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Old 03-28-2014, 02:40 PM   #126
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A tesla would never run directly off solar panels. Only way a solar panel is getting involved is if it's providing power to the electrical outlet the car is plugged into.
What I was asked was how would you charge it without a utility company. But I understand where the Right is coming from. Nothing is wrong. Everything is great. Everything will continue to be great. Change is inherently evil. I got it.
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Old 03-28-2014, 02:41 PM   #127
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Could be worse...like obtaining an apple on your own only to find out there's several bite chunks taken out of it.
Get out of my orchard.
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Old 03-28-2014, 02:41 PM   #128
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I actually developed a 150kW system, and helped out on a 200kW system. Our lowest power units were rated to 80kW continuous. Not that it matters anymore. I was laid off, because the company had 2 profitable quarters (with help from gov grants), in it's entire 30 year history.
You should work for the DoE or talk to my dad because I don't know nothing about what you be talking.
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Old 03-28-2014, 02:45 PM   #129
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And stop assuming all socialist governments are blood sucking dictators. Again, look at the nordic countries. They arent out to take your freedoms.
Taking freedoms comes in many forms. One of them is confiscating half or more of your income to serve the majoritarian or political bureau's purposes.
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Old 03-28-2014, 02:47 PM   #130
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Old 03-28-2014, 02:55 PM   #131
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Taking freedoms comes in many forms. One of them is confiscating half or more of your income to serve the majoritarian or political bureau's purposes.
Yeah, if you're equating money to "freedom." I see that as a society that understands there is strength in the whole, as well as celebrating the individualism. If your goal in life is to own a yacht, then sure, its a ****ty system. If your goal in life is to live in a safe, harmonious society with a strong middle class, then its more in line with that vision. Considering money and economies are created by governments to manage society, I could argue that money should be more collective in general. This is all idealistically speaking, and just my opinion though of course, but I personally don't equate my freedom and happiness by how much I earn. Nor do i tie my self worth to it. And, outside of paying taxes, those people can do whatever the hell they want within reason.

Also, wasn't there studies done recently that show that money stress isnt a huge factor after you make 60-70k? (though i have no clue how they measure such a thing). But, regardless, its interesting.
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:03 PM   #132
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Uh, i didnt ****ing say that. I said if your common denominator is corruption, you'll find it anywhere. Read the communist manifesto and find comparisons to our current government. You will barely find a similarity.

And stop assuming all socialist governments are blood sucking dictators. Again, look at the nordic countries. They arent out to take your freedoms.
As I stated before, the US Progressive Socialist agenda is almost the complete opposite to Norway. So don't for a minute claim you are like them.

1. Norway continues to reduce government spending (not search for ways to keep spending more)
2. Norway heavily taxes ALL it's citizens (not just the top 50% of wage earners)
3. Norway doesn't give non-citizens public assistance
4. Norway drills far more oil per capita than anyone on the planet.

Norway represents everything the current US administration demonizes it's opponents for. It's laughable really, and I'm glad someone brought it up.
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:07 PM   #133
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Yeah, if you're equating money to "freedom." I see that as a society that understands there is strength in the whole, as well as celebrating the individualism. If your goal in life is to own a yacht, then sure, its a ****ty system. If your goal in life is to live in a safe, harmonious society with a strong middle class, then its more in line with that vision. Considering money and economies are created by governments to manage society, I could argue that money should be more collective in general. This is all idealistically speaking, and just my opinion though of course, but I personally don't equate my freedom and happiness by how much I earn. Nor do i tie my self worth to it. And, outside of paying taxes, those people can do whatever the hell they want within reason.

Also, wasn't there studies done recently that show that money stress isnt a huge factor after you make 60-70k? (though i have no clue how they measure such a thing). But, regardless, its interesting.
This is all mental masturbation so it's easy to double down on the idealism, but in practical society, confiscatory tax rates have a huge impact on individual decision-making (and by extension, freedom)

Don't think of it in terms of actual money. Think of it in terms of the things you do with your money that you value. Or what you would do with say 30% more income as opposed to a central bureaucracy taking that chunk.

Needless to say, if your average American had to pay a 50% tax rate, he would live in a smaller house. Drive crappier cars. Have fewer kids. Not send them to the same college, or college at all. Give less to charity. Eat out less. Vacation less. Go to the movie less. And on and on and on. In fact it's hard to even think of a more efficient way to restrict an individual's freedom than to take the fruit of his labor. At least if we're taking complete totalitarianism off the table. We like to confine the idea of "freedom" to minority or sexual rights. But all of that is virtually insignificant to your average middle class American. You can say "Well, the government will make up for it with X,Y, and Z" but that's when it becomes clear how much you're sacrificing the individual's choice to the will of the political class.

