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Old 10-09-2013, 03:49 PM   #26
fontaine
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Originally Posted by DENVERDUI55 View Post
Socal is seeing what a lot of people are seeing. I went ahead and watched the first half and noted down Romo's time. He had 22 passes and only 6 pressures. Out of those 6 pressures only 1 was under 3 seconds(Jackson sack) and the other 2 sacks were 5 seconds or longer. Here is what I wrote down.

Romo's 1st pass-6 seconds in the pocket, no pressure big 25 yard gain.

2. 3 seconds hits first read for 14.

3. 4 seconds 10 yard gain.

4. 3 seconds and out for 10.

5. The Dez Bryant TD Romo had plenty of time to sit back and wait for 4 seconds while Bryant ran accross the field. He threw a nice touch pass to Dez. Broncos blitzed 6 on the play and they all got stoned.

6. First pressure of the game on a PA bootleg by Vickerson. Romo took off running forward and Escobar dropped a shuffle pass.

7. 3 seconds in the pocket and Phillips made a lunging attempt which Romo side stepped and sat for 2 more seconds before tossing incomplete pass which was really dropped.

8. Second pressure of the game by Wolfe. He gets pressure here(even though held like crazy) and Romo scrambles around breaks 2 tackles makes a pass to Witten.

9. 4 seconds screen set up for short gain.

10. Denver Blitzed which doesn't get there Romo steps up and fires a big gain to Witten after 4 seconds.

11. 4 seconds, no pressure Dez for 20.

12. 4 seconds, no pressure Escobar for 20.

13. Ayers sack which is 3rd pressure of the game.

14. Pot roast breaks free which Romo has no problem escaping and proceeds to hold the ball for 6 seconds while Witten gets open for 10.

15. 5 seconds standing in the pocket and Dez can't make the great one handed catch on the bullet.

16. 5 seconds no pressure Duke with the good coverage on incomplete pass to Witten at the goalline.

17. 5 seconds Romo holds on to the ball before back tracking and being sacked for 17 yd loss at 8 seconds.

18. Romo hits Dez for 12 at the back of his drop.

19. Malik sack best defensive line play yet.

20. 4 seconds Romo runs for short gain. Good Coverage down the field.

21. 3 seconds Romo slides left 10 yard gain.

22. This play was a joke. A little bit of pressure but nothing that Romo doesn't slide around. Stands there for 9 F$%KING seconds before throwing long pass to Williams to give the pokes 3 pts.

Romo had 5 plus seconds to throw on almost all his throws which is not good in the NFL for the defenses. He has great escape ability but he only uses it when he needs to and isn't afraid to sit in the pocket. Hopefully adding Von fixes this problem which I think it can to an extent.
Do you realise that a lot of Romo's first half "time" that you've put up there is based on 1st/2nd down throws where he's either rolling out, or working off play action that's designed to slow the pass rush when we had Vickerson/Knighton inside? Or when we went with 3 DL and not extra rushers?

Let's try this again with context shall we for just one drive (Dallas' 2nd Drive of the day you listed above).

Quote:
6. First pressure of the game on a PA bootleg by Vickerson. Romo took off running forward and Escobar dropped a shuffle pass.
--> That's right off a play action bootleg with our run base DL on first down, but we still managed to get pressure because Vickerson broke free of his guy.

Quote:
7. 3 seconds in the pocket and Phillips made a lunging attempt which Romo side stepped and sat for 2 more seconds before tossing incomplete pass which was really dropped.
--> Shotgun formation with empty backfield so clear pass rush play and Phillips did get pressure from a stunt inside.

Quote:
8. Second pressure of the game by Wolfe. He gets pressure here(even though held like crazy) and Romo scrambles around breaks 2 tackles makes a pass to Witten.
--> 3rd and 10 so a clear pass rush opportunity with a spread formation and lone back offset with Romo in shotgun. Again we got pressure in a clear pass play look even though Wolfe was held.

Quote:
9. 4 seconds screen set up for short gain.
--> 1st and 10 with Vickerson/Unrein inside and Romo setup a screen off play action - so how is this a pass rush opportunity?

