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Old 03-28-2014, 06:34 PM   #151
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1. You didn't answer the question.

2. This is the level of scientific explanation we have all come to expect from you.

Carry on Dr. Science.
I could post articles from hundreds of climate scientists and the posters of a rightist persuasion would just ignore them. That's what I've come to expect from you.
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Old 03-28-2014, 06:34 PM   #152
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Ah yes, the Nordic Model.

Take the Saudi Model, except drill as much oil as you possibly can out of the ocean. Then Socialists from the world around can point to your tiny little country and say, "see their model works, and they have single payer, so we should be just like them!"

Is this really your last bastion of hope all ye Socialists? Oil? Has it really come to this? Lol
I swear to God I'd punch you in the face if you were sitting in front of me.

1) I never said we should adopt the nordic model. It would never work here
2) Sweden and Denmark also run it and don't have Norway's oil.
3) I used these countries as an example that socialism isn't evil like you claimed.
4) die.
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Old 03-28-2014, 06:43 PM   #153
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Pardon me if I didn't find a WEE little problem with American Socialist agenda. It's just a small paradox, nothing major lol.

Let me tell you something else, if you think the US economy is bad now, imagine what it would be like if we hadn't quietly became the worlds #1 oil producer in the last couple years due to the fracking revolution. Yes, I can almost hear the coins hitting the bottom of old Uncle Sams coffee can now! Do you hear it? Yes that's the sound of the deficit shrinking ladies and gentlemen, thanks to good ol' OIL. No thanks to the current administration of course.

I reckon you boys would've been out of business a LONG time ago, if it wasn't for unbridled capitalism keeping you afloat!

So fire up them derricks and keep 'em pumpin', cause were burnin' daylight, and losin' sea floor to the Nordic Model!
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Old 03-28-2014, 06:48 PM   #154
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Pardon me if I didn't find a WEE little problem with American Socialist agenda. It's just a small paradox, nothing major lol.

Let me tell you something else, if you think the US economy is bad now, imagine what it would be like if we hadn't quietly became the worlds #1 oil producer in the last couple years due to the fracking revolution. Yes, I can almost hear the coins hitting the bottom of old Uncle Sams coffee can now! Do you hear it? Yes that's the sound of the deficit shrinking ladies and gentlemen, thanks to good ol' OIL. No thanks to the current administration of course.

I reckon you boys would've been out of business a LONG time ago, if it wasn't for unbridled capitalism keeping you afloat!

So fire up them derricks and keep 'em pumpin', cause were burnin' daylight, and losin' sea floor to the Nordic Model!
I think you just talk and argue with yourself all ****ing day long. You make zero sense.

I'm done.
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Old 03-28-2014, 07:51 PM   #155
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Tesla has never made a profit. They had a couple quarters with a posted profit, but what average people forget to account for is that $60M of their quarterly revenue was from selling tax credits to other auto makers. Obviously not a sustainable business model, unless they sell a lot more vehicles.
In 3013 Q4, Tesla:

* Sold 7,000 vehicles (the most in its class)
* Increased revenue by 50% from Q3 (for a total of 500% over 2013)
* Already has 15,000 pre-orders for the Model X (which won't be out for another year or more)
* $2.4 bn in assets vs $1.8b in liabilities.

With LI-ION prices still falling, and the gigafactory which will reduce costs even more, Tesla is in a good position long term.

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The only problem with EV's is battery technology. Replacing a battery pack for $10,000 every 100k miles is simply not cost effective. Until that changes, EV's will never be as cheap as a gas car. Of course, if you can afford to pay $70,000 for a Tesla, you probably don't care. I'm an EE who used to work in the industry, but was laid off because my company only had 2 profitable quarters in it's 30 year history (due to gov grants).
A Telsa model S battery doesn't need to be replaced every 100,000 miles. It will retain around 85% of its capacity in that time. A person may want to replace it, but it's certainly not required to continue using the vehicle. ICEs also lose range with time as the engine and drive train wear out (especially if you don't maintain them properly, which is expensive, see below).

