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Old 12-05-2013, 09:37 PM   #51
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Mandella also would never denounce Mugabe. I guess oppression was only worth going to prison for if it was whites doing it.
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Old 12-06-2013, 04:15 AM   #52
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$10k US doesn't go as far as it used to, thanks to your boy GWB.

But hey, if you can spring for 4 trips back to the US per year as well as finding one of us a job there, I'll take it. PM me for my PO Box #.

In case you're wondering, my area of expertise is food service and management, my wife's is political science.
Keep that "I'm not a liberal" facade going Obama apologist. You're sure fooling everyone with that one
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Old 12-06-2013, 04:17 AM   #53
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RIP Mandela. Like with anybody I guess, as others have pointed out, he wasn't as bad as some think or as great as some think either.
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Old 12-06-2013, 06:51 AM   #54
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Keep that "I'm not a liberal" facade going Obama apologist. You're sure fooling everyone with that one
You've said this before, and once again I'm making my WTF face.

If you can quote me where I said I'm not a liberal, I'll give you a cookie.

Until then, cork it, dip****.

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Old 12-06-2013, 07:15 AM   #55
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i had no idea he was a 300 hitter:

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Old 12-06-2013, 07:57 AM   #56
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i had no idea he was a 300 hitter:

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Old 12-06-2013, 01:45 PM   #57
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Let's not forget that in the not too distant past, American conservatives called Nelson Mandela a terrorist and tried to increase ties to the apartheid South African government.

The Conservative Movement’s Long-Time Hate Affair With Nelson Mandela

http://www.truth-out.org/buzzflash/c...nelson-mandela
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Old 12-06-2013, 01:47 PM   #58
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Let's not forget that in the not too distant past, American conservatives called Nelson Mandela a terrorist and tried to increase ties to the apartheid South African government.

The Conservative Movement’s Long-Time Hate Affair With Nelson Mandela

http://www.truth-out.org/buzzflash/c...nelson-mandela
Well that, and for people like txtebow and barry, you know...he's also black.
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Old 12-06-2013, 02:34 PM   #59
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The Right Wing’s Campaign To Discredit And Undermine Mandela, In One Timeline

By Igor Volsky and Zack Beauchamp on December 6, 2013 at 11:04 am

The world is celebrating Nelson Mandela as a selfless visionary who led his country out of the grips of apartheid into democracy and freedom. But some of the very people lavishing praise on South Africa’s first black president worked tirelessly to undermine his cause and portray the African National Congress he lead as pawns of the Soviet Union.

In fact, American conservatives have long been willing to overlook South Africa’s racist apartheid government in service of fighting communism abroad. Below is a short history, and some explanation, of how conservatives approached Mandela with the hostility they did:

1960s

National Review predicts end of white rule would result in “the collapse of civilization.”


After Mandela was sentenced to life in prison, the magazine observed that “The South African courts have sentenced a batch of admitted terrorists to life in the penitentiary, and you would think the court had just finished barbecuing St. Joan, to hear the howls from the Liberal press.” By March of the following year, conservative Russell Kirk argued in the pages of the magazine that democracy in South Africa “would bring anarchy and the collapse of civilization” and the government “would be domination by witch doctors (still numerous and powerful) and reckless demagogues.”


1980s

Reagan described apartheid South Africa as a “good country.”


After President Jimmy Carter imposed sanctions on South Africa Reagan reversed course, labeling the African National Congress a terrorist organization. As he explained to CBS’ Walter Cronkite in 1981, the United States should support the South Africa regime because it is “a country that has stood by us in every war we’ve ever fought, a country that, strategically, is essential to the free world in its production of minerals.” In 1985, he told an interviewer: “They have eliminated the segregation that we once had in our own country — the type of thing where hotels and restaurants and places of entertainment and so forth were segregated — that has all been eliminated.” He later walked back the comment. As late as 1988, Reagan called apartheid “a tribal policy more than…a racial policy.”

Jerry Falwell urges supporters to oppose sanctions.


The late Jerry Falwell urged “supporters to write their congressmen and senators to tell them to oppose sanctions against the apartheid regime.” “The liberal media has for too long suppressed the other side of the story in South Africa,” he said. “It is very important that we stay close enough to South Africa so that it does not fall prey to the clutches of Communism.”