Quote:
10. Denver Blitzed which doesn't get there Romo steps up and fires a big gain to Witten after 4 seconds.
--> 3rd and 8, Romo in shotgun look with spread formation and empty backfield. Clearly a pass rush opportunity but we went we a 3 DL look and Harris blitzed off the slot. So again how would you expect pass rush from the DL when the defensive play was to flood the secondary, go 3 DL and blitz off the slot?

Dallas then scored a TD on the ground.

We had three pass rush opportunities on that one drive. We got pressure on two of those plays from the DL and in another we went with 3 DL and tried to blitz off the slot CB.


See how that looks with context on down and distance, formation and look?

What you're basically doing wrong is looking at the play after the fact. In other words, 1st and 10, with our base run stopping DL, one or two RBs in the backfield, Romo works play action and ends up keeping and passing. How/why would you count that against our pass rush?

Last edited by fontaine; 10-09-2013 at 03:59 PM..
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Old 10-09-2013, 05:31 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by TheReverend View Post
Fan reaction:

QB completes pass - "We have no pressure!"
QB doesn't complete pass - "Our pressure caused that throw!"
I disagree with this

there were points in the game where Romo had 6-10 second to throw. Even on one of the sacks when the Cowboys were driving and deep in Denver territory, Romo had all day to throw. The pressure for most of the game, imo, was subpar for most of the afternoon.

edit for some clarity, I was more concerned with the edge rush than the interior. Our big DTs were able to create some pressure early on and flush Romo out, but the edge rushers for most of the game were swallowed up by the OTs.
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Old 10-09-2013, 05:35 PM   #28
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I disagree with this

there were points in the game where Romo had 6-10 second to throw. Even on one of the sacks when the Cowboys were driving and deep in Denver territory, Romo had all day to throw. The pressure for most of the game, imo, was subpar for most of the afternoon.

edit for some clarity, I was more concerned with the edge rush than the interior. Our big DTs were able to create some pressure early on and flush Romo out, but the edge rushers for most of the game were swallowed up by the OTs.
That happens sometimes. Expecting every single dropback to get quick pressure isn't realistic. It's going to happen.
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Old 10-09-2013, 05:59 PM   #29
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That happens sometimes. Expecting every single dropback to get quick pressure isn't realistic. It's going to happen.
totally agree. but it happened way too often in the Cowboy game and was the cause or the catalyst of so many defensive breakdowns, imo. There were breakdowns at every level in that game and the inability to stop a WR was another glaring one that could and should be remedied fairly easily so I'm not saying the entire 48 points was due solely to ineffective pass rush. But a good amount of it was.

I will try to rewatch the game at some point this week and post some specific examples.
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Old 10-09-2013, 06:12 PM   #30
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totally agree. but it happened way too often in the Cowboy game and was the cause or the catalyst of so many defensive breakdowns, imo. There were breakdowns at every level in that game and the inability to stop a WR was another glaring one that could and should be remedied fairly easily so I'm not saying the entire 48 points was due solely to ineffective pass rush. But a good amount of it was.

I will try to rewatch the game at some point this week and post some specific examples.
Then check them against fontaine's post and see if that leaves any (let alone a volume worth fretting over) unaccounted for.
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Old 10-09-2013, 06:46 PM   #31
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When you play press coverage...you better have your Dline pushing the pocket in first 2 to 3 seconds...at least on the edge - See NY Giants SB teams.

Very nicely done podcast guys. The intro was a nice touch...hahaa!
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Old 10-09-2013, 07:09 PM   #32
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When you play press coverage...you better have your Dline pushing the pocket in first 2 to 3 seconds...at least on the edge - See NY Giants SB teams.

Very nicely done podcast guys. The intro was a nice touch...hahaa!

I did not expect TJ to include the prepodcast banter. But it was pretty awesome.

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Old 10-09-2013, 07:59 PM   #33
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How/why would you count that against our pass rush?
If the pass rush wasn't an issue, why did you specifically say it was in this post?
Quote:
...we functionally broke down because of blown coverages, very weak DB play including some awful tackling and lack of a pass rush.
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpos...4&postcount=45

And also in this one?
Quote:
...CBs and Safeties got completely out of sync in their zone drops and we were down to one cover corner in DRC with almost no pass rush.
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpos...5&postcount=32

Did you change your mind?