Also, the Model S has a particularly massive battery, even for an EV. It's a performance oriented full size sedan. It has performance comparable to a sports car with a ~400hp motor and <5sec 0-60. It's not comparable to what a main stream, no luxury/performance offering would be.


Oh yeah, and as far as overall maintenance cost? Even if you do want to replace the battery @ 100,000 miles for $10,000 you're not that far behind.

ICEs require a lot more maintenance than EVs (oil, fluids, gear sets, filters, plugs and other wear parts, smog checks, etc.) To the tune of about 5 cents a mile on average (via AAA). Or about $5,000 in 100,000 miles. Just in engine maintenance (not tires, gas, insurance, etc. which are not unique to an ICE).

So, in the event you really, really need that 15% extra range @ 100,000 miles, you've already saved $5,000 in maintenance to go toward that battery replacement. Once you add in the fuel savings (which for a model S is around $14,000 in 100,000 miles given current average prices) it's not even a competition.

With an ICE you pay more of the costs over time.

With an EV, you pay more of the costs up front.

Last edited by Fedaykin; 03-28-2014 at 08:02 PM..
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Old 03-28-2014, 07:59 PM   #156
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Okay, LeLo. You believe in Norway's model, yet you support the American Progressive Socialists. Where do you stand on CO2 emissions and climate change?

Do you realize that if the US government started pumping oil as much as Norway's government does per capita, that the US Gov would make $4 Trillion per year on oil alone? We could have the entire government debt paid off in 4 years! Imagine the surplus after 10 years of doing that (like Norway)! We could call it the US Model, patented closely after the Saudi Model, only with much more drilling (like Norway)! We could even disband our military so that we could pump more oil (like Norway)! Oh imagine how rich we'd be (like Norway)!


Reality doesn't work that way bub. Oil production does not, and could not scale linearly with population.

$4T in oil is around 40 billion barrels of oil (assuming, insanely, 100% profit), or around 1.5x the total world production and around 2x the proven oil reserves of the U.S.

Oh yeah, and if you miraculously triple the amount of oil on the market, the price will plummet, meaning you'll have to get even MORE oil to make the same amount. See ECON 101.
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Old 03-28-2014, 08:10 PM   #157
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I understand your point, but America was a booming industrial area when tax rates were MUCH higher. Also, I'm not advocating that wealthy people should give back all their money to create complete equality, but the rich can still live lavish lifestyles even with seemingly restrictive tax rates. I see no real evidence that high tax rates impede innovation. I get the theory, but in actuality this has not shown to happen.

Sure, there will always be takers, there will always be slackers. But I don't believe the majority of people are like that.
Yes. Then we're all in agreement that we should have another world war not on our shores so that the rest of the world's industrial output is near zero. We can then make all the stuff until they get rebuilt, then bomb them all again!
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Old 03-28-2014, 08:14 PM   #158
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Oh yeah, and if you miraculously triple the amount of oil on the market, the price will plummet, meaning you'll have to get even MORE oil to make the same amount. See ECON 101.
So you're saying the Nordic Model won't work for anyone but Norway? You my dear sir are quick as you are keen. Say it ain't so!!























If anyone actually thinks I'm proposing to follow the Nordic Model, you're out of you're ****ing mind. Which is almost as absurd, as American Socialists saying THEY propose to follow the Nordic Model, which is almost a complete opposite ideaology to their agenda.

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Old 03-28-2014, 08:28 PM   #159
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Turns out Teslas are bad for the environment and contribute to global warming. Gotta get that lithium from somehwere. Good ole EPA.

http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...or-proble.aspx
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Old 03-28-2014, 09:02 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Fedaykin View Post
In 3013 Q4, Tesla:

* Sold 7,000 vehicles (the most in its class)
* Increased revenue by 50% from Q3 (for a total of 500% over 2013)
* Already has 15,000 pre-orders for the Model X (which won't be out for another year or more)
* $2.4 bn in assets vs $1.8b in liabilities.