180 House members opposed free Mandela resolution.


In 1986, 145 Republicans and 45 Democrats voted down a none-binding House resolution urging the Government of South Africa to indicate its willingness to negotiate with the black majority by granting unconditional freedom to Nelson Mandela, recognizing the African National Congress; and establishing a framework for political talks. This included Dick Cheney, John McCain, Newt Gingrich, Dan Coats, Pat Roberts, Joe Barton. Asked in 2000 if he regretted the vote, Cheney said he did not adding, “The ANC was then viewed as a terrorist organization.”

20 Senators and 83 House members oppose sanctions.


The 1986 bill cut virtually “all U.S. economic ties with South Africa, requiring American companies to cease operating there within 180 days.” Lawmakers had to override Reagan’s veto. Sens. Thad Conrad, Orrin Hatch and Reps. Hal Rogers, Joe Barton, and Howard Coble all voted against imposing sanctions on the regime.

Jack Abramoff leads think tank dedicated to tearing down Mandela.


In 1986, the South African government helped fund and establish The International Freedom Foundation (IFF), a conservative think tank designed to “reverse the apartheid regime’s pariah status in Western political circles” and “portray the ANC as a tool of Soviet communism, thus undercutting the movement’s growing international acceptance as the government-in-waiting of a future multiracial South Africa.” The Washington branch of the IFF listed, among others, Senator Jesse Helms, James Inhofe as advisers. The lobbyist Jack Abramoff led the organization.

U.S. Senator testified in support of the apartheid government.


“In the late 1980s and early ’90s, after returning from his Mormon mission to South Africa,” Sen. Jeff Flake (R-AZ) lobbied for South African interests and in 1987, “testified before the Utah State Senate in support of a resolution expressing support for the government of South Africa while racial segregation laws were enforced — largely to support U.S. mining interests in the region.”

Now, it would be unfair to say conservatism spoke univocally in condemnation of Mandela. A group of upstart Republicans in the mid-80s, led by Reps. Vin Weber, Robert Walker, and Newt Gingrich pushed hard for the United States to take a more critical stance on apartheid.

But this group was bucking the conservative mainstream at the time. “South Africa has been able to depend on conservatives in the United States . . . to treat them with benign neglect,” Weber said. That has a lot to do with the enduring conservative hostility towards rapid change. Conservatives see broad challenges, even to oppressive systems, as dangerous “revolutionary” change, whereas slower “evolutionary” tweaks in a better direction would be preferable.

Reagan’s South Africa point man, Chester A. Crocker, made this revolutionary/evolutionary binary into one of his three main principles for thinking about South Africa policy. “The circumstances in South Africa do not justify giving up on the hopes for evolutionary change (as distinguished from a revolutionary cataclysm),” he wrote in a famous Foreign Affairs essay. Many in the West, Crocker believed, held “a mistaken assumption that American and South African clocks are synchronized-that our impatience signifies the imminence of the revolution.”

It was Crocker, of course, who was mistaken, writing only about a decade before Mandela was freed from prison. But this skepticism about the possibility and desirability of radical change (Crocker seemed to think any dissolution of the apartheid government would necessarily be in part a violent one), together with the obvious cultural affinity that mainstream conservatives felt with Westernized Afrikaner elites, made conservatives distinctly inclined to view Mandela’s calls for political transformation with jaded eyes.

1990s



Heritage Foundation says Mandela is no “freedom fighter.” “Americans nevertheless have reasons to be skeptical of Mandela,” the foundation warned as he planned to visit the United States in 1990. “First, Nelson Mandela is not a freedom fighter. He repeatedly has supported terrorism. Since Mandela’s release from prison and his subsequent refusal to renounce violence, the Marxist-dominated ANC has launched terrorism and violence against civilians, claiming several hundred lives.”

Conservative think tank links Mandela to communists. “When Mandela made his first visit to the United States in 1990, following his release from prison, the IFF placed advertisements in local papers designed to dampen public enthusiasm for Mandela,” Newsday reported. “One ad in the Miami Herald portrayed Mandela as an ally and defender of Cuba’s Fidel Castro. The city’s large Cuban community was so agitated that a ceremony to present Mandela with keys to the city was scrapped.

