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Old 05-26-2014, 02:15 AM   #76
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How about producing what we consume? In order to do that, lower the cost of doing business in the US.

Unfortunately, through the last 5 years, the US has embarked on an unprecedented death-spiral course of astronomical inflation, crony capitalism, and outright theft of untold trillions from the American people.

1. A good start would be reducing the US Corporate tax rate from 35%, which is the highest in the world. Every other developed nation in the world has been racing to the bottom in corporate tax rates for the past 20 years. Not the US. This has been well-known for decades. Elected officials have done nothing about it.

2. Drastically cut government spending, which in turn reduces inflation. Inflation has vastly outstripped any wage gains in the past 40 years.

3. Reform the entire tax-code to eliminate loop-holes and remove incentives that directly contribute to inflation.

4. Reform healthcare, welfare, education, housing, and any other industry that has been completely screwed up by government spending of taxpayer dollars.

Once you do all that stuff, and Americans start actually PRODUCING something again in a stable economy, all the hair-brained, civilization-killing Socialist plans get shredded. Until then, it will be nothing but more of the same decline.
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Old 05-26-2014, 03:20 AM   #77
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What does living wage mean?
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Old 05-26-2014, 05:47 AM   #78
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Of course if Obama was the real jobs president, then maybe more people would have more jobs to choose from other than service types. I notice Wall Street doing just fine though. Gee, maybe Hillary will make a difference
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Old 05-26-2014, 05:50 AM   #79
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You can start with trade deals that favor doing business overseas over doing business at home. Creating incentives to leave the country is about as stupid, and suicidal an idea as any country of fools could come up with. I'm sure crony capitalism is behind these deals that have cut the throat of labor in America for thirty years (just as they were designed to do). Add in these trade policies to the effects of technology doing away with jobs and you have a perfect storm of labor destruction.

Another thing to do of primary importance is to nationalize health care. Get business out of the business of health care. This is why companies have followed the "Walmart model" and created millions of low paying, part time jobs. They don't have to pay benefits. The state pays to insure their workers. Great cost-shift for them. Disaster for the country. Four of the richest people on Forbes' top ten list are Waltons. Why? Because they are massively subsidized by taxpayers through this back-door bull****.

All of this **** is self-inflicted by crony capitalism. Our bought-out politicians rewrote the tax codes that encouraged and allowed billionaires to hoard wealth offshore, rather than reinvest it. Corporations wrote the tax codes, the deregulation and the trade policies that benefit their CEOs and top shareholders. The fact that these policies have wiped out the American working man and American labor in general is no surprise. That was one of the chief elements of the plan from the beginning. What's the first thing Raygun did in office? He went after a union; the air-traffic controllers. That was the opening gambit.

Steps to take:

Get rid of Citizens United and McCutcheon. Amend the Constitution to publicly control elections. American politicians spend more time raising money than they do working on the country's business. Trying to buy influence should be a federal offense.

Kill NAFTA and all trade deals like it. I guess idiots need to be told that our trade deals should benefit America, not injure it for the benefit of the very few.

Nationalize health care and strengthen Social Security. Get business out of the health care and benefits business.

Restore Glass-Steagle (no explanation necessary).

Restore the progressive tax code to pre-Raygun numbers. (no explanation necessary)

And on the national ethos front:

Kill the libertarian "greed is good" individualist trend and restore the progressive "sharing is strength" ethos that made us the greatest country on Earth without resorting to the ideological dogmatic bull**** like extremists on the Right and Left resort to. Rely on reason, not dogma, like the Founders intended. Science, not religion. Common sense, not ideology.

Of that generation of men to whom we owe so much, the man to whom we owe most is, of course, Lincoln. Part of our debt to him is because he forecast our present struggle and saw the way out. He said: —

“I hold that while man exists it is his duty to improve not only his own condition, but to assist in ameliorating mankind.”

And again: —

“Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.”

If that remark was original with me, I should be even more strongly denounced as a Communist agitator than I shall be anyhow. It is Lincoln’s. I am only quoting it; and that is one side; that is the side the capitalist should hear. Now, let the working man hear his side.

“Capital has its rights, which are as worthy of protection as any other rights. … Nor should this lead to a war upon the owners of property. Property is the fruit of labor; … property is desirable; is a positive good in the world.”

And then comes a thoroughly Lincolnlike sentence: —

“Let not him who is houseless pull down the house of another, but let him work diligently and build one for himself, thus by example assuring that his own shall be safe from violence when built.”

