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Old 05-29-2014, 01:33 PM   #151
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How about the guy making $11 an hour now? He will want a $4 raise at least. That guy at the same company making $14 an hour? Why of course he is going to want at least $3-$4 raise now. It isn't just the minimum wage earners, it is the whole pay scale. I have a job at my company that pays between $13-$15 an hour. If the minimum wage goes up past $10, you damn right I am going to be charging more to the customers. Everyone will be paying more in these areas for most or close to all goods, including liberals.
Stuff like this the liberals around here do not get. They think people owning business do not have a right to make money. They are to run a business purely for the benefit of others, but profits should be limited. Obviously if you raise the wages of some, then what about everybody else? Who decides how much and what is fair? The government? Yeah, that's a good one. Everybody's wages go up, so do costs and prices. Liberals view the world as it should be, not as it really is. That is how Obama's foreign policy is as well. But they don't get it, especially if they never own a business.
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Old 05-29-2014, 01:37 PM   #152
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Raising the minimum wage creates at least two artificial market forces driving up consumer prices. Rising labor costs is just one. When more consumers have more money chasing the same goods then prices rise. Higher incomes create higher costs of living in general.
... and also increases demand, which also increases the number of jobs.

You can't have a sustainable economy without people actually having money
to spend on goods and services.

Higher minimum wage = higher standard of living = higher demand = more jobs.
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Old 05-29-2014, 01:48 PM   #153
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... and also increases demand, which also increases the number of jobs.

You can't have a sustainable economy without people actually having money
to spend on goods and services.

Higher minimum wage = higher standard of living = higher demand = more jobs.
So inflation has no bearing on your scenario. It is all good then! We should raise it up every two years! What could possibly go wrong with your scenario?
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Old 05-29-2014, 01:52 PM   #154
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Good grief. Most of these things have been issues for many, many years, through many different presidential administrations both GOP and Dem. And they will continue to be issues for many more. Who seriously expected them to get "fixed" by Obama? Is it the fact that he didn't fulfill his promises that has your panties in such a bunch? As if every POTUS before him didn't do the same thing?
Just say it Tony.

"I'm Sorry, George, for blaming you for the whole Katrina thing. I understand now that federal bureaucracies are inefficient, unwieldy, and don't just fix themselves with a few years' worth of speechifying and good intentions"
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Old 05-29-2014, 01:54 PM   #155
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So inflation has no bearing on your scenario. It is all good then! We should raise it up every two years! What could possibly go wrong with your scenario?
Seen vs Unseen. In progressive economics, the Seen is the only thing you need to worry about because that's what drives people to polls.
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Old 05-29-2014, 02:00 PM   #156
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...I understand now that federal bureaucracies are inefficient, unwieldy, and don't just fix themselves with a few years' worth of speechifying and good intentions...
lol exactly! See, it's not that hard! You should show this level of understanding more often instead of quoting barryr and agreeing with him.
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Old 05-29-2014, 02:12 PM   #157
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... and also increases demand, which also increases the number of jobs.

You can't have a sustainable economy without people actually having money
to spend on goods and services.

Higher minimum wage = higher standard of living = higher demand = more jobs.
We'll always have a higher standard of living as we progress regardless of minimum wage, or if America even exists. Even during the dark ages, the average person was more advanced than the during the Roman Empire. People lived longer. Today, our poor have a higher standard of living than the upper class during Jonathan Swift's days. People in "poverty" usually have cell phones, computers, TVs, DVRS, AC, washers, dryers and microwaves. A hundred years from now, the wealth gap will be greater, but the poor will be living better than we are today. It's all relative.
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Old 05-29-2014, 02:36 PM   #158
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lol exactly! See, it's not that hard! You should show this level of understanding more often instead of quoting barryr and agreeing with him.
I've said a million times, problem 1 is government is fundamentally broken. From the ethics of its workforce, to the inevitable nature of management-by-political-expediency. Our federal government doesn't work. And it's only getting worse as it grows.

My real issue comes with people who like to sweep that truth under the rug whenever possible in order to sell wholesale expansions of Uncle Sam Railways even as we watch trainwreck after trainwreck pile up.