2000s

National Review labels Mandela a “communist” for opposing the Iraq war.

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/...24-638x352.png

“[Mandela's] vicious anti-Americanism and support for Saddam Hussein should come as no surprise, given his long-standing dedication to Communism and praise for terrorists. The world finally saw that his wife Winnie, rather than being a saintly freedom-fighter, was a murderous thug.”

This positioning of Mandela as being on the wrong side of a divide between “friends” and “enemies” — once communism, in the 2000s Saddam and terrorism — is the most important ideological lesson to learn from this history of hostility to Mandela. Conservatives have a deep tendency to judge foreign conflicts principally by the proximity of each side to the enemy du jour.

The treatment of South Africa in Jeane Kirkpatrick’s famous “Dictatorships and Double Standards” essay, where she argued that authoritarian anti-Communist states were more amenable to transition to democracy than revolutionary socialist governments, exemplifies this point nicely. She listed Jimmy Carter’s more confrontational South Africa policy as an example of the Carter Administration taking “at face value the claim of revolutionary groups to represent ‘popular’ aspirations and ‘progressive’ forces–regardless of the ties of these revolutionaries to the Soviet Union.”

Modern conservatives explaining the movement’s Mandela position in the past 12 hours have repeatedly employed Kirkpatrick-style to argue that conservative positions were, at the time, reasonable. “In retrospect, it’s easy to think of Mandela as the grandfatherly statesman,” Matt Lewis writes, “but the Soviet Union posed an existential threat; it’s not like nuclear weapons weren’t aimed at us. Such a thing has a way of focusing your priorities. In that milieu, one can understand why the U.S. would have been very cautious about anyone who had even ‘dabbled’ in Communism.” Deroy Murdock describes the view at the time as “Nelson Mandela was just another Fidel Castro or a Pol Pot, itching to slip from behind bars, savage his country, and surf atop the bones of his victims.”

Now, both Lewis and Murdock readily admit that this view was in hindsight mistaken. But the overemphasis on the friend/enemy distinction that blinded conservatives to the justness of the ANC’s cause has hardly gone away.
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Old 12-06-2013, 02:58 PM   #60
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Government by witch doctors? Where have I heard that before, and what is it with republicans and witch doctor references where black people are concerned?
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Old 12-06-2013, 03:22 PM   #61
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It was only a matter of time until TX came in here and ruined it.
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Old 12-06-2013, 03:37 PM   #62
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Keep that "I'm not a liberal" facade going Obama apologist. You're sure fooling everyone with that one


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Old 12-06-2013, 03:55 PM   #63
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The impotent governing abilities of ANC rule is mirrored on smaller scales in Detroit, Philly, DC and Baltimore......

and in another generation or 2, it'll be the same fate the we see for this entire once great nation.......
If the ANC is impotent it's because when the Apartheid regime agreed to cede political power -- the ANC gave the white rulers a concession -- which turned out to be major -- whites would remain in control of the economy.

This explains why the ANC has been unable to deliver a better life for the mass of blacks. The poverty has continued as under Apartheid -- which explains the anger of many blacks and the violence directed at whites.

The solution is economic justice -- but this is easier said than done. It will take generations.

MHG
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Old 12-06-2013, 04:58 PM   #64
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Let's not forget that in the not too distant past, American conservatives called Nelson Mandela a terrorist and tried to increase ties to the apartheid South African government.

The Conservative Movement’s Long-Time Hate Affair With Nelson Mandela

http://www.truth-out.org/buzzflash/c...nelson-mandela
Well, let's not forget about that whole ordering bombings that targeted civilians just as much as military/political figures. In my mind that made him a terrorist back then.
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Old 12-06-2013, 05:03 PM   #65
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I know I'm going to get blasted for this but I was always disappointed in Mandela. He refused to criticize Cuba's human rights record because Fidel Castro was a main benefactor of the ANC. Apparently racial oppression was a bad thing according to Mandela but political oppression was A-OK.
Thank you, don't forget he was close buddies with Qaddafi. The guy never apologized or even showed remorse for the killings that he ordered.
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Old 12-06-2013, 05:05 PM   #66
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If the ANC is impotent it's because when the Apartheid regime agreed to cede political power -- the ANC gave the white rulers a concession -- which turned out to be major -- whites would remain in control of the economy.

