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Old 10-30-2013, 12:38 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by BBII View Post
Come on now. Even CBO gave up on the old "preventative medicine is cheaper" canard a long time ago.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...not-cut-costs/

Your high-maintenance is even more burden on me. You should buy me some beer or something.
Not so fast.

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CBO Scoring Shortchanges Preventive Healthcare Spending

-------------

In a telephone conversation, Burgess explains that by law, the CBO must only look 10 years out when it develops cost estimates on how a piece of legislation will affect spending and revenues.

The problem is that the advantages of preventive healthcare spending for chronic diseases do not always fit neatly into that time frame. Programs to reduce the obesity rate, or to trim the increase in diabetes cases, or to keep diabetic blood sugars under control may need longer than 10 years to begin to demonstrate their full economic value.

Burgess notes that chronic disease care accounts for 70% of healthcare spending, or about $1.6 trillion annually. In this era of care coordination and care management, he explains, the savings from preventive care is "undisputed" by experts. Now, Burgess says, it is time for CBO analysis to reflect how preventive healthcare spending can begin to contain costs and provide long-term savings.
http://www.healthleadersmedia.com/pa...hcare-Spending


Quote:
Rebutting the CBO's Preventative Care Cost Analysis

------------------

The CBO analysis and many legislative approaches to prevention focus on secondary prevention with subsequent medical interventions. They do not address primary and tertiary prevention, which represent a significant portion of health care cost savings.

The main challenge to secondary prevention has been widely discussed and provides the basis for the CBO assessment. The report states, "to avert one case of acute illness, it is usually necessary to provide preventive care to many patients, most of whom would not have suffered that illness anyway." We agree that some early prevention efforts, while effective at improving outcomes, were cost prohibitive because they produced widespread screening for multiple diseases. However, the discipline of preventive health care has progressed beyond its early stages to incorporate risk-based targeting and clinical recommendations. Programs such as The Prevention Plan™ combine simple blood tests with online health history and lifestyle questionnaires to identify each individual's top risks and then recommend an action plan to address only those risks. The CBO report states that preventive care "can have the largest benefits relative to costs when it is targeted at people who are most likely to suffer from a particular medical problem." These capabilities are available in the marketplace today, but not included in the analysis.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-..._b_270450.html

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Old 10-30-2013, 01:04 PM   #52
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OMG! Did youjust quote the huffingtonpuffingronpost as your source material? Might as well post something MSNBC or aljazaar.
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Old 10-30-2013, 01:21 PM   #53
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Lolz. Imagine if I tried to rebut the CBO's findings as used in the actual ACA budgeting process with some Daily Caller piece or an article from a Healthcare industry-insider site.

Here's some more for you...

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0708558

Quote:
Our findings suggest that the broad generalizations made by many presidential candidates can be misleading. These statements convey the message that substantial resources can be saved through prevention. Although some preventive measures do save money, the vast majority reviewed in the health economics literature do not.
Generally speaking the whole "More Insured People getting Preventative Treatment Saves us all lots of money" thing is a political urban legend. Completely unsubstantiated.

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Old 10-30-2013, 01:31 PM   #54
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Lolz. Imagine if I tried to rebut the CBO's findings as used in the actual ACA budgeting process with some Daily Caller piece or an article from a Healthcare industry-insider site.

Here's some more for you...

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0708558



Generally speaking the whole "More Insured People getting Preventative Treatment Saves us all lots of money" thing is a political urban legend. Completely unsubstantiated.
Uh huh. Two ad hominem attacks and no real response to the issues brought up by the critics of CBOs findings. Figures.

No wonder you consider preventive care savings an "urban legend." Does that bubble you live in have cable?
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Old 10-30-2013, 01:56 PM   #55
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OMG! Did youjust quote the huffingtonpuffingronpost as your source material? Might as well post something MSNBC or aljazaar.
huffingtonpost a site found by/with your buttbuddy brietbart? lame attempt.
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Old 10-30-2013, 01:56 PM   #56
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Uh huh. Two ad hominem attacks and no real response to the issues brought up by the critics of CBOs findings. Figures.