In the private sector, a person who sweeps catastrophic problems under the rug while seeking further public investment is guilty of criminal fraud. In DC, we call it good politics.
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Old 05-29-2014, 02:45 PM   #159
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So inflation has no bearing on your scenario. It is all good then! We should raise it up every two years! What could possibly go wrong with your scenario?
The finest in black and white thinking is what you are engaging in.

There are certainly problems with wages that are too high. There are also problems with wages that are too low. Right now we are experiencing the latter, not the former. The trick is to find a better balance.
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Old 05-29-2014, 02:59 PM   #160
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In the private sector, a person who sweeps catastrophic problems under the rug while seeking further public investment is guilty of criminal fraud.
"Guilty", yes. But how many corporate executives go to jail for it? How many banking execs were prosecuted after the meltdown in 2008?
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Old 05-29-2014, 03:56 PM   #161
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"Guilty", yes. But how many corporate executives go to jail for it? How many banking execs were prosecuted after the meltdown in 2008?
Fair point. Then again, nobody's telling you you should still listen to them when they tell you how to run a corporation. Or if they did, you'd tell them where to go.
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Old 05-29-2014, 04:12 PM   #162
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The finest in black and white thinking is what you are engaging in.

There are certainly problems with wages that are too high. There are also problems with wages that are too low. Right now we are experiencing the latter, not the former. The trick is to find a better balance.
but your previous statement forgot a lot of variables. When minimum wage goes up slowly, it doesn't hit the market as hard. What some of these cities are proposing is to increase minimum wage rapidly and way above federal levels. I get that these cities is considered higher cost of living to begin with compared with a town in Kentucky. First, let us all be honest and stop thinking that most of these jobs should be considered careers. These are jobs that mostly people that are first or second time workforce. These jobs should not be designed for a career as a checker or bagger at a grocery store. It is a good job but one that is already being fazed out to 40 -50% of a store. We have a free education in this country to at least get a diploma in high school. What you do with your life after 18 is mostly on the individual. One issue is parents now babying the **** out of these kids in high school.
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Old 05-29-2014, 04:31 PM   #163
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but your previous statement forgot a lot of variables. When minimum wage goes up slowly, it doesn't hit the market as hard. What some of these cities are proposing is to increase minimum wage rapidly and way above federal levels. I get that these cities is considered higher cost of living to begin with compared with a town in Kentucky. First, let us all be honest and stop thinking that most of these jobs should be considered careers. These are jobs that mostly people that are first or second time workforce. These jobs should not be designed for a career as a checker or bagger at a grocery store. It is a good job but one that is already being fazed out to 40 -50% of a store. We have a free education in this country to at least get a diploma in high school. What you do with your life after 18 is mostly on the individual. One issue is parents now babying the **** out of these kids in high school.
And now we dive off into a plethora of red herrings and non sequiturs. I'm talking about high level economics, not details of any particular plan. Want more jobs? You need more people with more money to generate demand (not just DESIRE, but ABILITY) for goods and services.

If a business can fullfill demand with the positions that have, there is no economic reason whatsoever to create a new position.
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Old 05-29-2014, 05:56 PM   #164
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The minimum wage has lost ground against inflation. Raise it to the point that it is adjusted for the ground lost over the last few decades and to the point that public assistance is not required. Raise it to the point that a single person working full time can afford a roof over his/her head, food on the table (three squares a day at least), and the other basics of getting by (clothes, transportation, etc.). I thought my position was clear.
Can I also get the same percentage raise? That'd be swell.
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Old 05-29-2014, 06:27 PM   #165
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Can I also get the same percentage raise? That'd be swell.
You'll have to talk to your boss about that one.

But I get your point. Some people making more than the MW will also get raises. So what? They too have lost ground. Companies paid more in the past and it didn't lead to mass unemployment or runaway inflation.
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Old 05-29-2014, 07:28 PM   #166
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You'll have to talk to your boss about that one.

But I get your point. Some people making more than the MW will also get raises. So what? They too have lost ground. Companies paid more in the past and it didn't lead to mass unemployment or runaway inflation.
The raise moves all the way up the food chain, followed shortly by the prices.
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Old 05-29-2014, 07:35 PM   #167
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And now we dive off into a plethora of red herrings and non sequiturs. I'm talking about high level economics, not details of any particular plan. Want more jobs? You need more people with more money to generate demand (not just DESIRE, but ABILITY) for goods and services.