With LI-ION prices still falling, and the gigafactory which will reduce costs even more, Tesla is in a good position long term.



A Telsa model S battery doesn't need to be replaced every 100,000 miles. It will retain around 85% of its capacity in that time. A person may want to replace it, but it's certainly not required to continue using the vehicle. ICEs also lose range with time as the engine and drive train wear out (especially if you don't maintain them properly, which is expensive, see below).

Also, the Model S has a particularly massive battery, even for an EV. It's a performance oriented full size sedan. It has performance comparable to a sports car with a ~400hp motor and <5sec 0-60. It's not comparable to what a main stream, no luxury/performance offering would be.


Oh yeah, and as far as overall maintenance cost? Even if you do want to replace the battery @ 100,000 miles for $10,000 you're not that far behind.

ICEs require a lot more maintenance than EVs (oil, fluids, gear sets, filters, plugs and other wear parts, smog checks, etc.) To the tune of about 5 cents a mile on average (via AAA). Or about $5,000 in 100,000 miles. Just in engine maintenance (not tires, gas, insurance, etc. which are not unique to an ICE).

So, in the event you really, really need that 15% extra range @ 100,000 miles, you've already saved $5,000 in maintenance to go toward that battery replacement. Once you add in the fuel savings (which for a model S is around $14,000 in 100,000 miles given current average prices) it's not even a competition.

With an ICE you pay more of the costs over time.

With an EV, you pay more of the costs up front.
1. You think Electric Motors last forever? You think the Power Electronics last forever? Did you figure that into your fictitious maintenance costs?
2. If you really think a gas/diesel car requires $5,000 in engine maintenance in the 1st 100k miles, you must have bought a real lemon.
3. You don't think EV's require gear sets, brake fluids, transmission fluid, etc?
4. Do you think electricity is free?
5. All factors considered, a Ford Focus Electric costs ~$15k more over the first 120,000 miles than a Ford Focus ST. That's something the average consumer can't afford.


The cost curve still has to come way down for EV's to make sense for the average American. Like I said, please let me know when Tesla can break an actual profit, instead of factoring in $60M subsidization from American taxpayers.
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Old 03-28-2014, 09:20 PM   #161
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I could post articles from hundreds of climate scientists and the posters of a rightist persuasion would just ignore them. That's what I've come to expect from you.
The planet isn't warming.

Hasn't been for years and years.

You do realize that in theory...by posting on this forum and using a CPU and simply existing...you are of course adversely affecting the Earth in turn speeding up the already sure fire demise of every living creature alive...right?
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Old 03-28-2014, 09:46 PM   #162
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Yes. Then we're all in agreement that we should have another world war not on our shores so that the rest of the world's industrial output is near zero. We can then make all the stuff until they get rebuilt, then bomb them all again!
Tax rates were high long long long after WW2
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Old 03-28-2014, 09:50 PM   #163
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The planet isn't warming.

Hasn't been for years and years.

You do realize that in theory...by posting on this forum and using a CPU and simply existing...you are of course adversely affecting the Earth in turn speeding up the already sure fire demise of every living creature alive...right?
http://www.climate.gov/news-features...ng-past-decade
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Old 03-28-2014, 10:14 PM   #164
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What we're really talking about, is subsidization of the wealthy at the expense of the American taxpayer.

1. Purchase of a Tesla results in a $7,500 tax credit for the purchaser (add an additional $6000 tax credit in CO).
2. In 2012, Tesla lost $396M (including $41M in taxpayer-funded tax-credit revenues to other car makers).
3. In 2013, Tesla lost $74M (including $150M in taxpayer-funded tax-credit revenues to other car makers).

What does it all add up to? Middle class taxpayers subsidizing millionaires and billionaires for about $26k per car.
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Old 03-28-2014, 11:07 PM   #165
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1. You think Electric Motors last forever? You think the Power Electronics last forever? Did you figure that into your fictitious maintenance costs?
Never said they do last forever. They do last a lot longer than vastly more complex ICEs.