No wonder you consider preventive care savings an "urban legend." Does that bubble you live in have cable?
Before I go deeper, are you going to ride to my defense the next time Roh chides me for questioning CBO numbers?
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Old 10-30-2013, 02:09 PM   #57
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huffingtonpost a site found by/with your buttbuddy brietbart? lame attempt.
Yeah, such good partners that britbart starts their own their own site. . At least I picked this story from NBC.
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Old 10-30-2013, 07:42 PM   #58
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Before I go deeper, are you going to ride to my defense the next time Roh chides me for questioning CBO numbers?
You've already demonstrated reading comprehension problems and a tendency to respond with irrelevant quips, so go ahead and "go deeper." This ought to be worth a laugh or two.
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Old 10-30-2013, 09:02 PM   #59
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You've already demonstrated reading comprehension problems and a tendency to respond with irrelevant quips, so go ahead and "go deeper." This ought to be worth a laugh or two.
Yeah, you really hit a home run there saying CBO lacks credibility because the CEO of "U.S. Preventative Medicine" says that Preventative Medicine is all that and a bag of chips.

At the end of the day, all your sources did was whine about methodology, yet presented nothing in the way of their own evidence. Because if they tried, it would be pretty thin.
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Old 10-31-2013, 06:47 AM   #60
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OK righties, I concede that Obama oversold this aspect of the PPACA. That said, I don't care that some people will be forced to upgrade. The PPACA requires standards in order to work. We can debate and adjust those standards down the line if necessary.
I like this the way you use the term "oversold" to replace the term "lied to". Car salesmen have been doing this for years with great success.
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Old 10-31-2013, 07:16 AM   #61
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I like this the way you use the term "oversold" to replace the term "lied to". Car salesmen have been doing this for years with great success.
Yeah but how many of them prefaced it with "Let me be clear"
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Old 10-31-2013, 07:22 AM   #62
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Question for the cheerleaders. If these plans that people had that do not meet the standards set forth by the ACA weren't they crap plans to begin with? Bobo?
Yes, they were most likely poor plans that would have been worse had the person holding them got very ill.

and the individual insurance market was tiny compared to those covered by Medicare, Medicaid or Employer based Group plans. So there are a few stories or people having to bu complaint plans, big deal... even if they cost more, has anyone considered that those same folks might qualigy for a credit towards that policy

The ACA is here and going nowhere. Conservatves can bluster all they want, it makes for great soundbites and desperate rebel rousing.. in the end, people will buy insurance,the law will be fine, and again the GOP will be on the outside looking in.
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Old 10-31-2013, 08:06 AM   #63
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Yes, they were most likely poor plans that would have been worse had the person holding them got very ill.

and the individual insurance market was tiny compared to those covered by Medicare, Medicaid or Employer based Group plans. So there are a few stories or people having to bu complaint plans, big deal... even if they cost more, has anyone considered that those same folks might qualigy for a credit towards that policy

The ACA is here and going nowhere. Conservatves can bluster all they want, it makes for great soundbites and desperate rebel rousing.. in the end, people will buy insurance,the law will be fine, and again the GOP will be on the outside looking in.
The sick will buy insurance. A higher percentage of the healthy will not. And you can write off all the people on Medicare and employer plans if you want. Problem is, those guys don't balance any books for the new exchange pools. They're basically a completely separate market.

They basically took a market where many people sat out because the price was too high and made the price much higher.

Good luck with that.

More healthy will leave. More artificially-underpriced sick will sign up. And around this time next year, health insurers are going to have to balance things up. If you think this fall is ugly, just wait for 2014.
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Old 10-31-2013, 08:24 AM   #64
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Name one thing Obama promised that hasn't been "oversold"

1-transparency?
2-unemployment from stimulus?
3-ACA?
4-civil liberties?
5-stopping war?

What hasn't he oversold?
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Old 10-31-2013, 09:39 AM   #65
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Yeah but how many of them prefaced it with "Let me be clear"
"Let me be clear", the extended warranty will cover absolutely anything that happens to your automobile for life ..... trust me now sign here on the dotted line.
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Old 10-31-2013, 10:27 AM   #66
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http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...le_120518.html


So how does Paul Ryan suppose the ACA is un-workable (and the reforms are already in place and working), but privatizing Medicare would??

This is what I don't get about Republicans. They hate Government controlled/ run programs like Medicare, but the Afforadable Care Act IS the beta run for privatizing such a program in the future... IF the ACA is a success, conservatives have the upperhand on the entitlement reform narrative regarding Medicare.

they continue to fight this Phyrric War, it just doesn't seem logical.
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Old 10-31-2013, 10:30 AM   #67
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Yesterday, the President said in Boston that the millions of people who are getting cancellation letters ending their coverage in the individual health insurance market are being saved from "substandard plans" that were sold to them by "bad apple insurers."

I guess these would be the same insurers his staff invited to the White House last week. In their statement following that meeting, the White House said they were "committed to working in partnership with the insurers" toward implementation of the Affordable Care Act.

So, this is how he treats his "partners."