The long and short of it is if you gave most people the choice between voting and doubling their income, most would choose doubling their income. That tells you pretty much everything you need to know about Property Rights, Money, and Freedom.

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Old 03-28-2014, 03:09 PM   #134
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You should work for the DoE or talk to my dad because I don't know nothing about what you be talking.
I was a SULI intern with DOE for 3 months before I graduated and was offered a job. I didn't take it because I wanted a job in the private sector.
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:09 PM   #135
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As I stated before, the US Progressive Socialist agenda is almost the complete opposite to Norway. So don't for a minute claim you are like them.

1. Norway continues to reduce government spending (not search for ways to keep spending more)
2. Norway heavily taxes ALL it's citizens (not just the top 50% of wage earners)
3. Norway doesn't give non-citizens public assistance
4. Norway drills far more oil per capita than anyone on the planet.

Norway represents everything the current US administration demonizes it's opponents for. It's laughable really, and I'm glad someone brought it up.
You are infuriating. One, i NEVER SAID THE US WAS LIKE NORWAY! WHAT THE **** ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. Two, NORWAY IS STILL FAR LEFT OF THE US. Three, STOP LUMPING ME IN WITH WHATEVER YOU THINK THE "US SOCIALIST AGENDA" IS. Which im sure you ****ing know nothing about.

The "Nordic Model"

One of the major underlying principles of Norwegian political culture is an emphasis on economic equality. While the current model for the Norwegian Welfare State is largely based on the “Nordic model” forged in the twentieth century, the Norwegian ethos of economic equality has deep roots in the country’s history. Unlike many other European nations, a strong feudalism never developed in Norway, and even with the economic inequities of the Industrial Revolution, the differences in standards of living were “much smaller than in most other European countries”. In the fourteenth century, a regional “legd” system was established, this system (which lasted until 1900) guaranteed work for the rural Norwegian poor. It is quite evident that economic equality is viewed as a tradition ingrained within the historical political culture of Norway – instead of a reaction against entrenched inequality.

The Social Assistance Act of 1900, which provided assistance to those unable to find work or support themselves, laid the foundation for the modern Norwegian welfare state. Social programs and assistance were further expanded in the1930s under the Labour government, but the current wide-ranging welfare state was firmly cemented by the National Social Insurance (NSI) act passed in 1967. The NSI established a socialized system of universal healthcare, old age and disability pensions, sick pay, and unemployment benefits. Currently, 33% of Norwegian GDP is spent on social welfare programs (the US spends 19% GDP respectively). These programs are funded through a progressive tax system, in which taxation accounts for 40% of Norwegian GDP, and oil revenue.

A sense of obligation to assist the poor, old, and sick is deeply ingrained within Norwegian political culture. This obligation is tied to the aforementioned traditional concerns for economic equality, but is ultimately made possible by the wealth derived from Norway’s natural resources. Since the 1970s, the discovery and extraction of large amounts of oil and gas reserves in the adjacent North Sea have allowed Norway to become one of the wealthiest nations in the world (as of 2006, it had the second-highest per capita income). Oil and gas account for half of Norway’s exports, and 30% of its GDP, this is especially significant considering that Norway is ranked fourth in the world for oil exports (ahead of Iran, UAE, and Kuwait). Norway has used its petroleum revenue to fund social welfare programs for its population.

The most symbolic of these programs is the “Government Pension Fund”, which was established because of a slow decline in Norwegian oil production. In keeping with the Norwegian ethos of economic equality through long-term planning, the fund was established to maintain social programs for posterity; and as of 2006, the fund had the equivalent 36,000 Euro for every Norwegian citizen (NOK 1456 billion in total). While many oil-rich countries have suffered an “oil curse” in which revenues are siphoned into the bank accounts of a wealthy elite or multi-national corporation, Norwegian governments have used its revenues to maintain and ensure the well-being of the Norwegian people.

