The Orange Mane -  a Denver Broncos Fan Community  

Go Back   The Orange Mane - a Denver Broncos Fan Community > Orange Mane Discussion > Orange Mane Central Discussion
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Chat Room Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-12-2013, 08:53 AM   #526
crush17
orange & blue
 
crush17's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 5,289

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Thanks Champ!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pony Boy View Post
I totatly agree but letís not forget the genius of Mike Shanahan when he used a 3rd round pick (#101 overall) in 2005 for Maurice Clarett.
And a 1st rounder on Jarvis Moss
crush17 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 08:53 AM   #527
Action
Ring of Famer
 
Action's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Broncos
Posts: 2,171

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Isaiah Burse
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReverend View Post
I'm sick of the same endless conversation as well.

Rep link/PM me the other thread? I won't bump it, just curious what you're talking about now.
rep'd
Action is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 08:53 AM   #528
BroncoBeavis
Ring of Famer
 
BroncoBeavis's Avatar
 
New to the Forum

Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,022

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Action View Post
Yeah, but I'm removing 2, which is 10% of his career. You remove 10% of any great coaches career it shouldn't consist of 1 playoff win.
To be fair, that's what Foxy would have if you removed two of his seasons.


At the end of the day Shanny needs to resign himself to a decent GM and focus on coaching offense.
Until then, he will struggle. And I'm not sure he'd ever be willing to do it. Eventually he may have no choice.
BroncoBeavis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 08:57 AM   #529
Action
Ring of Famer
 
Action's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Broncos
Posts: 2,171

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Isaiah Burse
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoBeavis View Post
To be fair, that's what Foxy would have if you removed two of his seasons.

Shanny needs to resign himself to a decent GM and focus on coaching offense.

Until then, he will struggle.
No one is out here claiming Fox is one of the greatest though.

And 10% of Fox's career would only equate to 1.2 seasons...which rounds to 1.

John Fox is in the midst of building his legacy right now... we'll see what his looks like at 15-20 years as a HC.
Action is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 08:58 AM   #530
TheReverend
Permanent Facepalm
 
TheReverend's Avatar
 
Not. Too. Shabby.

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 36,967

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Mike Shanahan
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pony Boy View Post
I totatly agree but letís not forget the genius of Mike Shanahan when he used a 3rd round pick (#101 overall) in 2005 for Maurice Clarett.
People are tripping over their ***** to gush over Bobby Turner but then use this as a knock on Mike... I really don't understand you guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Action View Post
rep'd
Oh okay, no that wasn't what I meant, I agreed with you on that topic.
TheReverend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 09:05 AM   #531
BroncoBeavis
Ring of Famer
 
BroncoBeavis's Avatar
 
New to the Forum

Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,022

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Action View Post
No one is out here claiming Fox is one of the greatest though.

And 10% of Fox's career would only equate to 1.2 seasons...which rounds to 1.

John Fox is in the midst of building his legacy right now... we'll see what his looks like at 15-20 years as a HC.
We can dance this dance all you want. Rounding seasons for some arbitrary 10% threshold... lolz. The fact of the matter is so much of it has to do with things outside a normal coach's control that it's not productive to try to argue in stats.

Foxy's roughly a .500 coach without a HOF QB on the roster. Then again, so is Bill Belichick. It's one of those things you have to watch to get a feel. And my permanent recollection is that Shanny did way more with his offensive personnel they he usually should have. A good coach.

But he never HAD the best personnel. Which, along with the endless procession of DC's, was all on him.

But to me, there's no arguing he's a great offensive coach. He just needs to realize that and focus on what he does best.
BroncoBeavis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 09:15 AM   #532
Tombstone RJ
Ring of Famer
 
Tombstone RJ's Avatar
 
Old School

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In the Tetons!
Posts: 22,039

Adopt-a-Bronco:
WorrellWilliams
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pony Boy View Post
I totatly agree but letís not forget the genius of Mike Shanahan when he used a 3rd round pick (#101 overall) in 2005 for Maurice Clarett.
had that pick panned out Shanny would have looked like a genius. On the flip side there were some other really solid RBs that the Broncos could have had but didn't take in that draft and had Shanny taken a RB like Marion Barber whom the pokes took after the Broncos grabbed Clarrett, Broncos would of been set at RB. I don't even wanna think about how great Barber would have been for the Broncos, it's too painful to discuss.
Tombstone RJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 09:16 AM   #533
Action
Ring of Famer
 
Action's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Broncos
Posts: 2,171

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Isaiah Burse
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoBeavis View Post
We can dance this dance all you want. Rounding seasons for some arbitrary 10% threshold... lolz. The fact of the matter is so much of it has to do with things outside a normal coach's control that it's not productive to try to argue in stats.
Here's the thing - Mike Shanahan was in control...and we all agree he's pretty bad as a GM.