This explains why the ANC has been unable to deliver a better life for the mass of blacks. The poverty has continued as under Apartheid -- which explains the anger of many blacks and the violence directed at whites.

The solution is economic justice -- but this is easier said than done. It will take generations.

MHG
The ANC had the ability to drop billions on weapons that they couldn't afford and definitely did not need in the quantity they purchased. So I wouldn't say they were exactly impotent.
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Old 12-06-2013, 05:30 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN View Post
The Right Wing’s Campaign To Discredit And Undermine Mandela, In One Timeline

By Igor Volsky and Zack Beauchamp on December 6, 2013 at 11:04 am

The world is celebrating Nelson Mandela as a selfless visionary who led his country out of the grips of apartheid into democracy and freedom. But some of the very people lavishing praise on South Africa’s first black president worked tirelessly to undermine his cause and portray the African National Congress he lead as pawns of the Soviet Union.

In fact, American conservatives have long been willing to overlook South Africa’s racist apartheid government in service of fighting communism abroad. Below is a short history, and some explanation, of how conservatives approached Mandela with the hostility they did:

1960s

National Review predicts end of white rule would result in “the collapse of civilization.”


After Mandela was sentenced to life in prison, the magazine observed that “The South African courts have sentenced a batch of admitted terrorists to life in the penitentiary, and you would think the court had just finished barbecuing St. Joan, to hear the howls from the Liberal press.” By March of the following year, conservative Russell Kirk argued in the pages of the magazine that democracy in South Africa “would bring anarchy and the collapse of civilization” and the government “would be domination by witch doctors (still numerous and powerful) and reckless demagogues.”


1980s

Reagan described apartheid South Africa as a “good country.”


After President Jimmy Carter imposed sanctions on South Africa Reagan reversed course, labeling the African National Congress a terrorist organization. As he explained to CBS’ Walter Cronkite in 1981, the United States should support the South Africa regime because it is “a country that has stood by us in every war we’ve ever fought, a country that, strategically, is essential to the free world in its production of minerals.” In 1985, he told an interviewer: “They have eliminated the segregation that we once had in our own country — the type of thing where hotels and restaurants and places of entertainment and so forth were segregated — that has all been eliminated.” He later walked back the comment. As late as 1988, Reagan called apartheid “a tribal policy more than…a racial policy.”

Jerry Falwell urges supporters to oppose sanctions.


The late Jerry Falwell urged “supporters to write their congressmen and senators to tell them to oppose sanctions against the apartheid regime.” “The liberal media has for too long suppressed the other side of the story in South Africa,” he said. “It is very important that we stay close enough to South Africa so that it does not fall prey to the clutches of Communism.”

180 House members opposed free Mandela resolution.


In 1986, 145 Republicans and 45 Democrats voted down a none-binding House resolution urging the Government of South Africa to indicate its willingness to negotiate with the black majority by granting unconditional freedom to Nelson Mandela, recognizing the African National Congress; and establishing a framework for political talks. This included Dick Cheney, John McCain, Newt Gingrich, Dan Coats, Pat Roberts, Joe Barton. Asked in 2000 if he regretted the vote, Cheney said he did not adding, “The ANC was then viewed as a terrorist organization.”

20 Senators and 83 House members oppose sanctions.


The 1986 bill cut virtually “all U.S. economic ties with South Africa, requiring American companies to cease operating there within 180 days.” Lawmakers had to override Reagan’s veto. Sens. Thad Conrad, Orrin Hatch and Reps. Hal Rogers, Joe Barton, and Howard Coble all voted against imposing sanctions on the regime.

Jack Abramoff leads think tank dedicated to tearing down Mandela.


In 1986, the South African government helped fund and establish The International Freedom Foundation (IFF), a conservative think tank designed to “reverse the apartheid regime’s pariah status in Western political circles” and “portray the ANC as a tool of Soviet communism, thus undercutting the movement’s growing international acceptance as the government-in-waiting of a future multiracial South Africa.” The Washington branch of the IFF listed, among others, Senator Jesse Helms, James Inhofe as advisers. The lobbyist Jack Abramoff led the organization.

U.S. Senator testified in support of the apartheid government.