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Old 10-09-2013, 08:11 PM   #34
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I like how at the beginning it sounds like Taco is on microphone in a super market.
I just figured he got the super awesome Moogerfooger MF-104 Analog Delay that DEATHSicle has been trying to save up for.

Good stuff as always guys I still have about 20 minutes to go. Glad you were able to cover this game!
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Old 10-10-2013, 12:54 AM   #35
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See how that looks with context on down and distance, formation and look?

What you're basically doing wrong is looking at the play after the fact. In other words, 1st and 10, with our base run stopping DL, one or two RBs in the backfield, Romo works play action and ends up keeping and passing. How/why would you count that against our pass rush?
Well that may work for a few plays but the defense knew that Dallas was going to be passing on almost every single play. They ran what 15 run plays and at least 10 of them were in the first half. Look we can agree to disagree and I hope to hell that I am wrong but Denver's pass rush with 4 guys isn't very good. I hope that Von fixes that but I have my doubts until I see it CONSISTENTLY.
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Old 10-10-2013, 01:43 AM   #36
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If the pass rush wasn't an issue, why did you specifically say it was in this post?
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpos...4&postcount=45

And also in this one?
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpos...5&postcount=32

Did you change your mind?
No, you just selectively stupified your response.

In both my responses above I talked about half our starters including Ayers not playing in the 2nd half so yes in the 2nd half without our key players, our pass rush was weak because it featured a 2nd/3rd string defense at key positions.

But you just left that part out and just cut out sections to suit yourself.
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Old 10-10-2013, 01:53 AM   #37
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Well that may work for a few plays but the defense knew that Dallas was going to be passing on almost every single play.
Maybe in the 2nd half yes, but in the first Dallas was still playing a balanced O working off play action, rollouts and one/two back sets. By the 2nd half when it was clearly a shootout, it was too late because our best pass rusher (Ayers) and our best blitzer were both out (Woodyard). Romo had a great individual game buying time in the pocket for at least 4-5 plays in the first half alone so I give him credit for that. We won't be facing that kind of QB every week.

Quote:
They ran what 15 run plays and at least 10 of them were in the first half. Look we can agree to disagree and I hope to hell that I am wrong but Denver's pass rush with 4 guys isn't very good. I hope that Von fixes that but I have my doubts until I see it CONSISTENTLY.
Well that depends on which 4 guys you mean? Our run base DL with Knighton/Vickerson or Unrein inside isn't going to generate pass rush on 1st downs especially against play action/screens/rollouts because the DL is playing run and/or reading pass. It is what it is.

But yes, on passing downs/situation our pass rush generally has been good enough with guys like Jackson/Ayers/Phillips.

Phillips and Ayers, each, have more QB hits/pressures/sacks than Dumervil did at this point last season after 5 games.

The biggest difference (as you say) is that we haven't come close to replacing Von. We've tried with multiple looks using Irving, Ihenacho, Harris etc to blitz etc but that's never going to replace a stud pass rusher.

Once Von comes back the hope is he can take up where he left off then we've got that edge and finisher in our pass rush.
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Old 10-10-2013, 05:50 AM   #38
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...so yes in the 2nd half without our key players, our pass rush was weak because it featured a 2nd/3rd string defense at key positions...
So how would you diagnose our defensive issues on Dallas' first two drives of the game where they drove for TD's? Before Woodyard, Harris, or Ayers were hurt?
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Old 10-10-2013, 06:32 AM   #39
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No, you just selectively stupified your response.

In both my responses above I talked about half our starters including Ayers not playing in the 2nd half so yes in the 2nd half without our key players, our pass rush was weak because it featured a 2nd/3rd string defense at key positions.

But you just left that part out and just cut out sections to suit yourself.
^ this. One thing you forgot to add is after Romo's slippery heroics making big plays outside the pocket, the Broncos also knowingly slowed the pass rush down and played some contain elements to attempt to prevent Romo from doing more of that (which didn't work )
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Old 10-10-2013, 07:20 AM   #40
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So how would you diagnose our defensive issues on Dallas' first two drives of the game where they drove for TD's? Before Woodyard, Harris, or Ayers were hurt?