Quote:
Foxy's roughly a .500 coach without a HOF QB on the roster. Then again, so is Bill Belichick. It's one of those things you have to watch to get a feel. And my permanent recollection is that Shanny did way more with his offensive personnel they he usually should have. A good coach.
Is that a good head coach or just a good offensive coach? I think we can agree Shanny can put together a good offense.

Foxy did it with Delhomme. I'm not out here arguing career w/l...I'm strictly talking playoffs success over a sustained time period. No one is saying Shanahan needed to win a playoff game every year.

Bill Belichick drafted Tom Brady, so he deserves all the credit in the world for him...it's harder to say "oh without Tom Brady _______"...

In Fox and Shanahan's situation, they came to an organization with a HOF QB already there and fully developed.

Quote:
But he never HAD the best personnel. Which, along with the endless procession of DC's, was all on him.

But to me, there's no arguing he's a great offensive coach. He just needs to realize that and focus on what he does best.
Here's the thing - with Shanahan... I'm looking at his last 10 years as a Broncos HC (14 if you're counting these past 4 as a Redskins HC)...this is a continuous time period, not just 10 random years picked out for my own benefit.

We can talk about Shanahan as an offensive coach or Shanahan as a head coach...two different things.

Now, I'm really done.

Broncos play today...why the **** am I still talking about Shanahan...
Action is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 09:17 AM   #534
TheReverend
Permanent Facepalm
 
TheReverend's Avatar
 
Not. Too. Shabby.

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 36,967

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Mike Shanahan
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ View Post
had that pick panned out Shanny would have looked like a genius. On the flip side there were some other really solid RBs that the Broncos could have had but didn't take in that draft and had Shanny taken a RB like Marion Barber whom the pokes took after the Broncos grabbed Clarrett, Broncos would of been set at RB. I don't even wanna think about how great Barber would have been for the Broncos, it's too painful to discuss.
Barber washed out pretty quick in his own right.
TheReverend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 09:19 AM   #535
Tombstone RJ
Ring of Famer
 
Tombstone RJ's Avatar
 
Old School

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In the Tetons!
Posts: 22,039

Adopt-a-Bronco:
WorrellWilliams
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReverend View Post
Barber washed out pretty quick in his own right.
yah but he had like 4 really solid years and in Shanny's system he would have been fantastic.
Tombstone RJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 09:21 AM   #536
TheReverend
Permanent Facepalm
 
TheReverend's Avatar
 
Not. Too. Shabby.

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 36,967

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Mike Shanahan
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ View Post
yah but he had like 4 really solid years and in Shanny's system he would have been fantastic.
Likely so.

I think Montee Ball would destroy planets in that system.
TheReverend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 09:24 AM   #537
Tombstone RJ
Ring of Famer
 
Tombstone RJ's Avatar
 
Old School

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In the Tetons!
Posts: 22,039

Adopt-a-Bronco:
WorrellWilliams
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReverend View Post
Likely so.

I think Montee Ball would destroy planets in that system.
2005 draft with DJ Williams and Marion Barber would have really been a pretty damn solid draft even with the other picks being pretty meh. Oh well.
Tombstone RJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 09:25 AM   #538
BroncoBeavis
Ring of Famer
 
BroncoBeavis's Avatar
 
New to the Forum

Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,022

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Action View Post
Here's the thing - Mike Shanahan was in control...and we all agree he's pretty bad as a GM.



Is that a good head coach or just a good offensive coach? I think we can agree Shanny can put together a good offense.

Foxy did it with Delhomme. I'm not out here arguing career w/l...I'm strictly talking playoffs success over a sustained time period. No one is saying Shanahan needed to win a playoff game every year.

Bill Belichick drafted Tom Brady, so he deserves all the credit in the world for him...it's harder to say "oh without Tom Brady _______"...

In Fox and Shanahan's situation, they came to an organization with a HOF QB already there and fully developed.



Here's the thing - with Shanahan... I'm looking at his last 10 years as a Broncos HC (14 if you're counting these past 4 as a Redskins HC)...this is a continuous time period, not just 10 random years picked out for my own benefit.

