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Old 12-20-2013, 11:14 PM   #176
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If Manning never wins another SB he is already the GOAT. If the ratbirds wasn't getting away with murder last year, Manning wouldn't have thrown the int.
Nope.

If the Broncos lose in the 1st round of the playoffs this year, Manning would have a 9-12 playoff record...

..including 9 first game playoff exits.
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Old 12-20-2013, 11:24 PM   #177
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I prefer to remember the games instead of looking up stats, but since you already have.

I knew that TD played a huge part but lmao at those numbers.
I actually just re-watched the game. If you watched it again, you would know that the numbers really mean nothing. Elway did what he had to do to win.

The Chargers this last Thursday played a lot like the Broncos did in SB32. Both teams kept the ball on the ground and ate up the clock, with timely shots down the field. Rivers went 12/20 for 166 yards against the Broncos on Thursday. I bet you wouldn't say he had a bad game, would you?

Anybody who thinks that the Broncos 97/98 teams couldn't win the SB today, the Chargers just pretty much proved otherwise. Last week's game was a rude introduction to playoff football for the Broncos. All year the Broncos Offense has been all-or-nothing. Scoring, or going 3-and-out as quickly as possible, leaving the dog-tired Defense on the field all game long. If everybody is wide-open and you can take advantage of a deferred kick-off, everything works out great. If the Defense bottles up the WR's, and the Manning is slightly out of rhythm, it will be tough for the Broncos to win.

Playoff football is a far different beast than the regular season, as has been proven time and time again over Peyton Manning's 15 year NFL career. Occasionally, all three phases play 3 great games in a row, you catch lightning in a bottle, and go on to win the Superbowl. Most of the time, however, heightened Defensive intensity leads to several stalled drives for Manning's Offense, and his teams Defense is over-powered from being on the field for long stretches. In a close game, with a marginal running attack (due to 11 personnel) the pressure is ratcheted up on Manning (like it would be any QB). With his lack of ability to consistently drive the ball down the field (especially in cold weather), and his lack of mobility, opposing Defenses drop 7 or 8 into coverage and press the LOS, leading to an eventual turnover, or simply another failed drive to end the game.

Just like in SBXLIV, just like in the Broncos playoff loss to the Ravens, just like the Broncos loss to the Chargers, and just like Manning's 7 other 1-and-done playoff losses.

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Old 12-20-2013, 11:45 PM   #178
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I actually just re-watched the game. If you watched it again, you would know that the numbers really mean nothing. Elway did what he had to do to win.

The Chargers this last Thursday played a lot like the Broncos did in SB32. Both teams kept the ball on the ground and ate up the clock, with timely shots down the field. Rivers went 12/20 for 166 yards against the Broncos on Thursday. I bet you wouldn't say he had a bad game, would you?

Anybody who thinks that the Broncos 97/98 teams couldn't win the SB today, the Chargers just pretty much proved otherwise. Last week's game was a rude introduction to playoff football for the Broncos. All year the Broncos Offense has been all-or nothing. Scoring, or going 3-and-out as quickly as possible, leaving the dog-tired Defense on the field all game long. If everybody is wide-open and you can take advantage of a deferred kick-off, everything works out great.

If the Defense bottles up the WR's, and the Manning is slightly out of rhythm, it will be tough for the Broncos to win.
1. Elway was a great qb with a great team.

2. I would definitely say Rivers wasn't the contributing factor in the win!

3. I'm positive the 97/98 Broncos could win this super bowl! The 2013 broncos defense gives itself plenty of reasons to be tired, like screen door tired.

4. Out of rhythm asks Manning if it's in rhythm.

I'm talking about the greatest quarterback of all time, not greatest team.
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Old 12-21-2013, 12:15 AM   #179
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I'm talking about the greatest quarterback of all time, not greatest team.
Top 3 are Elway, Montana, and Brady.

Manning has to win another SB to get to their level, and win two more SB's to be the undisputed GOAT.
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Old 12-21-2013, 12:21 AM   #180
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Top 3 are Elway, Montana, and Brady.