It seems to me that, in these words, Lincoln took substantially the attitude that we ought to take; he showed the proper sense of proportion in his relative estimates of capital and labor, of human rights and property rights. Above all, in this speech, as in many others, he taught a lesson in wise kindliness and charity; an indispensable lesson to us of to-day. But this wise kindliness and charity never weakened his arm or numbed his heart. We cannot afford weakly to blind ourselves to the actual conflict which faces us today. The issue is joined, and we must fight or fail.

In every wise struggle for human betterment one of the main objects, and often the only object, has been to achieve in large measure equality of opportunity. In the struggle for this great end, nations rise from barbarism to civilization, and through it people press forward from one stage of enlightenment to the next. One of the chief factors in progress is the destruction of special privilege. The essence of any struggle for healthy liberty has always been, and must always be, to take from some one man or class of men the right to enjoy power, or wealth, or position, or immunity, which has not been earned by service to his or their fellows. That is what you fought for in the Civil War, and that is what we strive for now.

At many stages in the advance of humanity, this conflict between the men who possess more than they have earned and the men who have earned more than they possess is the central condition of progress. In our day it appears as the struggle of freemen to gain and hold the right of self-government as against the special interests, who twist the methods of free government into machinery for defeating the popular will. At every stage, and under all circumstances, the essence of the struggle is to equalize opportunity, destroy privilege, and give to the life and citizenship of every individual the highest possible value both to himself and to the commonwealth. That is nothing new.
(Teddy Roosevelt)

Proportion and common sense; This is what America has abandoned.

Last edited by Rohirrim; 05-26-2014 at 05:54 AM..
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Old 05-26-2014, 07:48 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Rohirrim View Post
You can start with trade deals that favor doing business overseas over doing business at home. Creating incentives to leave the country is about as stupid, and suicidal an idea as any country of fools could come up with. I'm sure crony capitalism is behind these deals that have cut the throat of labor in America for thirty years (just as they were designed to do). Add in these trade policies to the effects of technology doing away with jobs and you have a perfect storm of labor destruction.

Another thing to do of primary importance is to nationalize health care. Get business out of the business of health care. This is why companies have followed the "Walmart model" and created millions of low paying, part time jobs. They don't have to pay benefits. The state pays to insure their workers. Great cost-shift for them. Disaster for the country. Four of the richest people on Forbes' top ten list are Waltons. Why? Because they are massively subsidized by taxpayers through this back-door bull****.

All of this **** is self-inflicted by crony capitalism. Our bought-out politicians rewrote the tax codes that encouraged and allowed billionaires to hoard wealth offshore, rather than reinvest it. Corporations wrote the tax codes, the deregulation and the trade policies that benefit their CEOs and top shareholders. The fact that these policies have wiped out the American working man and American labor in general is no surprise. That was one of the chief elements of the plan from the beginning. What's the first thing Raygun did in office? He went after a union; the air-traffic controllers. That was the opening gambit.

Steps to take:

Get rid of Citizens United and McCutcheon. Amend the Constitution to publicly control elections. American politicians spend more time raising money than they do working on the country's business. Trying to buy influence should be a federal offense.

Kill NAFTA and all trade deals like it. I guess idiots need to be told that our trade deals should benefit America, not injure it for the benefit of the very few.

Nationalize health care and strengthen Social Security. Get business out of the health care and benefits business.

Restore Glass-Steagle (no explanation necessary).

Restore the progressive tax code to pre-Raygun numbers. (no explanation necessary)

And on the national ethos front:

Kill the libertarian "greed is good" individualist trend and restore the progressive "sharing is strength" ethos that made us the greatest country on Earth without resorting to the ideological dogmatic bull**** like extremists on the Right and Left resort to. Rely on reason, not dogma, like the Founders intended. Science, not religion. Common sense, not ideology.

Of that generation of men to whom we owe so much, the man to whom we owe most is, of course, Lincoln. Part of our debt to him is because he forecast our present struggle and saw the way out. He said: —

“I hold that while man exists it is his duty to improve not only his own condition, but to assist in ameliorating mankind.”

And again: —

“Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.”

If that remark was original with me, I should be even more strongly denounced as a Communist agitator than I shall be anyhow. It is Lincoln’s. I am only quoting it; and that is one side; that is the side the capitalist should hear. Now, let the working man hear his side.

“Capital has its rights, which are as worthy of protection as any other rights. … Nor should this lead to a war upon the owners of property. Property is the fruit of labor; … property is desirable; is a positive good in the world.”

And then comes a thoroughly Lincolnlike sentence: —

“Let not him who is houseless pull down the house of another, but let him work diligently and build one for himself, thus by example assuring that his own shall be safe from violence when built.”

