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Old 12-16-2013, 02:46 PM   #126
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McCaffrey > Decker

In every facet of the game.

If you think otherwise ....
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:01 PM   #127
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Now I'm actually spending time day-dreaming about this... that team would've been insane with Welker on it. Imagine the running lanes for TD against a permanently spread defense and the easy 3rd down conversions with Welker's moves and Elway's cannon.
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Old 12-16-2013, 05:54 PM   #128
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Best analysis yet, rep. I'm a huge Vasquez fan, can't believe I missed him ... but then realized for some reason I was comparing the 2012 team.

I didn't think anybody would actually debate Elway vs. Manning ... you're chasing your tail there. It's like debating Batman vs. Spiderman or Dr. Manhattan vs. The Silver Surfer, there is no answer.

Must disagree on DRC however. He might be comparable to Ray Crockett - even though Shannon Sharpe says his brother Sterling thought Crockett was about the best he faced, and was glad we signed him out of the NFC North. No, I've always felt Darrien Gordon was a very important and productive cog for those teams, maybe most underrated player. Had a special period of service - signed a two-year deal before the '97 season, started all 39 games those two years, then left. He finished 1997 with 2 sacks and 4 interceptions, one for a TD ... was 2nd in the league in punt returns, including 3 TDs.*
Darien Gordon was signed strictly for returns, but was solid at CB when Tory James went down early in 1997.

Well, except for that game Gordon put Yancey Effin Thigpen in the Pro Bowl!
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Old 12-16-2013, 06:04 PM   #129
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97 team would kick the ever living **** out of this team.
That was the best football team in the history of the game, IMO.
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Old 12-16-2013, 06:46 PM   #130
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That was the best football team in the history of the game, IMO.
i think the 98 team was better and, yes, I think they were the best team I've ever seen.
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Old 12-16-2013, 08:52 PM   #131
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I'll take every member of the 97 team. They did win their superbowl.

Different game then, big play D, good O, had some nasty, 97 team took care of biz. Eddie Mac would dominate today's game just as much as he did then if not more but DT would get beat up and flail with all the contact that was allowed then. Manning ain't tucking a ball and running head first for the goal line.
This is true. I don't think our wr this yr are as tough as EMac and Rod. Maybe after they get paid but not now

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Old 12-16-2013, 09:43 PM   #132
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When people talk about Smith/McCaffrey vs. Thomas/Decker, people say that Smith and McCaffrey were better blockers. That is true, but to me it goes beyond that. They were better receivers too. Now if we're talking about Smith and McCaffrey in '97, and not their overall careers, then Thomas/Decker have an argument. Like it was pointed out earlier, '97 was Smith's first year as a starter. He really developed into a very good receiver after that, and better than anything that Thomas and Decker have been.

When it comes to route running, McCaffrey was one of the best route runners that I have ever seen. That, along with a tall frame and great hands, made him a very good receiver.
This thread has changed to an overall careers debate, but you do have a point. If Thomas played on that team going in as a 4 year starter with a 1400 yard season under his belt, then Rod Smith and Eddie Mac are battling for the #2 spot.
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Old 12-16-2013, 09:52 PM   #133
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Harrison and Wayne are probably going to be in the HOF. Elway was lucky to have a pro bowler.
Shannon Sharpe, no?

Listen I love Elway, in fact I'm only a Broncos fan because I grew up idolizing him. I love that we get to have this discussion but Peyton is on pace to break both the yards and TDs record, IN THE SAME SEASON. A QB has never had a better season, ever. Period. Give me 2013 Manning all day.
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Old 12-16-2013, 10:02 PM   #134
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I guarantee you Elway never would have thrown an INT at home to end the Ravens playoff game. Elway thrives under pressure. Manning folds under pressure.

Manning is not willing or able to improvise if a play takes 3+ seconds to develop.
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Old 12-16-2013, 10:08 PM   #135
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Shannon Sharpe, no?

Listen I love Elway, in fact I'm only a Broncos fan because I grew up idolizing him. I love that we get to have this discussion but Peyton is on pace to break both the yards and TDs record, IN THE SAME SEASON. A QB has never had a better season, ever. Period. Give me 2013 Manning all day.
You just have to understand, it's a totally different league with so vastly different rules. Really, I can't imagine Dan Marino in this day and time....it would be absolutely crazy the numbers he would put up.

That being said...Elway/Manning are my two favorite QB's. So much so that I purchased a Tennessee signed helmet of Manning when he was still in college (97).