Manning has to win another SB to get to their level, and win two more SB's to be the undisputed GOAT.
I'm sorry. I almost forget sometimes.


Super Bowl rings are won by teams, not a player. Check out the d stats on your boys compared to Manning. The greatest super bowl winning team qb? Maybe not. The greatest ****ing quarterback to ever play? Easy
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Old 12-21-2013, 01:45 AM   #181
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Also, Elway put on a passing clinic in SB33 going 18/29 for 336 yards.

His lone touchdown pass was an 85 yard pass completion to Rod Smith that traveled 50+ yards in the air. The Broncos only turnover, was an INT that bounced off Shannon Sharpe's chest. By several accounts, Elway was passing the ball better and with more consistency than at any point in his life.

Elway was SB33 MVP, and retired that offseason, going out on top as a two-time Super bowl champion.
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Old 12-21-2013, 03:50 AM   #182
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Right now, Manning would be in the conversation as one of the best regular season QB's ever.
Agree, sure, but book's not closed yet. He could win one here, he's poised to do so. He'll never be GOAT though, not a chance. Way too many one-and-done post-seasons (and the Porter pick-6 in SB three years back).

Brady's an obnoxious child, but I put him even with Montana at #1. He single-handedly made Bill Belichick a highly-respected coach, and like Montana, his teams win 10-plus games every year regardless of circumstances (9-7 once).

Brady beat the Saints on Sunday Night this year with two rookies and a street free agent at skill positions. Make that two rooks and two street FAs when Amendola went down in the 3rd quarter. Still, Brady patched together a spectacular last-minute TD drive against the vaunted Saints defense, couppla 4th downs converted. Pretty amazing.
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Old 12-21-2013, 05:48 AM   #183
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Agree, sure, but book's not closed yet. He could win one here, he's poised to do so. He'll never be GOAT though, not a chance. Way too many one-and-done post-seasons (and the Porter pick-6 in SB three years back).

Brady's an obnoxious child, but I put him even with Montana at #1. He single-handedly made Bill Belichick a highly-respected coach, and like Montana, his teams win 10-plus games every year regardless of circumstances (9-7 once).

Brady beat the Saints on Sunday Night this year with two rookies and a street free agent at skill positions. Make that two rooks and two street FAs when Amendola went down in the 3rd quarter. Still, Brady patched together a spectacular last-minute TD drive against the vaunted Saints defense, couppla 4th downs converted. Pretty amazing.
Brady made bellicheat. This long winded post was just a joke right? If Brady made Bellicheat, then when Brady got hurt why did the Pats go 11-5. Brady must be pretty powerful recovering from his injury. Interestingly Brady is a much better QB now than when his TEAMS won 3 SBs. Need I remind you that Vinateri kicked and won two of those SBs. That Brady was playing on complete teams with an incredibly talented and cheating defense, a sound run game, and a clutch kicker. Interesting that as the completeness of the team around him has lessened so has his playoff fortunes.

Oh but maybe he should win MVP this year, he has done so much with less. Even though without Gronkowski they average 20 pts a game, Brady has a 62 QBR without Gronkowski, and you forgot the phantom holding call against New Orleans in that game chief.

Let me remind you Peyton Manning has made the playoffs every year but twice in his career (rookie season and third season). And let's not forget the 2-14 Colts, who lost on a last second field goal the year prior in the playoffs to the Jets. Or the year before that were in the SB, same Colts. A team vastly overrated because of the defencies Peyton would hide all season his whole career, until the playoffs, when those defencies would show.

Too many one and dones huh. If the Broncos win the SB this year, it would be played in home games in the Denver Cold, and a SB in a Cold Met Life stadium. That would solidify Peyton and the argument of Cold weather and can't win in the big games.

