291
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The Socialist Progressives are pure evil. The world has been down this path before with Hitler and Stalin, and many more tyrants prior to that. Instead of outright murdering people, the Socialist Progressives make debt slaves of everyone, while attempting to control the entire world's finances. Make no mistake about it.
Yeah. Social Security and Medicare will send us down the Stalinist path.
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Old 06-14-2014, 12:16 PM   #292
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Yeah. Social Security and Medicare will send us down the Stalinist path.
You laugh while the world burns. This is the most corrupt administration in US history and they are hell bent on one thing. Complete government control.

Anybody who continues to support any of this administrations policies is sick.
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Old 06-14-2014, 02:27 PM   #293
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Like Christopher Hitchins used to say, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
Sorry, it was Carl Sagan.
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Old 06-14-2014, 04:28 PM   #294
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If one good thing could come out of this bull**** it would be the Kurds getting their own state. Of course, if that happens, Turkey will probably invade.
Give a little land to Turkey from Iraq. Little of it solved. Turkey will need a buffer zone from what Iraq might become. Like we did with Germany and Japan, might be best to be friends and an ally. I know easier said as a Westerner but just throwing it out there.
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Old 06-14-2014, 05:33 PM   #295
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You don't think the Iraq debacle contributed??

Opening that Pandora's box has been an unmitigated disaster for the US and middle east.

What is your solution to the Arab problem??
Iraq isn't the problem at all. Syria been much more destabilizing. I think even Egypt was worst for the region then Iraq. Obama should not have just let Mubarak fall and have the country go into elections they weren't ready for.

Then we had to do the worst then the USA can ever do. Support a ****ing coup that overthrows an elected leader. It makes our plea of fair elections and democracy a joke.

You can crush dictators, use the military to overthrow a regime you don't like, but stepping on elections like that is problematic for every President after. Everyone in the world knows we are heavy handed, that we will use our military when our President feels we have to . But calling for elections they not liking the results makes us look bad.

You can't show weakness to Islamic countries. It just won't work. You have to tell them str8 out Israel is our main ally in the region, we support them always being a Jewish state. That means stop with the stupid things like refugee return to Israel and giving up Jerusalem.

If the President showed Israel we are in step with them by not letting Iran punk us over building a bomb then maybe that President would have some pull in not expanding the settlements. Right now Israel is a thorn to Obama in that regard because they feel he is weak vs the Arab countries.

But to say there is a solution that fixes that ****ed up region is folly for either party. All we can do is support Israel, support fair elections, support and enforce non proliferation, and when the President says he is going to do something that he does it. No apologies.

Obama talked up a big stick in Syria then went whimp on us. If you are going to be a p***Y then don't say much at all. Letting Putin punk you only makes the Russians stronger in the region and the USA less so.
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Old 06-14-2014, 05:35 PM   #296
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@ caring about the Kurds. No you go in and kick ass in Iraq and restore order.
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Old 06-14-2014, 05:37 PM   #297
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Liberals are such pussies. They stay in power much longer and we are screwed. If we were smart we would vote in liberals in local politics, conservatives in national. I always vote for liberals in my city because they care about quality of life and are more into the arts which I love to support.
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Old 06-14-2014, 05:54 PM   #298
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Liberals are such pussies. They stay in power much longer and we are screwed. If we were smart we would vote in liberals in local politics, conservatives in national. I always vote for liberals in my city because they care about quality of life and are more into the arts which I love to support.
Cut is still locked into the liberal-conservative paradigm.

We are way beyond that.

Obama was the CIA-picked successor to Bush. He was sold to the country like a product -- with the blessing of Madison Avenue and Wall Street.

It gets worse and worse. We are screwed. Just wait.

MHG
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Old 06-14-2014, 06:37 PM   #299
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No.

They could have joined the military and had that safety net just in case the **** hit the fan. And made 60k a year.

Or

They could have made 160k in 6 months by going as a civilian contractor with a company like blackwater. But, if you go this route you are taking a huge risk by going into literally a war zone. I do not think the military should have to risk their lives going after these risk takers who were trying to make a quick buck. They signed the contract knowing full well that if they got into a life and death situation, there will be no, i repeat no military backup. If you want the military backup, you should have joined the military. They are on their own. They are literally risking their lives in exchange for a small fortune. Let them risk it.

If you do some research you can see that something like this happened before. There were 4 blackwater contractors who were caught in a sticky situation in iraq a number of years ago. No one came to their aid and all 4 of them were brutally killed. Its why they get paid so much money.
They are getting paid more because they are going to a country where they can be in harms way. Regardless if they are CIA or DOD, helping to train the very Iraqi forces that abandon them, or help in preparation for a transition.. fact remains, they are Amercians, and we don't leave Americans behind.

They also didn't sign on to fight an entire army alone. And may I remind you again they are Americans. What they make has no bearing on the situation. If it were 200 reporters, would u be prepared to rally to support, because they make less? What about truckers, electricians, engineers, and other non trained combatants if they were in the same situation earning the same dollar, do we leave them too because they knew the risk, or do we help them because they are non combatants?

You sound like you are making your opinion based on $. Count your blessings you don't have family there in that situation. And a dick head like you says oh well they knew what could happen.
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Old 06-14-2014, 06:40 PM   #300
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"We wuz successful in Iraq and we don't need to be there and sheeeeut."
Bush accomplished that mission five years before Obama's election.
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