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2. If you really think a gas/diesel car requires $5,000 in engine maintenance in the 1st 100k miles, you must have bought a real lemon.
My info comes from AAA, and a quick sanity check. Sanity -- that thing you don't have. And we're talking scheduled maintenance, not repair.

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3. You don't think EV's require gear sets, brake fluids, transmission fluid, etc?
They don't need differentials or transmissions, moron. Those things are only necessary to compensate for the limitations of an ICE. (they do need brakes+fluid of course)

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4. Do you think electricity is free?
Didn't say or imply that it was.

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5. All factors considered, a Ford Focus Electric costs ~$15k more over the first 120,000 miles than a Ford Focus ST. That's something the average consumer can't afford.
Numbers? I don't doubt it's more expensive, but like I said, that cost is going nowhere but down (significantly) and greatly reduces the cost over time. When the up front cost gets low enough (very soon), it'll be as cheap or cheaper.

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The cost curve still has to come way down for EV's to make sense for the average American. Like I said, please let me know when Tesla can break an actual profit, instead of factoring in $60M subsidization from American taxpayers.
$60m/quarter is about 1/10 their revenue. Not to mention the tax subsidies that petrol producers and many ICE car makers currently enjoy.

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Old 03-28-2014, 11:56 PM   #166
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They don't need differentials or transmissions, moron..
Ours used a single-speed reduction transmission, and undoubtedly would have to be serviced (or replaced) throughout the life of the car.
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Old 03-29-2014, 12:22 AM   #167
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Socialists and proggies tend to view inequality itself (in outcomes or anything else) as a core evil that should be stamped out.
I'm not sure that's quite true. They seem to dislike the market deciding who benefits from the inequality. Governments do a dandy job of creating inequality and progressives are more comfortable with top-down inequality rather than bottom-up.
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Old 03-29-2014, 01:45 AM   #168
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Ours used a single-speed reduction transmission,
A reduction gear is not even remotely the same thing as a multi-speed transmission that needs regular maintenance in an ICE (i.e. a "transmission").

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and undoubtedly would have to be serviced (or replaced) throughout the life of the car.
According to whom and on what schedule? Of course it won't last *forever*, but a simple reduction gear, unless shoddily made or is damaged, will outlast any ICE, and because its a sealed system won't need much servicing unless it leaks. A simple reduction gear doesn't have the same challenges as an ICE, such as contamination/degradation of lubricant, large momentum shifts, thousands of moving parts, etc.

The reason your transmission gears fail is because of the wear and tear of changing the gear combinations/ratios, not from just spinning in a single gear. Hence why the most common failure case in any transmission (manual or auto) is "won't engage and/or change gears".

Neither Tesla nor Nisson have any scheduled or required servicing of the reduction gears they use (though they do call for inspection, just like any other mechanical part). Basically, if it ain't leaking, you're good at least up to 120,000 miles where the maintenance schedules stop. A transmission requires multiple servicings before 100,000 miles (see manuals below).

As far as overall maintenance, let's compare apples to apples eh?

Here's the link to the Nisson Leaf maintenance schedule. Nothing required but inspections, brakes, tires and cabin air filters for 120,000 miles. (oh yeah, and EVs typically use regenerative braking for all or most of their braking needs, so their brakes will last longer than an ICE all else being equal)

https://owners.nissanusa.com/content...ance-guide.pdf

Compare with the schedule for ICE for the Versa:

http://www.nissanusa.com/pdf/techpub...2010_N_SMG.pdf

Oil, brakes, transmission fluid replacement (multiple times), engine coolant replacement (multiple times), spark plugs (multiple times), and many other ICE specific maintenance requirements.
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Old 03-29-2014, 01:54 AM   #169
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So you're saying the Nordic Model won't work for anyone but Norway? You my dear sir are quick as you are keen. Say it ain't so!!
Oh no, I missed sarcasm on the intertubes. That never happened to anyone but me!

