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View Poll Results: why has our pass D sucked?
missing Von, Champ, Ayers, and/or WW 49 73.13%
schematic difference 6 8.96%
small sample size - we aren't that bad, just got torched once 10 14.93%
dominant offense forces oppostion to throw 28 41.79%
other - describe in comment 8 11.94%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-16-2013, 02:27 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by mwill07 View Post
just checked that - Von actually got a sack on 3.2% of pass attempts last year. I think it's probably fair to say that Von being back will push us back to one of the elite teams in terms of getting after the QB. It will be interesting to see what happens to our team D pass rankings.
So, he's going to increase his sack production by 160% without teams having to worry about blocking Doom- meaning he'll likely face more double teams on a regular basis?
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Old 10-16-2013, 02:30 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by ScotchTanShan View Post
So, he's going to increase his sack production by 160% without teams having to worry about blocking Doom- meaning he'll likely face more double teams on a regular basis?
This was sort of my point, we just won't know the answer to this until the D plays with both Von and WW on the field.

My guess is, the impact of Doom being gone isn't nearly as harsh as people think it will be.
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Old 10-16-2013, 02:32 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by ScotchTanShan View Post
So, he's going to increase his sack production by 160% without teams having to worry about blocking Doom- meaning he'll likely face more double teams on a regular basis?
Phillips has more sacks then Dumervil, at this point. If teams want to double Von Miller, it will open things up for everyone else. Right now, nobody is facing consistent double teams.
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Old 10-16-2013, 03:01 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by gyldenlove View Post
I think we need to qualify what "sucks" means.

Here is a list of different stats related to team pass defense and our current ranking (1) being best and (32) being worst:

Yards allowed (32)
Yards per game (32)
Attempts per game (30)
Completions per game (29)
Completion % (14)
TDs (T23)
INTs (T2)
Sacks (T9)
Passes defended (T1)

So people pass the ball a lot against us, this makes sense as the offence is scoring lots of points and our run defence is the best in the league. They gains lot of yards on their many pass attempts, but in fact we are in the better half of the league when it comes to forcing incompletions. We are top 10 in the league in large negative plays (sacks and ints), but in fact we have only give up 2 more passing TDs than we have taken away interceptions.

On a side note we are middle of the league in 3rd down conversion rate against and the only team that has not allowed a single 4th down conversion.

The defense looks bad because they give up so many yards on passes, but actually they do a pretty good job of creating big plays, getting off the field on 3rd and 4th downs.
that's why I'm not a fan of pure counting stats. rate stats are much better - as in, 8.5 yards/attempt, 30th in the league vs 6.4, 5th in the league last year. That really has nothing to do with the amount teams are throwing, it says when they do throw, they are getting yards.

You are right about completion percentage not being terrible though, which suggests we are giving up lots of big plays.
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Old 10-16-2013, 03:04 PM   #30
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I chose the Von option and scheme because to me, they go hand in hand.
I guess I should have clarified this a little more - by scheme, I'm talking about the secondary - man vs zone, cover 1 vs cover 2 vs cover 3, etc. I'm not the student of the game that some here are and don't have a good feel for if we are playing differently than we did last year.
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Old 10-16-2013, 03:07 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by ScotchTanShan View Post
So, he's going to increase his sack production by 160% without teams having to worry about blocking Doom- meaning he'll likely face more double teams on a regular basis?
not sure where your 160% comes from. I'm saying that if Von can get to the QB at the same rate that he did last year (in terms of sacks per pass attempt), and his sacks don't cannibalize his teammates (i.e. does a Von sack mean one less for Malik?), as a team we would be getting sacks at the same rate we did last year moving forward.
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Old 10-16-2013, 03:11 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwill07 View Post
Last year, we were the #3 pass D in terms of yards, and this year we are dead last. That's a huge drop-off; I'm trying to sort this out logically. The national perception seems to be that our defense is Swiss cheese - is that true, and will it be true moving forward? If so, what got us to this point?
  1. The obvious answer is no/limited Champ or Von. It's hard for me to comprehend that one pass-rusher and one DB can cause a team to drop that much... Hell, the 49ers lost Aldon Smith and they only dropped from 4 last year to 6 this year. I think there's got to be more to the story.
  2. schematics: are we doing anything different? Has anyone noticed anything fundamentally unsound in what we are allowing? Have we tried to be more of a "bend-but-don't-break" style of D, allowing the short stuff but not getting burned over the top (Dallas game obvious exception)? The stats seem to bear that out, seeing how we are pretty damn close to average in td allowed/attempt yet near NFL worst in yards/attempt. JAX game is a good example here - 300 passing yards allowed, 0 passing TD.
  3. small sample size: obviously, the big Dallas game really skewed the stats. If one recognizes that giving up 500 yards is not representative, you gotta believe that this D will improve, right? This is a "regression towards the mean" argument. of course, looking at the league, if we had allowed 200 less yards vs DAL, we'd still be 29th so not sure I buy it.
  4. our offense is so dominant, teams have to move the ball by throwing it, and therefore counting metrics (i.e. total passing yards) aren't a big deal. In theory, that makes offenses one dimensional and should therefore improve our situation - in fact, we are allowing opposing QB's a passer rating of 87.8, damn near NFL average. What's weird here is that this should actually make it easier to run on us - draws, etc. Buy, we hold form allowing only 3.2 yards per carry, 2nd best in the league.
Anyone have any other observations as to what the problem has been?
good lord, it's very simple, no pass rush. Last year the Broncos had a sack festival and this year not so much.
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Old 10-16-2013, 03:31 PM   #33
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No Doom, no Von. Couple that with the fact that teams are having to heave the ball to keep pace with us.