What's really interesting though...go look at the stats....yes, Manning's TD's are impressive....but Brees is only 300yds behind Manning in yards. Heck...he could catch manning if he has a couple poor throwing games. So, although it pisses me off that more people aren't talking about the numbers that Manning is putting up...the way they did with Brady in 2007...it's just not all that remarkable at this point in time. I mean we're looking at 10+ 4,000yd passers!
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Old 12-16-2013, 10:13 PM   #136
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I guarantee you Elway never would have thrown an INT at home to end the Ravens playoff game. Elway thrives under pressure. Manning folds under pressure.

Manning is not willing or able to improvise if a play takes 3+ seconds to develop.
Hey, I'm not totally disagreeing with you...but, when you put things in perspective...Manning has thrown 47 TD's and only 10 int's. So, really....go back and look at Elway's stats...and think about it.

Elway didn't really do much at all...until the game was on the line and then he went for it.

With Manning....they need to turn him lose as well....quit trying to have him save games...allow him to go win them.

And, last week...the guy hit Manning's arm...same thing could happen to any QB.
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Old 12-16-2013, 10:15 PM   #137
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I guarantee you Elway never would have thrown an INT at home to end the Ravens playoff game. Elway thrives under pressure. Manning folds under pressure.

Manning is not willing or able to improvise if a play takes 3+ seconds to develop.
and in those 3 seconds Manning is a million times better than Elway was. no doubt about it.

if you would take a 37 year old Elway over a 37 year old Manning you are an idiot. period.
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Old 12-16-2013, 10:21 PM   #138
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Shannon Sharpe, no?

Listen I love Elway, in fact I'm only a Broncos fan because I grew up idolizing him. I love that we get to have this discussion but Peyton is on pace to break both the yards and TDs record, IN THE SAME SEASON. A QB has never had a better season, ever. Period. Give me 2013 Manning all day.
Elway got us to 5 SB's. Manning has been to 2. I love Manning and his numbers are neat but, I want SB appearances MORE.

If Elway was same age as Manning now with this team. I'd expect to be in SB this year. With Manning I hope we get past our 1st playoff game,

I'd pick Elway over Manning 10 out of 10 times.

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Old 12-16-2013, 10:25 PM   #139
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And, last week...the guy hit Manning's arm...same thing could happen to any QB.
Stat's are for losers. Last week Elway would have went on a naked bootleg and picked up a 1st down. All Manning could do is take two steps to the left and try to throw it into double coverage with a guy in his face.

In tight playoff circumstances, chucking up a floater or an RB checkdown are Manning's only options.

Manning is the best ever at hitting the open man in less than 3 seconds. Elway owns everything else.

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Old 12-16-2013, 10:44 PM   #140
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Who do the '13 Broncos have who is willing and able to do ANYTHING to pick up a 1st down?

No matter if it's snowing, 0 degrees, Richard Sherman is hanging all over the WR, half the guys are hurt, you're down 7, there's less than 2 minutes left in the 4th quarter, it's 3rd and long, you have a million yards to go to score a TD, and the entire Defensive Line is breathing down your neck?

Who's going to buy some time, make that block, catch the ball, get some yards, stuff the run, knock down the ball, force a fumble, get a pick, make a play...to win the game?

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Old 12-16-2013, 10:58 PM   #141
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Shannon Sharpe, no?

Listen I love Elway, in fact I'm only a Broncos fan because I grew up idolizing him. I love that we get to have this discussion but Peyton is on pace to break both the yards and TDs record, IN THE SAME SEASON. A QB has never had a better season, ever. Period. Give me 2013 Manning all day.
Sorry but your post matches your avatar. It's all about context. Put a veteran Elway on today's team and he'd be just as good.

And I'm not even getting into clutch play.
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Old 12-16-2013, 11:03 PM   #142
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Elway got us to 5 SB's. Manning has been to 2. I love Manning and his numbers are neat but, I want SB appearances MORE.

If Elway was same age as Manning now with this team. I'd expect to be in SB this year. With Manning I hope we get past our 1st playoff game,

I'd pick Elway over Manning 10 out of 10 times.
Well that's a hard argument to drive when based on the posts from this board (and not that I don't agree) that 2 of those teams were some of the most complete teams ever assembled. I absolutely hate the SB argument when comparing individuals, this isn't ****ing tennis it's a team game.
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Old 12-17-2013, 12:06 AM   #143
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Stat's are for losers. Last week Elway would have went on a naked bootleg and picked up a 1st down. All Manning could do is take two steps to the left and try to throw it into double coverage with a guy in his face.

