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Old 05-27-2014, 01:54 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Rohirrim View Post
Our markets are as rigged as the average banana republic's. Fine in the long run? Why? Because you clapped your hands together three times, Tinkerbell?
So because we have incestuous corporate-government relationships, we always must?

What happened to YES WE CAN!
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Old 05-27-2014, 02:54 PM   #102
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Fair point. If wiki can be trusted, I defined "living wage" and what you are referring to is called a "family wage".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_wage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_wage
Ok so then IMO Tony we have a lot of situations that are family wage, but the people are saying they don't get a living wage. But then they go on to say 3 kids right?

Certainly we can agree that fast food can't and won't ever pay a family wage? My dad worked two engineering jobs in the 80's to raise his family.

It's a tough situation because I love kids and feel sorry for ones who are poor. I want to help them but at the same time i feel the more bennies for each baby you have is a bad way to run things. Especially in CA where the kid gets the welfare not the parent. It means every kid you are in charge of you get welfare until they are 18.

It would be cool to see them break down what a living wage would be in each city of the country.

Should people who aren't earning a living wage be able to stay in expensive CA forever and get welfare? Or should we maybe force people to go where jobs are, get educated, get better jobs? I would think it would be cheaper to take care of poor people away from CA and NY who have the most welfare money going out overall.
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Old 05-27-2014, 03:24 PM   #103
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Ok so then IMO Tony we have a lot of situations that are family wage, but the people are saying they don't get a living wage. But then they go on to say 3 kids right?

Certainly we can agree that fast food can't and won't ever pay a family wage? My dad worked two engineering jobs in the 80's to raise his family.

It's a tough situation because I love kids and feel sorry for ones who are poor. I want to help them but at the same time i feel the more bennies for each baby you have is a bad way to run things. Especially in CA where the kid gets the welfare not the parent. It means every kid you are in charge of you get welfare until they are 18.

It would be cool to see them break down what a living wage would be in each city of the country.

Should people who aren't earning a living wage be able to stay in expensive CA forever and get welfare? Or should we maybe force people to go where jobs are, get educated, get better jobs? I would think it would be cheaper to take care of poor people away from CA and NY who have the most welfare money going out overall.
This is a really good point. "I want to live in the most expensive region in the country and make a Living Wage!"

Throughout the history of the country, people were expected to move towards the best opportunities (assuming they wanted them) Only recently have local Living Wage and Benefits floors been conceived as some sort of universal birthright.
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Old 05-27-2014, 04:34 PM   #104
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There are millions of people whose labor is already worth less than the minimum wage. Raising the minimum wage would set the bar above hundreds of thousands more people. It's not the best strategy for reversing the labor force participation which is the lowest since the 1970's.
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Old 05-27-2014, 04:44 PM   #105
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Jonathan Swift had it right: We should eat the poor.
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Old 05-27-2014, 05:16 PM   #106
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Jonathan Swift had it right: We should eat the poor.
Why not just feed them to each other? I have money for food.
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Old 05-27-2014, 10:56 PM   #107
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You have got to be the biggest idiot I've ever run across. You take everything posted on here, pretend it means something else, and then argue against that misconception. And then, after you've distracted and manipulated threads into your complete line of bull**** and are proved woefully wrong, you simply pretend that you intended something else. I would actually suspect you of being a misinfo agent, except you're so pathetic at it. Of course, maybe that's a "pro" argument.
your post that beavis responded to should have also included something about more colors in the rainbows and trying to cross DNA for unicorns.
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Old 05-28-2014, 02:15 AM   #108
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There are millions of people whose labor is already worth less than the minimum wage. Raising the minimum wage would set the bar above hundreds of thousands more people. It's not the best strategy for reversing the labor force participation which is the lowest since the 1970's.
There's no job in the U.S. Worth less than minimum wage. There's no job worth less than 10-12 an hour.
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Old 05-28-2014, 05:52 AM   #109
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There's no job in the U.S. Worth less than minimum wage. There's no job worth less than 10-12 an hour.
How much is the unemployed's labor worth?
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Old 05-28-2014, 07:34 AM   #110
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The minimum wage has lost ground against inflation. Raise it to the point that it is adjusted for the ground lost over the last few decades and to the point that public assistance is not required. Raise it to the point that a single person working full time can afford a roof over his/her head, food on the table (three squares a day at least), and the other basics of getting by (clothes, transportation, etc.). I thought my position was clear.
Just curious. Do you believe that every store you shop at, or every restaurant you eat at pays 'living wages' to all their employees?