Are health insurance plans in the individual market substandard?

Not the overwhelming bulk of them.

How do I know that?

Because individual health insurance policies have been regulated for decades by the states. Every policy sold in a state has to be approved by that state's insurance commissioner. Have you heard about the longstanding debate about over whether or not states over regulate this market with too many state health insurance coverage mandates and policy requirements?
http://healthpolicyandmarket.blogspo...bad-apple.html
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Old 10-31-2013, 10:31 AM   #68
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http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...le_120518.html


So how does Paul Ryan suppose the ACA is un-workable (and the reforms are already in place and working), but privatizing Medicare would??

This is what I don't get about Republicans. They hate Government controlled/ run programs like Medicare, but the Afforadable Care Act IS the beta run for privatizing such a program in the future... IF the ACA is a success, conservatives have the upperhand on the entitlement reform narrative regarding Medicare.

they continue to fight this Phyrric War, it just doesn't seem logical.

And yet every politician, dem and repub, has said the ACA is really the first step to single payer, not privatization. Go figure.
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Old 10-31-2013, 10:33 AM   #69
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The sick will buy insurance. A higher percentage of the healthy will not. And you can write off all the people on Medicare and employer plans if you want. Problem is, those guys don't balance any books for the new exchange pools. They're basically a completely separate market.

They basically took a market where many people sat out because the price was too high and made the price much higher.

Good luck with that.

More healthy will leave. More artificially-underpriced sick will sign up. And around this time next year, health insurers are going to have to balance things up. If you think this fall is ugly, just wait for 2014.

Pure speculation. I am not convinced kids in their mid-twenties feel comfortable to go without heathcare coverage... I know that seems to be the current narrative, but I always had insurance and paid COBRA inbetween jobs... Also, why do we make the asummption that young people are stupid, so stupid they do no value protecting their financial future against medical risk?

Are we really a nation that on one side of the isle is hoping people skirt their reponsibility to pay for themselves in case of Medical issues? I thought we were the nation of personal reponsibility? I guess we are when it fits the political narrative?
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Old 10-31-2013, 10:34 AM   #70
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And yet every politician, dem and repub, has said the ACA is really the first step to single payer, not privatization. Go figure.
Then as a Conservative, why hope it fails?
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Old 10-31-2013, 10:35 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by B-Large View Post
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...le_120518.html


So how does Paul Ryan suppose the ACA is un-workable (and the reforms are already in place and working), but privatizing Medicare would??

This is what I don't get about Republicans. They hate Government controlled/ run programs like Medicare, but the Afforadable Care Act IS the beta run for privatizing such a program in the future... IF the ACA is a success, conservatives have the upperhand on the entitlement reform narrative regarding Medicare.

they continue to fight this Phyrric War, it just doesn't seem logical.
You do realize there already was a private healthcare market right? Obamacare didn't invent people buying their own insurance. Our government's decision making and execution only makes it look like a Beta test.
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Old 10-31-2013, 10:47 AM   #72
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Pure speculation. I am not convinced kids in their mid-twenties feel comfortable to go without heathcare coverage... I know that seems to be the current narrative, but I always had insurance and paid COBRA inbetween jobs... Also, why do we make the asummption that young people are stupid, so stupid they do no value protecting their financial future against medical risk?

Are we really a nation that on one side of the isle is hoping people skirt their reponsibility to pay for themselves in case of Medical issues? I thought we were the nation of personal reponsibility? I guess we are when it fits the political narrative?
It's not that all of them will. It's that as price tags increase, more of them will. And this law doesn't just bank on the healthy enrolling at the same rate as before. It banks on more young, healthy people insuring than ever before. With higher prices.

It's mindblowingly ill-conceived. And maybe they thought subsidies would be the difference. And that's maybe why they blew up the system to force people to sign in first to (attempt) to see a subsidized price instead of what it really costs.

But in the process they've made such a joke out of it that they'll never hit anything like the numbers they wanted. And if you can bet on anything, its that health insurers aren't going to go ahead and eat it as an act of charity.

As far as skirting responsibility, that's a copout. Young kids just starting out are the poorest demographic there is. They should be free to buy catastrophic backstop type coverage because that's all 95% of them need. Yoking them to older, wealthier people who already went through their young healthy phase while only paying their own way is not "responsibility" Just like our incredible deficits, it's political theft, plain and simple.
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Old 10-31-2013, 03:31 PM   #73
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Another Obamacare horror story debunked


CNBC's Maria Bartiromo fails to walk the last mile with Deborah Cavallaro, lower right. (CNBC)

By Michael Hiltzik
October 30, 2013, 3:26 p.m.