In tight playoff circumstances, chucking up a floater or an RB checkdown are Manning's only options.

Manning is the best ever at hitting the open man in less than 3 seconds. Elway owns everything else.
You're making **** up. Manning can't run, so he didn't run. Elway could run. We know that. We also know that as a QB you sometimes have to throw the ball, and when you throw the ball you sometimes get hit in the arm or have it tipped. Fact of life.

The difference? If Elway does that, people acknowledge that it is a fact of life because they have a specific narrative of Elway as a winner that they want to spin, whereas when Manning does it the play is no longer a fact of life, it is a condemnation of Manning's ability to win a football game. Because you want to spin a narrative.

So we can play that game. Elway would have avoided that interception by running a naked boot. Ok. How about all those times Manning checks into the correct play and throws a perfect strike to a guy for a TD? I guess we have to take those plays away from Elway, because he obviously would have stayed with the original call and thrown an incomplete pass--or an interception!--to a covered receiver. Peyton's greatness is so routine that you take it for granted.

Fact: Peyton Manning has won more games in the NFL than John Elway. He has more fourth quarter comebacks than John Elway.

Peyton has reached that rarest of levels regarding the public perception of an athlete where their greatness is so expected that it is no longer worthy of praise, and thus the only thing worth talking about is their failings. OF active athletes, Peyton and Lebron are the only ones in this group.

Peyton Manning is excoriated any time his team loses, but no one will ever lay any blame on Elway for 55-10. The Broncos lost the 91 AFC Championship game because Steve Sewell fumbled, not because the Elway (and, admittedly, Kubiak) led offense scored 7 total points. Rahim Moore failing to play prevent counts against Manning, while Ernest Byner fumbling on the 1 counts for Elway. The Drive is mythic, Manning coming back down 18 against the Pats in the 06 AFC Championship game is noted mainly for being that rare instance in which Manning didn't quite **** it up.

The reason Manning losing is such a story is because we are basically shocked when it happens, because we are trained by his routine greatness to expect him to win every game. The Manning Broncos going 13-3 is a horror show, a disaster of a season that proves Manning can't win, while an 11-5 Elway season is a testament to the greatness and ingenuity of a QB who, while impressive, is just not quite as good.
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Old 12-17-2013, 01:01 AM   #144
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I just have one thing to say about the legacies of these two greats.

John Elway had some pretty tough Superbowls but generally, the great defenses he played in his era feared him, especially in the playoffs (everybody knows about the browns & the drive, the drive 2, etc.). Somehow teams would be up against Denver, or be the favorite, but always worried about Elway pulling out a victory by extending plays (that he had no business making) with his talent.

Peyton Manning is far more prolific in the regular season than any other quarterback ever. However, Peyton's one knock has been that every post season there always seems to be a defense that stymies him (patriots twice, steelers, jaguars in his own division, baltimore last year, Chargers before that).

It's to the point that sometimes people expect Manning to fail in the post season vs. defenses that can pressure him and move him around the pocket whereas John Elway was always expected to somehow come up with huge upsets in crazy games where his offensive line is overmatched and his receivers are jammed. Remember, Denver was not supposed to win against the Packers, the cheeseheads were stacked (for crying out loud they had the greatest defensive player ever still in his prime), but he helicoptered his way into the story books.

Peyton Manning always seems to be on the wrong end of upsets, and that's why in this era where he was often considered the best QB with the best team in the playoffs again and again and again, he somehow kept losing to teams he was supposed to beat.

I wouldn't touch the 97 lineup, maybe Von and Clady can get squeezed in there, but thats it... Seriously, Elway and the 1997 Broncos beat Brett Farve and Reggie White, and we are here worried about how on earth the Broncos of today can compete with Russell Wilson and Richard Sherman?

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Old 12-17-2013, 01:38 AM   #145
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Who do the '13 Broncos have who is willing and able to do ANYTHING to pick up a 1st down?

No matter if it's snowing, 0 degrees, Richard Sherman is hanging all over the WR, half the guys are hurt, you're down 7, there's less than 2 minutes left in the 4th quarter, it's 3rd and long, you have a million yards to go to score a TD, and the entire Defensive Line is breathing down your neck?

Who's going to buy some time, make that block, catch the ball, get some yards, stuff the run, knock down the ball, force a fumble, get a pick, make a play...to win the game?
There's probably only 1 on offense and he's got 2 concussions already this season fighting for that extra yard.
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Old 12-17-2013, 06:25 AM   #146
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Who do the '13 Broncos have who is willing and able to do ANYTHING to pick up a 1st down?