“In the late 1980s and early ’90s, after returning from his Mormon mission to South Africa,” Sen. Jeff Flake (R-AZ) lobbied for South African interests and in 1987, “testified before the Utah State Senate in support of a resolution expressing support for the government of South Africa while racial segregation laws were enforced — largely to support U.S. mining interests in the region.”

Now, it would be unfair to say conservatism spoke univocally in condemnation of Mandela. A group of upstart Republicans in the mid-80s, led by Reps. Vin Weber, Robert Walker, and Newt Gingrich pushed hard for the United States to take a more critical stance on apartheid.

But this group was bucking the conservative mainstream at the time. “South Africa has been able to depend on conservatives in the United States . . . to treat them with benign neglect,” Weber said. That has a lot to do with the enduring conservative hostility towards rapid change. Conservatives see broad challenges, even to oppressive systems, as dangerous “revolutionary” change, whereas slower “evolutionary” tweaks in a better direction would be preferable.

Reagan’s South Africa point man, Chester A. Crocker, made this revolutionary/evolutionary binary into one of his three main principles for thinking about South Africa policy. “The circumstances in South Africa do not justify giving up on the hopes for evolutionary change (as distinguished from a revolutionary cataclysm),” he wrote in a famous Foreign Affairs essay. Many in the West, Crocker believed, held “a mistaken assumption that American and South African clocks are synchronized-that our impatience signifies the imminence of the revolution.”

It was Crocker, of course, who was mistaken, writing only about a decade before Mandela was freed from prison. But this skepticism about the possibility and desirability of radical change (Crocker seemed to think any dissolution of the apartheid government would necessarily be in part a violent one), together with the obvious cultural affinity that mainstream conservatives felt with Westernized Afrikaner elites, made conservatives distinctly inclined to view Mandela’s calls for political transformation with jaded eyes.

1990s



Heritage Foundation says Mandela is no “freedom fighter.” “Americans nevertheless have reasons to be skeptical of Mandela,” the foundation warned as he planned to visit the United States in 1990. “First, Nelson Mandela is not a freedom fighter. He repeatedly has supported terrorism. Since Mandela’s release from prison and his subsequent refusal to renounce violence, the Marxist-dominated ANC has launched terrorism and violence against civilians, claiming several hundred lives.”

Conservative think tank links Mandela to communists. “When Mandela made his first visit to the United States in 1990, following his release from prison, the IFF placed advertisements in local papers designed to dampen public enthusiasm for Mandela,” Newsday reported. “One ad in the Miami Herald portrayed Mandela as an ally and defender of Cuba’s Fidel Castro. The city’s large Cuban community was so agitated that a ceremony to present Mandela with keys to the city was scrapped.

2000s

National Review labels Mandela a “communist” for opposing the Iraq war.

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/...24-638x352.png

“[Mandela's] vicious anti-Americanism and support for Saddam Hussein should come as no surprise, given his long-standing dedication to Communism and praise for terrorists. The world finally saw that his wife Winnie, rather than being a saintly freedom-fighter, was a murderous thug.”

This positioning of Mandela as being on the wrong side of a divide between “friends” and “enemies” — once communism, in the 2000s Saddam and terrorism — is the most important ideological lesson to learn from this history of hostility to Mandela. Conservatives have a deep tendency to judge foreign conflicts principally by the proximity of each side to the enemy du jour.

The treatment of South Africa in Jeane Kirkpatrick’s famous “Dictatorships and Double Standards” essay, where she argued that authoritarian anti-Communist states were more amenable to transition to democracy than revolutionary socialist governments, exemplifies this point nicely. She listed Jimmy Carter’s more confrontational South Africa policy as an example of the Carter Administration taking “at face value the claim of revolutionary groups to represent ‘popular’ aspirations and ‘progressive’ forces–regardless of the ties of these revolutionaries to the Soviet Union.”

Modern conservatives explaining the movement’s Mandela position in the past 12 hours have repeatedly employed Kirkpatrick-style to argue that conservative positions were, at the time, reasonable. “In retrospect, it’s easy to think of Mandela as the grandfatherly statesman,” Matt Lewis writes, “but the Soviet Union posed an existential threat; it’s not like nuclear weapons weren’t aimed at us. Such a thing has a way of focusing your priorities. In that milieu, one can understand why the U.S. would have been very cautious about anyone who had even ‘dabbled’ in Communism.” Deroy Murdock describes the view at the time as “Nelson Mandela was just another Fidel Castro or a Pol Pot, itching to slip from behind bars, savage his country, and surf atop the bones of his victims.”