Some don't realize how lucky they are..
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Old 12-21-2013, 06:01 AM   #184
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Brady made bellicheat. This long winded post was just a joke right? If Brady made Bellicheat, then when Brady got hurt why did the Pats go 11-5. Brady must be pretty powerful recovering from his injury. Interestingly Brady is a much better QB now than when his TEAMS won 3 SBs. Need I remind you that Vinateri kicked and won two of those SBs. That Brady was playing on complete teams with an incredibly talented and cheating defense, a sound run game, and a clutch kicker. Interesting that as the completeness of the team around him has lessened so has his playoff fortunes.

Oh but maybe he should win MVP this year, he has done so much with less. Even though without Gronkowski they average 20 pts a game, Brady has a 62 QBR without Gronkowski, and you forgot the phantom holding call against New Orleans in that game chief.

Let me remind you Peyton Manning has made the playoffs every year but twice in his career (rookie season and third season). And let's not forget the 2-14 Colts, who lost on a last second field goal the year prior in the playoffs to the Jets. Or the year before that were in the SB, same Colts. A team vastly overrated because of the defencies Peyton would hide all season his whole career, until the playoffs, when those defencies would show.

Too many one and dones huh. If the Broncos win the SB this year, it would be played in home games in the Denver Cold, and a SB in a Cold Met Life stadium. That would solidify Peyton and the argument of Cold weather and can't win in the big games.

Some don't realize how lucky they are..
I agree with every single word. Repped.
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Old 12-21-2013, 06:04 AM   #185
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D stats? Elway's SB Defenses were never great.

'89 - 28th (last place Defense, killed by '49ers)
The Niners were not going to be denied, and nobody was beating them that year, but that's just flat out incorrect.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...s/1989/opp.htm

The 1989 defense was damn good. It was all over in the Super Bowl though when that cheap shot motherfugger lineman leg whipped Mecklenburg and even kept trying to do it to Kragen.

Denver was the #1 scoring defense, #1 in first downs allowed, 3rd in yards, and 2nd in turnovers that year.

The generated 43 turnovers which is over 2 a game, and they were a distant second to the Beagles who generated 56 that year!
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Old 12-21-2013, 06:24 AM   #186
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I agree with every single word. Repped.
The sad part is, we are diminishing the play of two of the greatest QBs ever to play the game. Picking apart their stats, their flaws. The ironic part is we are the fans of those QBs. I loved Elway growing up, I wasn't a die hard Bronco fan, but I cheered for Elway and Denver.. after all their wasn't a team in Baltimore and that's how I learned to appreciate greatness. Marino, Montana, and Elway!

But most of you guys had and have the privilege of watching John Elway and now Peyton Manning. You guys are one blessed and lucky fanbase, especially if Peyton can bring some hardware back to Denver.

Let's just enjoy the journey folks. Peyton is a once in a lifetime QB, and he wears Orange and Blue!
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Old 12-21-2013, 06:34 AM   #187
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Peyton Manning could be a top 5 QB without being the greatest QB of any franchise because of John Elway and Johnny Unitas.
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Old 12-21-2013, 07:48 AM   #188
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people picking Elway over Manning are loco. just my two cents
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Old 12-21-2013, 08:11 AM   #189
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The starters from 97/98 would have gotten crushed in today's league. Especially by the more physical teams.
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Old 12-21-2013, 08:53 AM   #190
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Brady made bellicheat. This long winded post was just a joke right? If Brady made Bellicheat, then when Brady got hurt why did the Pats go 11-5. Brady must be pretty powerful recovering from his injury. Interestingly Brady is a much better QB now than when his TEAMS won 3 SBs. Need I remind you that Vinateri kicked and won two of those SBs. That Brady was playing on complete teams with an incredibly talented and cheating defense, a sound run game, and a clutch kicker. Interesting that as the completeness of the team around him has lessened so has his playoff fortunes.
This specifically shows how poor the "rings" argument is
On a team with 53 players along with coaches and trainers it is so stupid and simple minded to assign wins and losses to a single player
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Old 12-21-2013, 08:54 AM   #191
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Brady made bellicheat. This long winded post was just a joke right? If Brady made Bellicheat, then when Brady got hurt why did the Pats go 11-5. Brady must be pretty powerful recovering from his injury. Interestingly Brady is a much better QB now than when his TEAMS won 3 SBs. Need I remind you that Vinateri kicked and won two of those SBs. That Brady was playing on complete teams with an incredibly talented and cheating defense, a sound run game, and a clutch kicker. Interesting that as the completeness of the team around him has lessened so has his playoff fortunes.
You thought THAT post was long-winded, please! I constructed an even more detailed, long-winded post that laid out the case that Brady is and was Belichick's good fortune. I firmly believe had Bledsoe not been injured, the 2001 Patriots would have finished with a losing record (they were a bad 0-2 when he went down), and BB's head coaching career would have been over in another couple years. Here you go:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ME!
Bill Belichick is the most overrated man in sports.