Also, our D has seen 251 passing attempts (2nd most only to Philly). We're 3rd worst in yards per attempt, but I would think that could still be chalked up to us playing prevent D later in most of our games. There's an interesting stat called "Adjusted Yards per Attempt" for which we rank 8th worst in the league. You can find many good #'s here: http://www.pro-football-reference.co...s/2013/opp.htm
Dang, I didn't realize just how bad Denver is in most every Defensive category (other than rushing). Even if you factor in some teams have only played 5 games, Denver still won't jump up much in defensive rankings.

Maybe scheme has a lot to do with it. JDR has been going with a three-man rush quite a bit, five or more DB's. Yet they still lead the League in 20+ yd pass plays allowed http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorysta...ualified=false

NFl.com used to track 30+ yd plays allowed, I'd be interested to see where Denver ranked.

Of course, we're only six games into the season so a lot can change from now til the end of the season with the return of Von.
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Old 10-16-2013, 03:40 PM   #34
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I blame Bush
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Old 10-16-2013, 04:50 PM   #35
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Lack of passrush and disorganization. I don't think it's any coincidence that our pass D has looked the worst with Woodyard out. They weren't terrible before that.
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Old 10-16-2013, 05:13 PM   #36
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Just thought I'd throw this in here since it's somewhat relevant to the topic:

Quote:
Denver Broncos: Tied for the most pressure so far on the team are Shaun Phillips, Robert Ayers and Derek Wolfe at 19 each. They each represent 14.5% of the teamís pressure. 30 of the 32 teams have at least two players that have made 14.5% of their teamís pressure, with ten teams having three.

Kansas City Chiefs: The two players leading the league in overall pressure regardless of position are Tamba Hali at 51 and Justin Houston at 34.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...ions-week-6-2/

So, our top 3 guys have 19 pressures each. KC's have 51 and 34. I wish they gave the team totals.
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Old 10-16-2013, 05:15 PM   #37
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Jeez, you are such an Irsay
You mean to say the Irsay is almost always right?!?
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Old 10-16-2013, 09:26 PM   #38
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Stupid poll. It's mixture of things, not any one thing.
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Old 10-16-2013, 09:30 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchTanShan View Post
So, he's going to increase his sack production by 160% without teams having to worry about blocking Doom- meaning he'll likely face more double teams on a regular basis?
We haven't missed Dumervil one bit. Our other pass rushers are doing more than he would be doing for us right now. We just lack that dominating pass rusher that causes defenses to buckle. Or we were lacking it until recently.
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Old 10-16-2013, 09:37 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ View Post
good lord, it's very simple, no pass rush. Last year the Broncos had a sack festival and this year not so much.
Having a diminished pass rush is the reason we are having a hard time not blowing coverages on every other play? Interesting...
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Old 10-16-2013, 09:39 PM   #41
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Where is the Griese option
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Old 10-16-2013, 10:47 PM   #42
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Here it is in a nutshell.

We simply SHUT down the run. Both good play there and that's what the coaches are obviously calling for. Stop the run 1st. We also have big leads most of the time and thus, teams are forced to pass, both because they're behind and because they're run game gets kicked in the nuts. Throw in no Miller and inconsistent pass rush, plus no Bailey and there's your recipe for alot of yards given up in the passing game.

With alot of these injured guys back and Miller coming back from suspension, let's see how it looks going forward. With teams passing this much against us, Miller is gonna rack up some sacks and hopefully some sack/fumbles.

I'm actually more happy that we're establishing a ground game right now. Stopping the run and running well ourselves will serve us well in the playoffs. Just as long as we don't allow the big pass play because of mistakes.
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Old 10-16-2013, 10:57 PM   #43
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that's why I'm not a fan of pure counting stats. rate stats are much better - as in, 8.5 yards/attempt, 30th in the league vs 6.4, 5th in the league last year. That really has nothing to do with the amount teams are throwing, it says when they do throw, they are getting yards.

You are right about completion percentage not being terrible though, which suggests we are giving up lots of big plays.
Considering we've played six games and in those six games gave up three big pass plays (around 80 yards each) on blown coverage/tackles....**** that's 40 ypg on only three plays. I'd say the sample size is really effecting us because of a handful of awful broken plays that were so big.
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Old 10-16-2013, 11:41 PM   #44
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I've always said going back to last year that the Broncos make the best 2nd half adjustments in the game. However, the last 2 games on defense, it didn't look like they did.

When you are missing the brains (Bailey), heart (Von), & soul (Woodyard) of your defense, it's pretty hard to make those adjustments.