We can talk about Shanahan as an offensive coach or Shanahan as a head coach...two different things.

Now, I'm really done.

Broncos play today...why the **** am I still talking about Shanahan...
I think we mostly agree. I think maybe there's just a bit too much "Shanny Sucks" hyperbole. The "One playoff win" stuff is too easy. He easily could've had one or two more had he not drawn the elite Colts 2 years in a row. Probably the worst matchup imaginable for us at that time. And it showed.

Meanwhile, you can whittle Foxy's "1 playoff win" down to a Tebow miracle that probably couldn't have happened had the Broncos drawn a different opponent.

But you're right about Shanny as GM for the most part. Not so sure about the distinction over good offensive coach vs head coach. Every head coach has a focus on one discipline or the other. The primary issue with the '00+ Broncos was personnel. With the right people, HC Shanny would've had a ton more success, IM(ns)HO.

Last edited by BroncoBeavis; 12-12-2013 at 09:27 AM..
BroncoBeavis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 09:27 AM   #539
Action
Ring of Famer
 
Action's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Broncos
Posts: 2,171

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Isaiah Burse
Default

One last thought: if Cousins plays well over the last 3 games..does that build trade value and thus make it the right move for the Redskins organization (if they make a trade for a good pick)...?
Action is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 09:28 AM   #540
TheReverend
Permanent Facepalm
 
TheReverend's Avatar
 
Not. Too. Shabby.

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 36,967

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Mike Shanahan
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ View Post
2005 draft with DJ Williams and Marion Barber would have really been a pretty damn solid draft even with the other picks being pretty meh. Oh well.
Watts, LeSeuer, Clarrette and Shoate. Ouch.

I'll never forget Darius dropping that TD that hit him in the hands (claw) costing us a Charger game win.
TheReverend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 09:29 AM   #541
TheReverend
Permanent Facepalm
 
TheReverend's Avatar
 
Not. Too. Shabby.

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 36,967

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Mike Shanahan
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Action View Post
One last thought: if Cousins plays well over the last 3 games..does that build trade value and thus make it the right move for the Redskins organization (if they make a trade for a good pick)...?
I do think that's what's going on here. The "talk" between Shanahan and Snyder was explaining this move to try and stock pile value to recomp some picks invested in Griffin.

Cousins might be better than every **** QB in this draft class.
TheReverend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 09:30 AM   #542
Action
Ring of Famer
 
Action's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Broncos
Posts: 2,171

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Isaiah Burse
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoBeavis View Post
I think we mostly agree. I think maybe there's just a bit too much "Shanny Sucks" hyperbole. The "One playoff win" stuff is too easy. He easily could've had one or two more had he not drawn the elite Colts 2 years in a row. Probably the worst matchup imaginable for us at that time. And it showed.

Meanwhile, you can whittle Foxy's "1 playoff win" down to a Tebow miracle that probably couldn't have happened had the Broncos drawn a different opponent.

But you're right about Shanny as GM for the most part. Not so sure about the distinction over good offensive coach vs head coach. Every head coach has a focus on one discipline or the other. The primary issue with the '00+ Broncos was personnel. With the right people, HC Shanny would've had a ton more success, IM(ns)HO.
Of course, and you can obviously say that about anyone but Shanahan couldn't find any good defensive head coaches either...and the person in charge of personnel was Shanahan, so if that's the issue, the finger still points back at him.

In regards to the Manning statement...there can always be excuses...I mean Manning lost to the Patriots in both of those years that he beat the Broncos...he's not excused from it either. And it's not like the Patriots won in some sort of shootout...they won it on defense.
Action is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 09:31 AM   #543
Action
Ring of Famer
 
Action's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Broncos
Posts: 2,171

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Isaiah Burse
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReverend View Post
I do think that's what's going on here. The "talk" between Shanahan and Snyder was explaining this move to try and stock pile value to recomp some picks invested in Griffin.

Cousins might be better than every **** QB in this draft class.
Would explain deactivating Griffin to remove all the hoopla and distractions for Cousins to perform well... Griffin probably needs some humbling anyways.

What I mean is, Cousins wouldn't have to play with the pressure of RG3 behind him...
Action is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 09:33 AM   #544
TheReverend
Permanent Facepalm
 
TheReverend's Avatar
 
Not. Too. Shabby.

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 36,967

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Mike Shanahan
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Action View Post
Of course, and you can obviously say that about anyone but Shanahan couldn't find any good defensive head coaches either...and the person in charge of personnel was Shanahan, so if that's the issue, the finger still points back at him.