Week 2 of 2001, Belichick's record as a head coach stood at 41-57, just one winning record in seven seasons. The Pats were 0-2, having scored a mere 20 points in two weeks. And now their starting QB Drew Bledsoe was knocked out with injury, and the reins were reluctantly handed to Brady. In Week 3, Brady and the New-Pats exploded for 44 points and their first win. They rolled up a 14-3 record the rest of the way, ending up in the Super Bowl. There, despite John Madden loudly advising the Pats play for overtime, Brady engineered a game-winning Super-Bowl drive. Pats won 3 of the next 4 Super Bowls ... they've had winning records in all 13 years with Brady, every year double digit victories, save one 9-7 campaign.

Now, if Belichick is such a genius, then how did his record as a head coach change so radically, so suddenly, and so permanently - precisely then in Week 3?

I think that Bledsoe's injury allowed Belichick to avoid what surely would have been another losing season, his 7th in 8 years ... he was well on his way to utter failure as a head coach. Clincher here: Belichick scouted, drafted and coached Tom Brady for one full season, after which he chose to give Drew Bledsoe a monster contract extension, highest paid Patriot ever. For two games, anyway.

I'll grant you the Cassel 11-5 record in the Brady-less 2008 season is an anomaly that works against my point ... but look closely: That's the only season they didn't win the Division and make the playoffs (pardon the simpleton graphics, I just like to make them).





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Old 12-21-2013, 09:00 AM   #192
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Why don't you and TheRev seriously consider: Are your points based on Manning wearing orange now? And your dislike of Brady personally (a dislike I more than share)?

Saddest part of your argument in my opinion is heaping credit for the 1st Super Bowl on Adam Vinateri. My friend, Senor Brady (as his in-laws call him) engineered a truly spectacular game winning drive. 3 of 4 kickers would've made that kick ... 1 in ump-teen QBs would've given him the opportunity. John Madden was squawkin' the whole way, "BAM! Play for OT! BAM! Play for OT!"
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Old 12-21-2013, 09:04 AM   #193
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Why don't you and TheRev seriously consider: Are your points based on Manning wearing orange now? And your dislike of Brady personally (a dislike I more than share)?

Saddest part of your argument in my opinion is heaping credit for the 1st Super Bowl on Adam Vinateri. My friend, Senor Brady (as his in-laws call him) engineered a truly spectacular game winning drive. 3 of 4 kickers would've made that kick ... 1 in ump-teen QBs would've given him the opportunity. John Madden was squawkin' the whole way, "BAM! Play for OT! BAM! Play for OT!"
All true but I do personally believe the edge the Pats got from taping the Rams gave them just enough edge to hold on. They were so outmatched that they had to resort to that and it allowed them to win the first half. The Rams adjusted and were the second half showed that the Pats couldn't hang with them. The patriots got just enough of a lead in the first half to pull that game off.
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Old 12-21-2013, 09:06 AM   #194
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The starters from 97/98 would have gotten crushed in today's league. Especially by the more physical teams.
no, not at all. if anything, the game is less physical now than 15 years ago. And Steve Atwater.