Deborah Cavallaro is a hard-working real estate agent in the Westchester suburb of Los Angeles who has been featured prominently on a round of news shows lately, talking about how badly Obamacare is going to cost her when her existing plan gets canceled and she has to find a replacement.

She says she's angry at President Obama for having promised that people who like their health plans could keep them, when hers is getting canceled for not meeting Obamacare's standards.

"Please explain to me," she told Maria Bartiromo on CNBC Wednesday, "how my plan is a 'substandard' plan when ... I'd be paying more for the exchange plans than I am currently paying by a wide margin."

Bartiromo didn't take her up on her request. So I will.

The bottom line is that Cavallaro's assertion that "there's nothing affordable about the Affordable Care Act," as she put it Tuesday on NBC Channel 4, is the product of her own misunderstandings, abetted by a passel of uninformed and incurious news reporters.

I talked with Cavallaro, 60, after her CNBC appearance. Let's walk through what she told me.

Her current plan, from Anthem Blue Cross, is a catastrophic coverage plan for which she pays $293 a month as an individual policyholder. It requires her to pay a deductible of $5,000 a year and limits her out-of-pocket costs to $8,500 a year. Her plan also limits her to two doctor visits a year, for which she shoulders a copay of $40 each. After that, she pays the whole cost of subsequent visits.

This fits the very definition of a nonconforming plan under Obamacare. The deductible and out-of-pocket maximums are too high, the provisions for doctor visits too skimpy.

As for a replacement plan, she says she was quoted $478 a month by her insurance broker, but that's a lot more than she'll really be paying. Cavallaro told me she hasn't checked the website of Covered California, the state's health plan exchange, herself. I did so while we talked.

Here's what I found. I won't divulge her current income, which is personal, but this year it qualifies her for a hefty federal premium subsidy.

At her age, she's eligible for a good "silver" plan for $333 a month after the subsidy -- $40 a month more than she's paying now. But the plan is much better than her current plan -- the deductible is $2,000, not $5,000. The maximum out-of-pocket expense is $6,350, not $8,500. Her co-pays would be $45 for a primary care visit and $65 for a specialty visit -- but all visits would be covered, not just two.

Is that better than her current plan? Yes, by a mile.


If she wanted to pay less, Cavallaro could opt for lesser coverage in a "bronze" plan. She could buy one from the California exchange for as little as $194 a month. From Anthem, it's $256, or $444 a year less than she's paying now. That buys her a $5,000 deductible (the same as she's paying today) but the out-of-pocket limit is lower, $6,350. Office visits would be $60 for primary care and $70 for specialties, but again with no limit on the number of visits. Factor in the premium savings, and it's hard to deny that she's still ahead.

Cavallaro told me a couple of things that are worth considering. First, what she likes about her current plan is that she can go to any doctor of her choice and any hospital. That's not entirely true, because her current plan with Anthem does favor a network. Plainly, however, it's broad enough to serve her purposes. She's concerned that the new plans will offer smaller networks, which is probably true, though it's not necessarily true that the new networks will exclude her favorite doctors, hospitals or prescription formularies.

She also mentioned that her annual income fluctuates. It can be substantially lower, or substantially higher, than it is this year. What if next year she earns too much to qualify for the subsidy? Also a fair point -- at her current income, the subsidy is worth more than $200 a month to her. But that's not the same as saying that "there's nothing affordable about the Affordable Care Act," because at her current income, the act is vastly more affordable to her than what she's paying now.

When she told Channel 4 that "for the first time in my whole life, I will be without insurance," it's hard to understand what she was talking about. (Channel 4 didn't ask.) Better plans than she has now are available for her to purchase today, some of them for less money.

The sad truth is that Cavallaro has been very poorly served by the health insurance industry and the news media. It seems that Anthem didn't adequately explain her options for 2014 when it disclosed that her current plan is being canceled. If her insurance brokers told her what she says they did, they failed her. And the reporters who interviewed her without getting all the facts produced inexcusably shoddy work -- from Maria Bartiromo on down. They not only did her a disservice, but failed the rest of us too.
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Old 10-31-2013, 03:50 PM   #74
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Health care in America must be reformed or it will bankrupt us. It's time for the Right to get on board.
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Old 10-31-2013, 03:55 PM   #75
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The sad truth is that Cavallaro has been very poorly served by the health insurance industry and the news media.
She seems to be very happy with her (bad apple plan) and Obama promised if she's happy then she should be able to keep it.


Obama should have said “If the government doesn’t like your plan you can’t keep it”.
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