The second TD drive was a result of a fumble by Decker, giving Dallas the football at the Bronco 45. So the defense had been on the field for close to seven minutes the first drive, got 1:30 worth of rest, and then had to go right back out there. So in the first 11 1/2 minutes of the game, Dallas had 10 of it.

Plus, it was a shootout. No one can exactly look at either defense and point out superior play for either. Not entirely sure why you keep picking at it, either. Our defense got shredded...which happens in a shoot out. We lost Ayers, Harris and Woodyard for large chunks of the game. We were missing Von and Champ. So tell me, how many defenses can stand to lose 5 starters and present a viable unit? Did you really expect Bolden or Robinson to be sufficient replacements for Harris or Woodyard?

And on top of all that, our defense was the one that made the plays that ultimately won the game for Denver.

So...chill out. If Denver is giving up 48 points later on this season you may have a point, but we wont know until all of our starters are playing together.

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Old 10-10-2013, 08:32 AM   #41
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So how would you diagnose our defensive issues on Dallas' first two drives of the game where they drove for TD's? Before Woodyard, Harris, or Ayers were hurt?
Diagnose? Can't. I'm not and don't claim to be any kind of expert.

All I can do is look at what's obvious and stands out which is usually the physical play. All the rest (the majority) of it like schemes, assignments and responsibilities are a blind spot.

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Old 10-10-2013, 08:39 AM   #42
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Diagnose? Can't. I'm not and don't claim to be any kind of expert.

All I can do is look at what's obvious and stands out which is usually the physical play. All the rest (the majority) of it like schemes, assignments and responsibilities are a blind spot.

I know you're being descriptive and honest about your post and post history, but you shouldn't sell your contributions short in anyway. Easily a top 5 contributor (with ACTUAL contributions) while most repeat media-buzzwords out of context that they don't understand.
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:59 AM   #43
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It would appear that Matt Bowen agrees with those who think the pass rush was an issue.

Quote:
Tony Romo lit up the Broncos defense on Sunday, and it started with the lack of pressure up front from the Denver defensive line. Romo had too much time to manage the pocket, extend plays and allow his receivers to convert routes. And in the red zone, that is a nightmare for defensive backs.

I broke down Peyton Manning and the Broncos offense on Wednesday. Thatís a top-tier unit right now. But without the skill set (and speed) of Miller as an edge-rusher, this defense really struggled to contain and collapse the pocket versus the Cowboys.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...nto-nfl-week-6
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Old 10-10-2013, 02:13 PM   #44
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I know you're being descriptive and honest about your post and post history, but you shouldn't sell your contributions short in anyway. Easily a top 5 contributor (with ACTUAL contributions) while most repeat media-buzzwords out of context that they don't understand.
Hey, always good to talk football.

I'm just excited because this could really be the year for us.
- Patriots down Wilfork/Hernandez and not near the level on O as last year
- Schaub dragging down Houston
- Steelers completely out of contention
- Baltimore struggling as well

I really think this could be the year where Denver has a clean path to the championship.

The usual AFC contenders are out and the only team that could stand in our way is Indy.

Really, the ONLY serious threat to Denver, is well Denver itself in the form of injuries (especially to our starters) and we've had more than our fair share already.
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Old 10-10-2013, 02:16 PM   #45
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Hey, always good to talk football.

I'm just excited because this could really be the year for us.
- Patriots down Wilfork/Hernandez and not near the level on O as last year
- Schaub dragging down Houston
- Steelers completely out of contention
- Baltimore struggling as well

I really think this could be the year where Denver has a clean path to the championship.

The usual AFC contenders are out and the only team that could stand in our way is Indy.

Really, the ONLY serious threat to Denver, is well Denver itself in the form of injuries (especially to our starters) and we've had more than our fair share already.
The currently building setup of Broncos-Colts in the AFCCG is about as drama filled as you can get.

Shame the Giants are out. Would be awesome for Peyton to slay Brady in the Div round, Luck in the Championship game and his brother in the Superbowl.
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