In regards to the Manning statement...there can always be excuses...I mean Manning lost to the Patriots in both of those years that he beat the Broncos...he's not excused from it either. And it's not like the Patriots won in some sort of shootout...they won it on defense.
...And the Broncos beat the Patriots. What are you looking for here?

It was called AFC Rock-Paper-Scissors:

Broncos beat Patriots
Patriots beat Colts
Colts beat Broncos
Steelers beat everyone (including themselves)
TheReverend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 09:34 AM   #545
BroncoBeavis
Ring of Famer
 
BroncoBeavis's Avatar
 
New to the Forum

Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,022

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Action View Post
Of course, and you can obviously say that about anyone but Shanahan couldn't find any good defensive head coaches either...and the person in charge of personnel was Shanahan, so if that's the issue, the finger still points back at him.

In regards to the Manning statement...there can always be excuses...I mean Manning lost to the Patriots in both of those years that he beat the Broncos...he's not excused from it either. And it's not like the Patriots won in some sort of shootout...they won it on defense.
Goes back to that AFC triangle we had back in those days. We owned the Pats. The Pats owned the Colts. The Colts owned us.

We finally got on the right end of it, but the effing Steelers had to come in and eff it all up.
BroncoBeavis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 09:36 AM   #546
bronco militia
OMG...this is horrible!
 
bronco militia's Avatar
 
THE GREATEST

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: colorado springs, co
Posts: 24,712
Default

6 ****ING YEARS LATER AND WE CAN'T STOP TALKING ABOUT SHANAHAN, PLUMMER AND CUTLER



carry on
bronco militia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 09:38 AM   #547
Action
Ring of Famer
 
Action's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Broncos
Posts: 2,171

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Isaiah Burse
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReverend View Post
...And the Broncos beat the Patriots. What are you looking for here?

It was called AFC Rock-Paper-Scissors:

Broncos beat Patriots
Patriots beat Colts
Colts beat Broncos
Steelers beat everyone (including themselves)
I'm just saying I don't believe in excuses or excusing someone because of a match up...Manning did eventually beat the Patriots, however.

We can talk about Shanahan's match up with Manning...Plummer...and then finally his epic failure at the end of 2008...doesn't matter...at the end of the day you look back at his last 10 years and all you see is the wins and losses and playoffs. I'm sure that's how Elway sees it today and how he will run this organization - no excuses and do what it takes to win.
Action is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 09:40 AM   #548
TheReverend
Permanent Facepalm
 
TheReverend's Avatar
 
Not. Too. Shabby.

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 36,967

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Mike Shanahan
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Action View Post
I'm just saying I don't believe in excuses or excusing someone because of a match up...Manning did eventually beat the Patriots, however.

We can talk about Shanahan's match up with Manning...Plummer...and then finally his epic failure at the end of 2008...doesn't matter...at the end of the day you look back at his last 10 years and all you see is the wins and losses and playoffs. I'm sure that's how Elway sees it today and how he will run this organization - no excuses and do what it takes to win.
You don't believe in excuses but you sure use a lot of them dismissing accomplishments and shifting the argument to playoff wins post Elway (and when that changes, the goal posts will be moved further back).

This game simply has too many variables to view any aspect of it out of context.
TheReverend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 09:43 AM   #549
bronco militia
OMG...this is horrible!
 
bronco militia's Avatar
 
THE GREATEST

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: colorado springs, co
Posts: 24,712
Default

bronco militia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 09:47 AM   #550
Action
Ring of Famer
 
Action's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Broncos
Posts: 2,171

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Isaiah Burse
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReverend View Post
You don't believe in excuses but you sure use a lot of them dismissing accomplishments and shifting the argument to playoff wins post Elway (and when that changes, the goal posts will be moved further back).

This game simply has too many variables to view any aspect of it out of context.
I only used them to play on the same field as you...my point was that you're making excuses, so can I. That's all.

But in all honestly, I'd rather not and just look at production in the playoffs (then try to explain why it didn't work out in terms of, what could have been different and what could have changed that the Broncos were in control of). You're not in control of your match ups.

I mean sure...maybe in 2003 2004 2005, I might of sat there and said wow **** Manning etc...but now just looking back at now, it's a different story when you see the whole picture.

I know it's easy to say, 1 playoff win and 10 years and shove it down, but that's really what it was and that's the facts...you look at any other team and if it was them, you'd be laughing at them too.
Action is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:33 PM.


Denver Broncos