Derived from the Scandinavian tradition of economic equality, the ultimate symbol of the political culture of Modern Norway is found in its strong, well-funded welfare state. Aside from this deep-rooted tradition, the development of a homogeneous political culture can be tied to the demographic makeup of the country, but also the Norwegian solidarity forged under Nazi occupation in World War Two. Norway’s current welfare state established in the decades following the war has derived its strength from the Norwegian ethos of economic equality, and has derived its funding from a careful management of Norway’s natural resources. The combination of these factors has allowed for the emergence of a wealthy, stable, and peaceful Norway.
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:13 PM   #136
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Who did you vote for in the last two presidential elections LeLo? Don't lie.
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:13 PM   #137
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This is all mental masturbation so it's easy to double down on the idealism, but in practical society, confiscatory tax rates have a huge impact on individual decision-making (and by extension, freedom)

Don't think of it in terms of actual money. Think of it in terms of the things you do with your money that you value. Or what you would do with say 30% more income as opposed to a central bureaucracy taking that chunk.

Needless to say, if your average American had to pay a 50% tax rate, he would live in a smaller house. Drive crappier cars. Have fewer kids. Not send them to the same college, or college at all. Give less to charity. Eat out less. Vacation less. Go to the movie less. And on and on and on. In fact it's hard to even think of a more efficient way to restrict an individual's freedom than to take the fruit of his labor. At least if we're taking complete totalitarianism off the table. We like to confine the idea of "freedom" to minority or sexual rights. But all of that is virtually insignificant to your average middle class American.

The long and short of it is if you gave most people the choice between voting and doubling their income, most would choose doubling their income. That tells you pretty much everything you need to know about Property Rights, Money, and Freedom.
I said I was talking ideals, not practicality, but I still disagree its a restriction of freedom simply because the same exact society that provided you that money is the one you're giving back to. If we all lived in individual pods where we didn't need one another for anything, then i'd agree with you 100 percent. But I'm a believer in funding the society that gave you the opportunity to be successful. And again, I don't think money or the things money buys equates freedom.

We can agree to disagree on this. I totally see and understand your point, I just don't agree with it. Not belittling it, we just won't see eye to eye on it..and thats OK.
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:17 PM   #138
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Who did you vote for in the last two presidential elections LeLo? Don't lie.
Of course democrats, but thats just picking the less of two evils, not a huge endorsement of their agendas as a whole. If it wasn't a two party system, I'd vote with a different party im sure. I also dont think the country is going to hell like people within the republican bubble seem to think, or if it is, it was headed their regardless of who is in charge.

But the reality is, the american government is what it is. As to all major issues, the cats out of the bag. Healthcare was ruined decades ago, the military budget will always be bloated, and we have a society that has zero interest in compromise. Thats not gonna change until the aliens invade or the meteor slams into the Atlantic and we're forced to work together.

but also, i think its impossible to run a harmonious society that holds over 300 million people. We're overpopulated.
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:33 PM   #139
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I said I was talking ideals, not practicality, but I still disagree its a restriction of freedom simply because the same exact society that provided you that money is the one you're giving back to. If we all lived in individual pods where we didn't need one another for anything, then i'd agree with you 100 percent. But I'm a believer in funding the society that gave you the opportunity to be successful. And again, I don't think money or the things money buys equates freedom.

We can agree to disagree on this. I totally see and understand your point, I just don't agree with it. Not belittling it, we just won't see eye to eye on it..and thats OK.
The thing is, it's not even a morality thing. It's not about right or wrong. It's about functional vs non-functional. The worker's psychology fundamentally shifts when he sees others deriving as much or more benefit from his labors as he does.

Put a comfortable floor under his standard of living and a punitive cap on his earning too much, and he will find the easiest medium. Why work overtime to put your kids through college if you can instead let your income fall into the realm of the social contract and have the labors of others pay for it instead?

That's not to say it's ever usually that simple. But it does nutshell exactly the kinds of choices that are made in entitlement societies. And it's the central reason why Soviet productivity fell to the point where they were staring a return to third world status directly in the face.
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:37 PM   #140
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Of course democrats, but thats just picking the less of two evils, not a huge endorsement of their agendas as a whole. If it wasn't a two party system, I'd vote with a different party im sure. I also dont think the country is going to hell like people within the republican bubble seem to think, or if it is, it was headed their regardless of who is in charge.

But the reality is, the american government is what it is. As to all major issues, the cats out of the bag. Healthcare was ruined decades ago, the military budget will always be bloated, and we have a society that has zero interest in compromise. Thats not gonna change until the aliens invade or the meteor slams into the Atlantic and we're forced to work together.

but also, i think its impossible to run a harmonious society that holds over 300 million people. We're overpopulated.
Overpopulated and relaxed borders go hand in hand. Especially when they come in to saturate the social related programs.
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:38 PM   #141
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Two sides of the apocalypse coin:
Side One: We're ****ed. Climate change will wipe us out. We've got to take action and make changes now!
Side Two: We're ****ed. Don't have the resources or tech to fix it. Might as well fuggedaboutit and pretend like nothing is happening.
Hang on...