It seems to me that, in these words, Lincoln took substantially the attitude that we ought to take; he showed the proper sense of proportion in his relative estimates of capital and labor, of human rights and property rights. Above all, in this speech, as in many others, he taught a lesson in wise kindliness and charity; an indispensable lesson to us of to-day. But this wise kindliness and charity never weakened his arm or numbed his heart. We cannot afford weakly to blind ourselves to the actual conflict which faces us today. The issue is joined, and we must fight or fail.

In every wise struggle for human betterment one of the main objects, and often the only object, has been to achieve in large measure equality of opportunity. In the struggle for this great end, nations rise from barbarism to civilization, and through it people press forward from one stage of enlightenment to the next. One of the chief factors in progress is the destruction of special privilege. The essence of any struggle for healthy liberty has always been, and must always be, to take from some one man or class of men the right to enjoy power, or wealth, or position, or immunity, which has not been earned by service to his or their fellows. That is what you fought for in the Civil War, and that is what we strive for now.

At many stages in the advance of humanity, this conflict between the men who possess more than they have earned and the men who have earned more than they possess is the central condition of progress. In our day it appears as the struggle of freemen to gain and hold the right of self-government as against the special interests, who twist the methods of free government into machinery for defeating the popular will. At every stage, and under all circumstances, the essence of the struggle is to equalize opportunity, destroy privilege, and give to the life and citizenship of every individual the highest possible value both to himself and to the commonwealth. That is nothing new.
(Teddy Roosevelt)

Proportion and common sense; This is what America has abandoned.
Rep
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Old 05-26-2014, 07:58 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Rohirrim View Post
You can start with trade deals that favor doing business overseas over doing business at home. Creating incentives to leave the country is about as stupid, and suicidal an idea as any country of fools could come up with. I'm sure crony capitalism is behind these deals that have cut the throat of labor in America for thirty years (just as they were designed to do). Add in these trade policies to the effects of technology doing away with jobs and you have a perfect storm of labor destruction.
To be a great economy, we need to be competitive with other free economies. Free trade with free economies should be preserved. It's mostly China that is the problem.

Quote:
Another thing to do of primary importance is to nationalize health care. Get business out of the business of health care. This is why companies have followed the "Walmart model" and created millions of low paying, part time jobs. They don't have to pay benefits.
We need to get employers out of the business of providing health care. "VA Healthcare for all" though is a whole other animal.

Quote:
Get rid of Citizens United and McCutcheon. Amend the Constitution to publicly control elections. American politicians spend more time raising money than they do working on the country's business. Trying to buy influence should be a federal offense.
Brilliant. Take away influence and criminalize those who tried to buy influence. Instead, give 100% control of the electoral (and speech) process to those who happily pimped their influence to the highest bidder.

Quote:
Kill NAFTA and all trade deals like it. I guess idiots need to be told that our trade deals should benefit America, not injure it for the benefit of the very few.
NAFTA is not China. This is where the Meme triumphs over the truth.

Quote:
Nationalize health care and strengthen Social Security. Get business out of the health care and benefits business.
In other words, expand the broken and prop up the insolvent.

Quote:
Restore the progressive tax code to pre-Raygun numbers. (no explanation necessary)
You could suggest to Re-erect the Berlin wall with about as much reasoning.

Quote:
Kill the libertarian "greed is good" individualist trend and restore the progressive "sharing is strength" ethos that made us the greatest country on Earth without resorting to the ideological dogmatic bull**** like extremists on the Right and Left resort to. Rely on reason, not dogma, like the Founders intended. Science, not religion. Common sense, not ideology.
A true student of history here. Judge Libertarians by the worst possible warped outcomes of their ideology, but judge Socialists not on the historic trappings of their ideology, but by their most syrupy-sweet intentions. Strawtastic.

Quote:
“Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.”
That's all fine and good until Politics decides to start determining to one man what another man's labor is worth. If Labor be prior to capital, it must also be prior to Politics. You can't have it both ways. (or you can, but you'll break everything down doing so )
Quote:
“Let not him who is houseless pull down the house of another, but let him work diligently and build one for himself, thus by example assuring that his own shall be safe from violence when built.”
The socialist extension... "Let not him who is houseless not pull down the house of another. Instead allow him to leverage the government to force the housed to also build a house for the unhoused free of charge."

In most possible ways, you've turned Lincoln on his head.

Last edited by BroncoBeavis; 05-26-2014 at 08:00 AM..
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Old 05-26-2014, 10:44 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoBeavis View Post
To be a great economy, we need to be competitive with other free economies. Free trade with free economies should be preserved. It's mostly China that is the problem.