Of course, it's irrelevant since we have just about the same GDP per capita. The source of that gdp is rather irrelevant.

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Old 03-29-2014, 01:02 PM   #170
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Oh no, I missed sarcasm on the intertubes. That never happened to anyone but me!

Of course, it's irrelevant since we have just about the same GDP per capita. The source of that gdp is rather irrelevant.
1. I'm not going to quibble about cost of electric vs. gas. I know all the benefits and limitations to electric vs. gas. Let me know when Tesla has a real profitable quarter. As it stands, middle-class taxpayers are footing the bill for this losing venture.


2. The difference is Norway's government owns an oil company (Statoil), and makes an enormous profit of proceeds from oil. The Government Pension Fund Global (Norway's "Petroleum fund") is now the largest sovereign wealth fund in the world. The GPFG now owns 1.3% of the world’s stocks. Last year, the GPFG saw a return of 15.9%, or about $115B. GPFG is currently worth $850B. Norway's entire GDP is only $500B. The sovereign fund is recorded as an asset of the Norwegian government. As a result, Norway records a massive (16% of GDP in 2013) annual SURPLUS.

In US terms, it's as if the US Government nationalized Chevron 25 years ago, drilled as much as it could in the ocean off the US coastline, and had an asset fund from proceeds of oil equaling $27T. Enough to pay off the national debt, and have an enormous surplus, just like Norway.

That's the "Nordic Model".
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Old 03-29-2014, 01:21 PM   #171
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The Norway government owns 37% of the Oslo stock market (thanks to the Oil fund), and also owns the countries largest telephone company, aluminum producer, fertilizer producer and bank. Petroleum accounts for 30% of Norway's government revenues.

How did Norway get to this point? They nationalized all the businesses held by the Nazis after WWII. Norway is what China wishes it could be.

Can you imagine how "rich" the US government would be if it nationalized 37% of US businesses?

This is what the US Progressive Socialists look to as a "successful" government model. Nationalizing 1/3 of US business, instituting the highest tax rates in the world, and drilling for as much oil as they possibly can.

Norway is currently the ONLY Nordic country with a federal budget surplus, and it's easy to see why.
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Old 03-29-2014, 01:30 PM   #172
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Pricejj has created this odd argument with himself about Norway. I brought up Nordic countries as an example that democratic socialist governments are not tyrannical blood suckers out for your freedommmmZzzz. He's turned it into an argument that it can never work for America. No ****ing ****.
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Old 03-29-2014, 01:53 PM   #173
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Turns out Teslas are bad for the environment and contribute to global warming. Gotta get that lithium from somehwere. Good ole EPA.

http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...or-proble.aspx
This has been known for years. If you account for pollusion caused during production a Toyota Prius does about the same environmental damage over its entire lifetime as a supercharged Range Rover and several fold more than a Merc S-class with a V6 diesel and 250 BHP.
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Old 03-29-2014, 01:54 PM   #174
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If you seriously want an investment platform buy physical precious metals. We've printed money for years and suppressed markets. At some the market and dollar will show their true worth and commodities of any persuasion will sky rocket. Can't say as though I'd touch Tesla, good luck though...

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Old 03-29-2014, 02:30 PM   #175
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Pricejj has created this odd argument with himself about Norway. I brought up Nordic countries as an example that democratic socialist governments are not tyrannical blood suckers out for your freedommmmZzzz. He's turned it into an argument that it can never work for America. No ****ing ****.
Don't take it as an affront to you Le-lo. I am only exposed to the side of Socialism that is the US Progressive Socialists, the history I read about, and the continuous onslaught against the US Constitution that the current administration has wraught. Other than the personal attacks (which I don't really blame you for), it's been a good conversation. I highly respect your opinion, even if I do disagree. Your original point that the Norwegian model isn't "evil" per se is acknowledged. I would agree that their intentions are not evil. The outcomes, I would argue are far different, but I do see your point of view.

The process has been a eye-opening path of discovery, that I previously did not know about the Nordic model, so thanks. Always glad to learn.
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