Do you really believe we are destroying the Earth?
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:47 PM   #142
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The thing is, it's not even a morality thing. It's not about right or wrong. It's about functional vs non-functional. The worker's psychology fundamentally shifts when he sees others deriving as much or more benefit from his labors as he does.

Put a comfortable floor under his standard of living and a punitive cap on his earning too much, and he will find the easiest medium. Why work overtime to put your kids through college if you can instead let your income fall into the realm of the social contract and have the labors of others pay for it instead?

That's not to say it's ever usually that simple. But it does nutshell exactly the kinds of choices that are made in entitlement societies. And it's the central reason why Soviet productivity fell to the point where they were staring a return to third world status directly in the face.
I understand your point, but America was a booming industrial area when tax rates were MUCH higher. Also, I'm not advocating that wealthy people should give back all their money to create complete equality, but the rich can still live lavish lifestyles even with seemingly restrictive tax rates. I see no real evidence that high tax rates impede innovation. I get the theory, but in actuality this has not shown to happen.

Sure, there will always be takers, there will always be slackers. But I don't believe the majority of people are like that.
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:48 PM   #143
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Overpopulated and relaxed borders go hand in hand. Especially when they come in to saturate the social related programs.
Our immigration is at net zero right now, isnt it? People are living longer, and people are still having kids. This isn't an american problem, this is a worldwide problem.
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:52 PM   #144
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:54 PM   #145
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Hang on...

Do you really believe we are destroying the Earth?
You mean the Earth as a ball of rock circling the sun? No.
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Old 03-28-2014, 04:00 PM   #146
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You mean the Earth as a ball of rock circling the sun? No.
1. You didn't answer the question.

2. This is the level of scientific explanation we have all come to expect from you.

Carry on Dr. Science.
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Old 03-28-2014, 05:00 PM   #147
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Okay, LeLo. You believe in Norway's model, yet you support the American Progressive Socialists. Where do you stand on CO2 emissions and climate change?

Do you realize that if the US government started pumping oil as much as Norway's government does per capita, that the US Gov would make $4 Trillion per year on oil alone? We could have the entire government debt paid off in 4 years! Imagine the surplus after 10 years of doing that (like Norway)! We could call it the US Model, patented closely after the Saudi Model, only with much more drilling (like Norway)! We could even disband our military so that we could pump more oil (like Norway)! Oh imagine how rich we'd be (like Norway)!
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Old 03-28-2014, 05:09 PM   #148
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Ah yes, the Nordic Model.

Take the Saudi Model, except drill as much oil as you possibly can out of the ocean. Then Socialists from the world around can point to your tiny little country and say, "see their model works, and they have single payer, so we should be just like them!"

Is this really your last bastion of hope all ye Socialists? Oil? Has it really come to this? Lol
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Old 03-28-2014, 05:24 PM   #149
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There are of course, the idealist Communists and Socialists, who truly believe that humans can live like ants or bees. Where all can live in harmony, working as hard as they can, to serve the queen.

Unfortunately, they don't understand human nature, and just how important individual rights are toward human thought, invention, and prosperity.
You seem to be doing well.

You're not seriously trying to tell us you've been stagnated, are you?

I thought you were funny before, but if you stipulate that I'll go full belly laugh . . .
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Old 03-28-2014, 05:33 PM   #150
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Okay, LeLo. You believe in Norway's model, yet you support the American Progressive Socialists. Where do you stand on CO2 emissions and climate change?

Do you realize that if the US government started pumping oil as much as Norway's government does per capita, that the US Gov would make $4 Trillion per year on oil alone? We could have the entire government debt paid off in 4 years! Imagine the surplus after 10 years of doing that (like Norway)! We could call it the US Model, patented closely after the Saudi Model, only with much more drilling (like Norway)! We could even disband our military so that we could pump more oil (like Norway)! Oh imagine how rich we'd be (like Norway)!
Holy ****ing ****, do you read ANYTHING i write. First off, i have no clue who the "American Progressive Socialists" are, nor did I claim to be their leader or follow them. Nor do I think you know anything about them if they even exist.
Nor did I say American should adopt the Scandinavian model ( i said it wouldnt work here), nor did I ever mention a thing about CO2 emissions, nor did I ever talk about oil. All I was talking about was their social safety net and how the nordic countries are not tyrannical people lusting for your freedoms. Why the **** do you keep changing the subject?
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