We need to get employers out of the business of providing health care. "VA Healthcare for all" though is a whole other animal.



Brilliant. Take away influence and criminalize those who tried to buy influence. Instead, give 100% control of the electoral (and speech) process to those who happily pimped their influence to the highest bidder.



NAFTA is not China. This is where the Meme triumphs over the truth.



In other words, expand the broken and prop up the insolvent.



You could suggest to Re-erect the Berlin wall with about as much reasoning.



A true student of history here. Judge Libertarians by the worst possible warped outcomes of their ideology, but judge Socialists not on the historic trappings of their ideology, but by their most syrupy-sweet intentions. Strawtastic.



That's all fine and good until Politics decides to start determining to one man what another man's labor is worth. If Labor be prior to capital, it must also be prior to Politics. You can't have it both ways. (or you can, but you'll break everything down doing so )


The socialist extension... "Let not him who is houseless not pull down the house of another. Instead allow him to leverage the government to force the housed to also build a house for the unhoused free of charge."

In most possible ways, you've turned Lincoln on his head.
You have got to be the biggest idiot I've ever run across. You take everything posted on here, pretend it means something else, and then argue against that misconception. And then, after you've distracted and manipulated threads into your complete line of bull**** and are proved woefully wrong, you simply pretend that you intended something else. I would actually suspect you of being a misinfo agent, except you're so pathetic at it. Of course, maybe that's a "pro" argument.
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Old 05-26-2014, 10:44 AM   #83
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Yes....exactly what I said.


Curious....what is your solution?
The minimum wage has lost ground against inflation. Raise it to the point that it is adjusted for the ground lost over the last few decades and to the point that public assistance is not required. Raise it to the point that a single person working full time can afford a roof over his/her head, food on the table (three squares a day at least), and the other basics of getting by (clothes, transportation, etc.). I thought my position was clear.

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Old 05-26-2014, 11:05 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Rohirrim View Post
You have got to be the biggest idiot I've ever run across. You take everything posted on here, pretend it means something else, and then argue against that misconception. And then, after you've distracted and manipulated threads into your complete line of bull**** and are proved woefully wrong, you simply pretend that you intended something else. I would actually suspect you of being a misinfo agent, except you're so pathetic at it. Of course, maybe that's a "pro" argument.
Just like Obama.
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Old 05-26-2014, 11:05 AM   #85
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I consider Teddy Roosevelt to be one of the smartest, if not the smartest president we ever had. He was also one of that office's greatest historical scholars. He wrote a book on naval warfare that is still used at the naval academy.

Why do you think he wrote this?
One of the chief factors in progress is the destruction of special privilege.

Because he was a socialist?
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Old 05-26-2014, 02:21 PM   #86
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BTW, my solution to money in politics? A national initiative ammendment. The initiative/proposition system works well on the State level. We need a system on the national level that allows voters to directly overrule the legislature.
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Old 05-26-2014, 03:08 PM   #87
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Don't like what Walmart pays? Make yourself valuable and do something that will pay you more.
It's really that simple, isn't it?!? (In other words, are you seriously stupid enough to think it's really that simple?)
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Old 05-26-2014, 03:09 PM   #88
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What does living wage mean?
A wage high enough to live on? Feed, clothe, and house oneself? Or was this a trick question?
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Old 05-26-2014, 04:28 PM   #89
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I consider Teddy Roosevelt to be one of the smartest, if not the smartest president we ever had. He was also one of that office's greatest historical scholars. He wrote a book on naval warfare that is still used at the naval academy.

Why do you think he wrote this?
One of the chief factors in progress is the destruction of special privilege.

Because he was a socialist?
He also was a stronger supporter of Eugenics. So, in other words, take away those special privileges from some so the others can have them.
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Old 05-26-2014, 04:54 PM   #90
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He also was a stronger supporter of Eugenics. So, in other words, take away those special privileges from some so the others can have them.
He also killed thousands of animals in Africa, ergo, we can ignore everything he did or said. Gee, that was easy. Different time. Different morals. Now, we get the benefit of running everything, including history, through our political correctness prism in order to assign its proper value. Fortunately, we can now ignore Teddy Roosevelt. Lincoln wanted to send all the Africans back to Africa. Let's write him off too.
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Old 05-26-2014, 06:39 PM   #91
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You have got to be the biggest idiot I've ever run across. You take everything posted on here, pretend it means something else, and then argue against that misconception. And then, after you've distracted and manipulated threads into your complete line of bull**** and are proved woefully wrong, you simply pretend that you intended something else. I would actually suspect you of being a misinfo agent, except you're so pathetic at it. Of course, maybe that's a "pro" argument.
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Kill the libertarian "greed is good" individualist trend and restore the progressive "sharing is strength" ethos


Mirrors are often the hardest things to deal with.
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Old 05-27-2014, 08:35 AM   #92
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A "fun" read somewhat related to this topic...