Please find a team in today's NFL more physical than the 1997 Pittsburgh Steelers w/ the Bus, Dermontti (sp) Dawson-led OL, Kevin Greene, Levon Kirkland, Earl Holmes, Jason Gilden, etal. defense led by Dick LeBeau. Maybe the Seahawks or the 9ers? I'd still give the nod to the '97 Steelers, but it's close enough to where it doesn't matter in this argument. Denver beat that Pitt team en route to the Championship.


ETA: I think the 1998 Denver team is the most dominant team I have seen play. They would have been dominant in any era imo

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Old 12-21-2013, 09:09 AM   #195
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Why don't you and TheRev seriously consider: Are your points based on Manning wearing orange now? And your dislike of Brady personally (a dislike I more than share)?
Dude, I liked his post so I told him I did. I cannot stress enough how little I care about your opinion... claiming Brady made Belichick and not vice versa is laughable on every single level.

Yet, even though I vehemently disagree with you, I'm not discussing it with you because I don't care about you THAT MUCH.

Please take a page from my book and just stop talking to or about me.

I don't like you.

A LOT.
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Old 12-21-2013, 09:17 AM   #196
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Interesting that as the completeness of the team around him has lessened so has his playoff fortunes.
"Completeness of team has lessened," yeah, there's that. That, and David Tyree's magic helmet.

Tyree drops that ball ... and dere's NO DOUBT bout who be da GOAT ... and hid name bee Bray-deee. TYREE DROPS THE BALL AND BRADY IS GOAT, NO DISCUSSION! (In my opinion).

FOUR Super Bowl victories in SEVEN seasons as a starter, including 19-0. Started the run taking over an 0-2 team that'd been sub-500 three years running.

I know I know, Tyree CAUGHT the ball. But as "if's and but's" go, it's iffy-er and butt-ier than the Manning ifs and buts I've read. In here.



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Too many one and dones huh?
Yes, far too many. 7 one-and-dones in 11 playoff appearances, 5 on his home field against lower-seeded teams. Advanced in the playoffs just 4 times in 11 appearances. Am I speaking Greek ovah' heee-yah?

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Old 12-21-2013, 09:21 AM   #197
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Rev, I appreciate the time you took to clear that up ... but like I said, I already knew all that.

Instead of harranguing me, why not make an argument against mine? (tee hee)
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Old 12-21-2013, 10:04 AM   #198
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I love PM and hate Brady, but right now there is no sane argument that PM is the better QB all time. If PM wins the Super Bowl this year then maybe we can have a worthwhile discussion about it. Until then, it's a non-starter.
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Old 12-21-2013, 10:18 AM   #199
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"Completeness of team has lessened," yeah, there's that. That, and David Tyree's magic helmet.

THE ALLEGED GOAT LEADS HIS TEAM TO 18 WHOLE POINTS ... and dere's NO DOUBT bout who be da GOAT ... and hid name bee Bray-deee. TYREE DROPS THE BALL AND BRADY IS GOAT, NO DISCUSSION! (In my opinion
FIFY. Brady failed miserably in that Super Bowl, David Tyree is not an excuse. He lead the greatest offense in history to 14 measly points in the BIG GAME.

Actually, since the NFL ended their mulit-year orchestrated cheating program Brady has been pretty crappy in his playoff elimination games. It's strangely never really mentioned but from 2005-2012 a passer rating of 75.36% with 10 TD's and 10 INT's. That's big game dominance

Hell, even look at his performance during the Super Bowl runs -
Name:  FireShot Screen Capture #006 - 'Tom Brady Playoffs Game Log - Pro-Football-Reference_com' - www_.png
Views: 37
Size:  24.8 KB

The stuff of legends? Hardly, but try telling that to the intellectually simplician crowd of "MOAR SUPER BOWLS!!!!!"

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Old 12-21-2013, 11:03 AM   #200
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The Niners were not going to be denied, and nobody was beating them that year, but that's just flat out incorrect.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...s/1989/opp.htm

The 1989 defense was damn good.
Whoops, that was a descending order list, shouldn't have been using nfl.com anyway. Sorry it was 3am.

The list is all screwed up.

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