And I'm not trying to make a hypocrisy argument here. I'm asking mostly for another reason.
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Old 05-28-2014, 12:16 PM   #111
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Just curious. Do you believe that every store you shop at, or every restaurant you eat at pays 'living wages' to all their employees?

And I'm not trying to make a hypocrisy argument here. I'm asking mostly for another reason.
Of course not. OK, I'll bite. Why do you ask?
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Old 05-28-2014, 01:58 PM   #112
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There's no job in the U.S. Worth less than minimum wage. There's no job worth less than 10-12 an hour.
Not in the US labor market because of the laws. They're overseas. These include all the jobs that are unavailable in America that people would be willing to work for less than minimum wage.
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Old 05-28-2014, 02:07 PM   #113
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Of course not. OK, I'll bite. Why do you ask?
Do you have any kind of budget or framework for how much you typically spend buying things or eating out?
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Old 05-28-2014, 03:02 PM   #114
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Do you have any kind of budget or framework for how much you typically spend buying things or eating out?
I do. How about getting to the point?
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Old 05-28-2014, 03:07 PM   #115
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I do. How about getting to the point?
So if the cost of eating at your favorite restaurant went up 20-30%, would you eat there as often?
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Old 05-28-2014, 03:14 PM   #116
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So if the cost of eating at your favorite restaurant went up 20-30%, would you eat there as often?
Ar you pursuing the "$20 Big Mac" argument?
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Old 05-28-2014, 03:22 PM   #117
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Ar you pursuing the "$20 Big Mac" argument?
No, I'm pursing the "If it cost you as much to eat out twice as it used to cost you to eat out 3 times, what would you do?" argument.
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Old 05-28-2014, 03:24 PM   #118
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No, I'm pursing the "If it cost you as much to eat out twice as it used to cost you to eat out 3 times, what would you do?" argument.
Get to your point.
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Old 05-28-2014, 03:28 PM   #119
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Get to your point.
I think I just did.

If eating at your favorite restaurant cost 30% more, would you eat there more or less often?
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Old 05-28-2014, 03:29 PM   #120
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I think I just did.

If eating at your favorite restaurant cost 30% more, would you eat there more or less often?
What's this got to do with raising the minimum wage? It sounds like you're pursuing the "$20 Big Mac" argument.
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Old 05-28-2014, 03:32 PM   #121
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What's this got to do with raising the minimum wage? It sounds like you're pursuing the "$20 Big Mac" argument.
I think 30% is a fairly widely used guideline ratio of labor cost to revenue in the food service industry. And I think a doubling of average wages in that industry is pretty conservative considering your stated standards for a 'living' wage.
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Old 05-28-2014, 03:52 PM   #122
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I think 30% is a fairly widely used guideline ratio of labor cost to revenue in the food service industry. And I think a doubling of average wages in that industry is pretty conservative considering your stated standards for a 'living' wage.
I estimate that $10-$12/hr would be enough to make ends meet in most places around the country. IMO $15/hr is only appropriate for locations with particularly high costs of living, e.g. Seattle, San Francisco, New York, etc.