If a business can fullfill demand with the positions that have, there is no economic reason whatsoever to create a new position.
Increase money without increasing supply (production) and you have inflation (too much money chasing too few goods)

Get people producing more valuable products (industry) and you will increase their wages... and with it demand for more goods (industry)

Otherwise, it's just more free lunchism.

Pay more wages for doing the same thing = Pay more for the same things = inflation.
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Old 05-30-2014, 01:00 AM   #168
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Liberals don't understand how to let an economy or a market run. They burden markets with regulations, taxes, then manipulate the economy to try and make up for all the burdens of an over-regulated marketplace.
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Old 05-30-2014, 02:14 AM   #169
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Liberals don't understand how to let an economy or a market run. They burden markets with regulations, taxes, then manipulate the economy to try and make up for all the burdens of an over-regulated marketplace.
Funny you say that,we've been doing your way for 30 yrs and the economy has sputtered at best.
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Old 05-30-2014, 10:55 AM   #170
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Here's a graph of US Taxpayer spending on healthcare over the last 100 years:



See that point where healthcare spending gets exponential? That's 1965, the year Medicare/Medicaid was ushered in by the Socialist Progressives. A free market in US healthcare has not existed since then. You can see the enormous inflationary effects that taxpayer spending in the healthcare industry has had.
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Old 05-30-2014, 12:32 PM   #171
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Here's a graph of US Taxpayer spending on healthcare over the last 100 years:



See that point where healthcare spending gets exponential? That's 1965, the year Medicare/Medicaid was ushered in by the Socialist Progressives. A free market in US healthcare has not existed since then. You can see the enormous inflationary effects that taxpayer spending in the healthcare industry has had.
Crazy how these kids can watch the government control 2/3rds of a market and still call it free (when it suits them)
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Old 05-30-2014, 01:12 PM   #172
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Increase money without increasing supply (production) and you have inflation (too much money chasing too few goods)

Get people producing more valuable products (industry) and you will increase their wages... and with it demand for more goods (industry)

Otherwise, it's just more free lunchism.

Pay more wages for doing the same thing = Pay more for the same things = inflation.
Ahh yes, more supply side idiocy. If people can't afford goods, producing more goods or more valuable goods is pointless.
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Old 05-30-2014, 01:57 PM   #173
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Crazy how these kids can watch the government control 2/3rds of a market and still call it free (when it suits them)
There are 3 possibilities:
1. They simply don't understand economics
2. They are brainwashed by the Socialist Progressives, even though none of the Socialist Progressive policies have ever worked in the history of the world.
3. They have vested interests and stand to gain monetarily by their stance.


By far the most evil and sinister of the three is the fact that most of the Socialist Progressive apologists stand to gain monetarily by oppressing other people, and stealing other people's money and lives for their own personal gain. Socialist policies oppress everyone and make conditions much worse. These are the most despicable of people. That's the scary part.

Last edited by pricejj; 05-30-2014 at 02:18 PM..
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Old 05-30-2014, 02:06 PM   #174
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Ahh yes, more supply side idiocy. If people can't afford goods, producing more goods or more valuable goods is pointless.
How many people in China do you figure can afford Iphones or solar arrays?
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Old 05-30-2014, 02:26 PM   #175
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Here's a graph of US Taxpayer spending on healthcare over the last 100 years:



See that point where healthcare spending gets exponential? That's 1965, the year Medicare/Medicaid was ushered in by the Socialist Progressives. A free market in US healthcare has not existed since then. You can see the enormous inflationary effects that taxpayer spending in the healthcare industry has had.
Actually, it's 1970, when Kaiser convinced Nixon to allow HMOs. Nixon knew it was a rip-off from the first meeting with Kaiser, and said so to Halderman. We have it on tape.

That's when the unnecessary, for-profit health insurance industry began to be constructed on the back of America's health. Now we have actuaries making medical decisions. Before that, Blue Cross (among many others) were non-profit.

Last edited by Rohirrim; 05-30-2014 at 02:30 PM..
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