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The reformist wing of the Republican Party, which has a new book of policy essays out today, is a coterie of right-leaning intellectuals engaged in the Lord’s work of reimagining a non-plutocratic agenda for the party. The eternal problem with the reformists, however, is that they’re all playing an inside game, vying for influence within the party and seeking the ear of its leading figures. The need to maintain the good graces of the powers-that-be causes them to couch their advice with a delicacy that routinely veers into outright fantasy.

Ramesh Ponnuru, one of the contributors to the new volume, provides a case in point. In his Bloomberg View column, Ponnuru argues that Republicans should counter the Democrats’ campaign to lift the minimum wage by proposing instead to increase the Earned Income Tax Credit, which “would give Republicans a way to show that they want to help the poor — and that their stated objections to raising the minimum wage are sincere.”

One problem with this plan to get Republicans to increase the Earned Income Tax Credit is that, as Ezra Klein points out, they’re currently fighting extremely hard to cut the Earned Income Tax Credit. Ponnuru’s column doesn’t mention this highly relevant detail.

What’s more, one of the main reasons the Earned Income Tax Credit exists is to cushion the impact of state taxes, which often force workers on the bottom half of the income spectrum to pay higher rates than the rich. And why are state taxes so regressive? Well, a main reason is that Republicans want it this way. The states that raise the highest proportion of their taxes from the poor are Republican states. The EITC is in large part a way of using the federal tax code to cancel out Republican-led policies of taking money from poor people, so naturally Republicans at the national level oppose it, too.
Read the rest here: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...-the-poor.html
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Old 05-27-2014, 08:40 AM   #93
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Here's a little dose of reality to those who think that taking "handouts" away from the unemployed will propel them to magically find work:

Quote:
There has been no sudden surge of former benefits recipients into jobs. Nor have they abandoned the labor force in droves. Most have done what [Helene] Laurusevage [who lost her unemployment benefits] has done: continued looking for work, but without the lifeline that benefits provided.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...-back-to-work/
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Old 05-27-2014, 09:33 AM   #94
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I haven't heard anything specific about a new war on the EITC, but I've never been a fan of waging that particular war (or on food stamps)

The message needs to be about industry and opportunity first. Pound that message home. Once the economy is robust and opportunities expand, those problems will naturally reduce themselves.

Then at that point if you want to stand on principle, and the really important business is done (a strong industrial economy) you can start dicking around with the small social welfare programs.
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Old 05-27-2014, 09:57 AM   #95
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Once the economy is robust and opportunities expand...
Call me a cynic, but my concern is that this isn't going to happen any time soon. Or ever.
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Old 05-27-2014, 10:04 AM   #96
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A wage high enough to live on? Feed, clothe, and house oneself? Or was this a trick question?
Ok only yourself? Or does living wage mean you should be able to have a wife and kids? and support them on the wage? If so how many kids?
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Old 05-27-2014, 10:22 AM   #97
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Ok only yourself? Or does living wage mean you should be able to have a wife and kids? and support them on the wage? If so how many kids?
Fair point. If wiki can be trusted, I defined "living wage" and what you are referring to is called a "family wage".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_wage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_wage
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Old 05-27-2014, 12:39 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by TonyR View Post
Call me a cynic, but my concern is that this isn't going to happen any time soon. Or ever.
So long as we keep a reasonably free market and ignore most of the advice coming from the Chinese-Central-Authority worshipers, we'll be just fine in the long run.
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Old 05-27-2014, 01:01 PM   #99
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So long as we keep a reasonably free market and ignore most of the advice coming from the Chinese-Central-Authority worshipers, we'll be just fine in the long run.
Our markets are as rigged as the average banana republic's. Fine in the long run? Why? Because you clapped your hands together three times, Tinkerbell?
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Old 05-27-2014, 01:39 PM   #100
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Sounds like they need to motivate their existing employees or attract more competent employees with higher wages.

Why should that worker give a **** about your tomatoes if they're on hour 70 of their 80 hours week (between three jobs) just to make ends meet?
I guess you don't realize that In and Out pays one of the top hourly wages of all fast foods in USA. You won't see illegal aliens working there in mass. College and young adults work at In and Out and unlike Cut, I never have had a problem with getting orders correct. Only issue is sometimes it takes a while to get your food because it is mad packed in their stores.
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