But to address your point:

Quote:
Opponents also claim that higher wages would mean significantly higher prices and that those cost increases would effectively eat up whatever extra earnings low-wage workers ended up taking home. But a 2011 study conducted by Ken Jacobs and Dave Graham-Squire at the UC-Berkeley Center for Labor Research and Education and Stephanie Luce at CUNY’s Murphy Institute for Worker Education and Labor Studies estimated that raising the minimum wage to $12 per hour – two bucks more than what’s currently on the table – would increase the cost of an average shopping trip to Wal-Mart by just 46 cents – or around $12 per year. And another paper published last September by economists Jeannette Wicks Lim and Robert Pollin estimated that a hike to $10.50 an hour would likely result in the price of a Big Mac increasing by only a dime, from $4.50 to $4.60, on average.

If the minimum wage had kept pace with inflation since its inception in 1968, it would now stand at $10.74 per hour. With the share of our nation’s output going to workers’ wages at an all-time low — and inequality on the rise — it’s easy to understand why the idea of raising it to $10.10 is so popular. And despite opponents’ dire warnings, there’s really no good reason that we shouldn’t do so.
http://billmoyers.com/2014/03/07/all...-fallen-apart/
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Old 05-28-2014, 04:01 PM   #123
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The other element in all of this is that employers, following the Walmart model, no longer give employees more than thirty hours a week.
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Old 05-28-2014, 05:02 PM   #124
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How about producing what we consume? In order to do that, lower the cost of doing business in the US.

Unfortunately, through the last 5 years, the US has embarked on an unprecedented death-spiral course of astronomical inflation, crony capitalism, and outright theft of untold trillions from the American people.

1. A good start would be reducing the US Corporate tax rate from 35%, which is the highest in the world. Every other developed nation in the world has been racing to the bottom in corporate tax rates for the past 20 years. Not the US. This has been well-known for decades. Elected officials have done nothing about it.

2. Drastically cut government spending, which in turn reduces inflation. Inflation has vastly outstripped any wage gains in the past 40 years.

3. Reform the entire tax-code to eliminate loop-holes and remove incentives that directly contribute to inflation.

4. Reform healthcare, welfare, education, housing, and any other industry that has been completely screwed up by government spending of taxpayer dollars.

Once you do all that stuff, and Americans start actually PRODUCING something again in a stable economy, all the hair-brained, civilization-killing Socialist plans get shredded. Until then, it will be nothing but more of the same decline.
Where do you get this tripe? No - really. Where does this information come from?

"astronomical inflation":

while a subjective term, on what planet have we experienced "astronomical inflation"? The annual rate of inflation has been below 5% for every year for the last 30 years, except 1990.

http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/I...Inflation.aspx

1) US corporate tax rate 35%

While technically correct, no corporation actually pays this rate. The US effective corporate tax rate has hovered right around 15% for the last 10 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpora..._United_States

2) Inflation has vastly outstripped any wage gains in the past 40 years.
True. Because there have been only very marginal wage gains. In fact, many sectors have experienced significant cuts in wages over the last 30 years. How did Barry accomplish this one?

3) Reform the entire tax-code to eliminate loop-holes and remove incentives that directly contribute to inflation.

Actually sounds ok - but where's the beef? Can you name even one specific change you would like to see made to the tax code?

4) Reform healthcare, welfare, education, housing, and any other industry that has been completely screwed up by government spending of taxpayer dollars.

OK - so I assume by "reform", you mean "rape" and "privatize". Brilliant!

a stable economy:

Austerity triggers Depression.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blog...esnt-work.html

http://www.mbaskool.com/business-art...ro-crises.html
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Old 05-28-2014, 07:45 PM   #125
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I estimate that $10-$12/hr would be enough to make ends meet in most places around the country. IMO $15/hr is only appropriate for locations with particularly high costs of living, e.g. Seattle, San Francisco, New York, etc.

But to address your point:



http://billmoyers.com/2014/03/07/all...-fallen-apart/
Speaking of overhyped cost increases. How much would it cost you at Wal-Mart if they had a $15 minimum wage?



(tldr: 1.4%)
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