Now, both Lewis and Murdock readily admit that this view was in hindsight mistaken. But the overemphasis on the friend/enemy distinction that blinded conservatives to the justness of the ANC’s cause has hardly gone away.
so what you're saying is that as usual, conservatives like johnny here are FOS.
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Old 12-06-2013, 06:55 PM   #68
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so what you're saying is that as usual, conservatives like johnny here are FOS.
What did I say that was not factual? The guy supported regimes with crappy human rights records and led an organization which didn't discriminate against against civilians or political/military targets. Sorry that I'm not tearing my shirt and wearing all black in mourning.
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Old 12-06-2013, 07:47 PM   #69
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What did I say that was not factual? The guy supported regimes with crappy human rights records and led an organization which didn't discriminate against against civilians or political/military targets. Sorry that I'm not tearing my shirt and wearing all black in mourning.
what have you said is factual? prove your point.
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Old 12-06-2013, 08:22 PM   #70
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Seriously? You call me a liar then throw the onus onto me? Fine, I'll play:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe

http://thebackbencher.co.uk/3-things...elson-mandela/

http://americanvision.org/9813/missi....tRVCU5kz.dpbs

I could care less if he was a communist or socialist. The group he co-founded, for whatever good reasons there were which I don't disagree, began to target civilians as well.
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Old 12-06-2013, 08:28 PM   #71
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Seriously? You call me a liar then throw the onus onto me? Fine, I'll play:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe

http://thebackbencher.co.uk/3-things...elson-mandela/

http://americanvision.org/9813/missi....tRVCU5kz.dpbs

I could care less if he was a communist or socialist. The group he co-founded, for whatever good reasons there were which I don't disagree, began to target civilians as well.
Question for you:

Did the patriots who fought for freedom in our nation ever target or attack British loyalist civilians? Please explain to us how this was different.
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Old 12-06-2013, 09:14 PM   #72
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Question for you:

Did the patriots who fought for freedom in our nation ever target or attack British loyalist civilians? Please explain to us how this was different.
American Patriots definitely subjected American Loyalists to violence and humiliation. But so did Loyalists do the same to Patriots. However, despite what the movie The Patriot would have you believe, it was not an accepted practice by the actual armies to violently attack either side unless they got in their way when it came time to appropriate supplies from the country folk.

I understand what you are saying and I also know that it is damn near impossible to completely avoid killing innocents in any revolution. It's a very valid point. But the American army didn't make it a practice of setting bombs in hotels or putting mines on roads traveled by workers.
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Old 12-07-2013, 04:38 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by houghtam View Post
Right on cue...

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpos...0&postcount=22

Black people are bad, mkay? If you like black people then you're bad, mkay?

How long until barryr or nyuk weigh in with their thoughts on that uppity black guy who had the gall to stand up to the oppressed white minority?
Of course if he was a black conservative, you'd be mocking him and believing he was a "sell out."
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Old 12-07-2013, 04:43 AM   #74
barryr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houghtam View Post
You've said this before, and once again I'm making my WTF face.

If you can quote me where I said I'm not a liberal, I'll give you a cookie.

Until then, cork it, dip****.

Glad you finally admit it. But to go and research anything about you would be a complete waste of time since, sorry to point this out, but having seen your body of work with your posts and denials, you are not worth it because you are not important enough to matter.
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Old 12-07-2013, 06:28 AM   #75
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In Summary, Africans want to be ruled by Africans...so be it. It's natural to want to have your leaders reflect the majority of the population. Apartheid was an artificial creation that changed the natural order of things.

The celebration of the end of Apartheid by Africans is logical....However for people of European Ancestry, the violent crime rates of the last 20 years in South Africa speak for themselves and if you're celebrating the rise of the ANC you're celebrating the systematic destruction and murder of your own race...and that is a sickness born of LEFTIST mind numbing policies..........Only white people celebrate their own demise. Houghtam, WIGS, Denver Brit are perfect examples.....
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