No matter if it's snowing, 0 degrees, Richard Sherman is hanging all over the WR, half the guys are hurt, you're down 7, there's less than 2 minutes left in the 4th quarter, it's 3rd and long, you have a million yards to go to score a TD, and the entire Defensive Line is breathing down your neck?

Who's going to buy some time, make that block, catch the ball, get some yards, stuff the run, knock down the ball, force a fumble, get a pick, make a play...to win the game?
Knowhson's the only guy I can think of on the current team, maybe Julius Thomas (and no way anyone takes either of them over TD and Sharpe in the context of this thread). That 97 team is as stacked and good as 98 - a team that I would choose to take on any team in the history of the game.
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Old 12-17-2013, 06:29 AM   #147
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Stat's are for losers. Last week Elway would have went on a naked bootleg and picked up a 1st down. All Manning could do is take two steps to the left and try to throw it into double coverage with a guy in his face.

In tight playoff circumstances, chucking up a floater or an RB checkdown are Manning's only options.

Manning is the best ever at hitting the open man in less than 3 seconds. Elway owns everything else.
You make it sound like we should start osweiler. You alternate between really smart takes and really stupid ones more than anyone on this board
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Old 12-17-2013, 06:35 AM   #148
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I love elway, I think it's a Toss up. But the 97 team was tons more complete. If Peyton had the game elway had I'm the 97 Super Bowl, we lose by 20
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Old 12-17-2013, 07:18 AM   #149
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You're making **** up. Manning can't run, so he didn't run. Elway could run. We know that. We also know that as a QB you sometimes have to throw the ball, and when you throw the ball you sometimes get hit in the arm or have it tipped. Fact of life.

The difference? If Elway does that, people acknowledge that it is a fact of life because they have a specific narrative of Elway as a winner that they want to spin, whereas when Manning does it the play is no longer a fact of life, it is a condemnation of Manning's ability to win a football game. Because you want to spin a narrative.

So we can play that game. Elway would have avoided that interception by running a naked boot. Ok. How about all those times Manning checks into the correct play and throws a perfect strike to a guy for a TD? I guess we have to take those plays away from Elway, because he obviously would have stayed with the original call and thrown an incomplete pass--or an interception!--to a covered receiver. Peyton's greatness is so routine that you take it for granted.

Fact: Peyton Manning has won more games in the NFL than John Elway. He has more fourth quarter comebacks than John Elway.

Peyton has reached that rarest of levels regarding the public perception of an athlete where their greatness is so expected that it is no longer worthy of praise, and thus the only thing worth talking about is their failings. OF active athletes, Peyton and Lebron are the only ones in this group.

Peyton Manning is excoriated any time his team loses, but no one will ever lay any blame on Elway for 55-10. The Broncos lost the 91 AFC Championship game because Steve Sewell fumbled, not because the Elway (and, admittedly, Kubiak) led offense scored 7 total points. Rahim Moore failing to play prevent counts against Manning, while Ernest Byner fumbling on the 1 counts for Elway. The Drive is mythic, Manning coming back down 18 against the Pats in the 06 AFC Championship game is noted mainly for being that rare instance in which Manning didn't quite **** it up.

The reason Manning losing is such a story is because we are basically shocked when it happens, because we are trained by his routine greatness to expect him to win every game. The Manning Broncos going 13-3 is a horror show, a disaster of a season that proves Manning can't win, while an 11-5 Elway season is a testament to the greatness and ingenuity of a QB who, while impressive, is just not quite as good.
Beautifully written, and exactly spot on.
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Old 12-18-2013, 12:06 AM   #150
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John Elway Playoff Record: 14 wins, 7 losses
Peyton Manning Playoff Record: 9 wins, 11 losses

Against the Ravens in the Broncos playoff loss, Peyton Manning had 2 INT's (one of them a pick 6), and a fumble. All 3 of Manning's turnovers were in Denver territory, and the last INT ended the game. Did Manning play pretty well in that game? Yes. Was he great? No.

I know this doesn't fit your narrative. I know your mythic perception of Manning is deduced from gaudy numbers, and NFL regular season records. I do think Manning is the best ever at hitting the open man in less than 3 seconds. He's a great QB, one of the best of all time.

If Manning lost in the 1st round of the playoffs this year, and retired. Do you think he would generally be regarded as better than Elway? I don't.

I hope Peyton Manning can become the undisputed best QB of all time while winning a Superbowl for the Broncos. Come back to me when Peyton Manning wins a couple playoff game here in Denver. Until then, I'm going with Elway.
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