Last edited by R8R H8R; 10-17-2013 at 12:32 AM..
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Old 10-17-2013, 12:05 AM   #45
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There is one big reason why the defense has struggled.

It is because of poor safety play against the pass. Nacho and Moore have both been substandard in this area. We just had a thread last week about nacho's struggles against the pass I just read today that Moore has been beaten on 15 of the 20 passes thrown toward him for 244 yards and two touchdowns. That has to be tightened up. I would not mind if during the bye week they started getting Bruton more reps.
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Old 10-17-2013, 05:55 AM   #46
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There is one big reason why the defense has struggled.

It is because of poor safety play against the pass. Nacho and Moore have both been substandard in this area. We just had a thread last week about nacho's struggles against the pass I just read today that Moore has been beaten on 15 of the 20 passes thrown toward him for 244 yards and two touchdowns. That has to be tightened up. I would not mind if during the bye week they started getting Bruton more reps.
It's a combination of things yes, but you're absolutely right here as well as NFLBronco in page 1 of this thread.

Where's our deep safety? Somebody tell me how many individual plays Raheem Moore has made against the pass?

I mean he has a ton of opportunities because we're among the last in the league in terms of passing attempts so where are all the pass breakups, ints, tight coverage from our safety over the top?

I can remember only two plays Raheem Moore has made this year in genuine pass defense. The first against Clark and B'more where the put a strong hit on him and seperate him from the ball, and the 2nd a deep interception against Eli Manning when they desperately threw a long hail mary and Moore somewhat stupidly intercepted a deep pass underthrown in the end zone on 4th down.

I genuinely thought Moore would develop as a coverage safety this year but his progress has left me very underwelmed.
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Old 10-17-2013, 06:15 AM   #47
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The dominance of the O is defining the nature of our D.

#1 against the run & #32 against the pass because

a.) our run defense is good (not #1 good, but good)
b.) our pass defense is bad (not #32 bad, but bad)
c.) (the kicker) teams stop trying to run and swap to pass, making the run defense look better and the pass defense look worse than they actually are.
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Old 10-17-2013, 06:19 AM   #48
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It's a combination of things yes, but you're absolutely right here as well as NFLBronco in page 1 of this thread.

Where's our deep safety? Somebody tell me how many individual plays Raheem Moore has made against the pass?

I mean he has a ton of opportunities because we're among the last in the league in terms of passing attempts so where are all the pass breakups, ints, tight coverage from our safety over the top?

I can remember only two plays Raheem Moore has made this year in genuine pass defense. The first against Clark and B'more where the put a strong hit on him and seperate him from the ball, and the 2nd a deep interception against Eli Manning when they desperately threw a long hail mary and Moore somewhat stupidly intercepted a deep pass underthrown in the end zone on 4th down.

I genuinely thought Moore would develop as a coverage safety this year but his progress has left me very underwelmed.
I don't think the Deep pass has been the weak link....we1ve been destroyed over the middle in the area of the dropping MLB and FS for the most part. There were a couple bombs in the Dallas game....but overall it's been medium chunks. Moore has been playing last line of defense way back. Probably schemed that way while we wait on getting our pass rush really back. I bet we see more plays out of the Safety position once we are at full strength again. Not what's up with Nacho though....he keeps creating more plays for the offense recently than making plays for the defense.

Quit hitting your own guys
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Old 10-17-2013, 09:22 AM   #49
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Other. IMO it's a combination of a lot of things.

Injuries-
Missing Von-
Score demanding it-
Champ out-

And, really, I think (as another poster mentioned) teams come in w/the mindset that they are going to throw a lot and test the deep ball often. Most team's typical game plans (50/50 pass run) aren't going to be able to get 40-50 points they feel they are going to need to hang in for 4 quarters.
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Old 10-17-2013, 09:59 AM   #50
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Considering we've played six games and in those six games gave up three big pass plays (around 80 yards each) on blown coverage/tackles....**** that's 40 ypg on only three plays. I'd say the sample size is really effecting us because of a handful of awful broken plays that were so big.
We've given up an astounding 35 passing plays of 20+ yards. That's #32 in the league. However, we've only give up 4 passing plays of 40+ yards.

The performance of the defense in terms of defending the pass, thus far, has been absolutely atrocious. Literally worst in the league.

Also, lets put the myth to bed that this team is facing many more passing attempts. Both the Vikings (42.6) and Eagles (43.8) defenses have seen more pass attempts per game than the Broncos (41.8) have.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorysta...ualified=false

I do think Von will help with this quite a bit. Although I'm absolutely worried about DRC. Watching the coaches film on rewind, it appears to me that he's completely lost when it comes to understanding where he's supposed to be. I've found 5 clear plays (in the last two games) where he failed to cover the guy he was supposed to (all resulted in 20+ yard gains). I found several others that I suspect he blew the coverage, but it's hard to know for sure.

Hopefully by the time the playoffs roll around he will have become more comfortable in the defense (or the coaching staff will have learned how to protect him a bit more) and the addition of Von, Champ, and a healthy Woodyard will help to put and end to much of this madness as well.

Last edited by enjolras; 10-17-2013 at 10:05 AM..
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