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Old 10-01-2013, 01:34 PM   #76
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TJ is about as good at this political thing as he is at evaluating Bronco QBs.
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:31 PM   #77
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how you figure? dems will probably control all 3 house come 2014.
If you say so. When is the last time the democrats managed to turn out a voting base during a mid term?
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:57 PM   #78
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If you say so. When is the last time the democrats managed to turn out a voting base during a mid term?
counting on low turn out is always a good strategy, it worked in 2010.
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:59 PM   #79
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It's not intended to be a solutions brief. It's a plan overview. Of course the devils are in the detail. As a government program, I don't have a lot of faith in it, but given the awful rollout happening today, how could it be worse?

Obamacare is crushing for small businesses. I don't know how anyone can even start a new business in this environment. This thing is going to be a drag on the economy if we let it continue.

I personally think it has a strong chance of repeal after 2014.
How is that? How many startups begin with 50+ FTE's?
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Old 10-01-2013, 03:41 PM   #80
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How is that? How many startups begin with 50+ FTE's?
apparently all of them according to TJ.
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Old 10-02-2013, 10:34 PM   #81
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So there's a new strategy making the rounds - we'll see soon how real it is. But basically it's this: rather than yielding to Reid and Obama's desire to shut down the government over a delay, the Republicans in the House may start to pass individual budget measures for essential things, and leave things that aren't deemed essential to just simply go without funding - perhaps even permanently.

In the process, Obamacare simply doesn't get funded, and the Republicans start efforts to advance their own plan which has been in development over the last several months.

Apparently the establishment Republicans like Peter King are howling over this, but Boehner is faced with either doing this, sitting on the bill he just proposed, or hitting the nuclear button and moving against the base and siding with the Democrats.
How'd that work out? Looks like Obamacare is still fully funded and the GOP looks like d-cks to the public. Who could've saw that coming?
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Old 10-02-2013, 11:14 PM   #82
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How'd that work out? Looks like Obamacare is still fully funded and the GOP looks like d-cks to the public. Who could've saw that coming?
Meeeeee! I saw it coming.

TJ is a rank amateur when it comes to politics.

No wonder there's a policy on callout threads on this site.



....hear me now and believe me later, though.

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Old 10-03-2013, 01:41 AM   #83
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I'm not sure what you're talking about. So far this has played out exactly like I had stated, though I didn't go so far as to predict that we'd actually shut down the government. Everything else has been spot on, from the filibuster, to the tactics that led to Monday night.

Your whole "oh look the Republicans look like jerks." Guess what? They look like jerks before this all went down. And as for my part, I couldn't care less how the Republicans look - I haven't voted for a single Republican president in my entire voting life. I hate most of these guys just as much or more than most of the liberals on this site.

That said, this is some of the best political theatre in the last hundred years. I had a small window of insight leading into this, and nailed it point for point, but I couldn't guess where it goes from here given how squishy the situation is.

In my opinion, history will remember this as something Obama created with his tactics to pass healthcare reform with zero republican buy-in. But there's a lot of history still to happen before that becomes retrospectively clear.

I'm not sure what's wrong with you. You can't have a conversation about politics without needing to make it personal. While you attack me, I've leveled exactly zero personal attacks on anyone else, choosing instead to focus on the events that are happening. So go ahead "call me out." What do I care? I'm focused on the substance and couldn't care less about your silly personal attacks.
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Old 10-03-2013, 01:52 AM   #84
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How'd that work out? Looks like Obamacare is still fully funded and the GOP looks like d-cks to the public. Who could've saw that coming?
It worked out pretty good actually. Reid looked pretty silly denying healthcare to those needing it from the NIH, and the veteran thing is being pointed at Obama. The Republicans did a really good job with the visuals on that one. You must have thought that I thought that it would be a home run or something? I was just reporting on the tactic because this place seems more interested in bickering with each other than actually following politics. The circle jerk aside, I noted that my threads following the actual happenings of the day make up the top three threads, so I must be doing something right.

In any case, I'm not sure why you think the GOP is looking all that bad. I can only guess that you're getting all your news from a liberal echo chamber. My political news surfing takes a pretty broad path, and it's not looking as bad for the Republicans as you think it is. Pretty well, both sides are taking plenty of hits out there - though not on MSNBC, where Republicans are taking 100% of the blame. No one cares about MSNBC except the wonkiest of political wonks, which include me - I am an avid follower of Morning Joe, Hardball, and Maddow.

This has the potential of going on for some time. They're talking about a grand bargain, but Boehner will be seen as a loser unless he walks away with a year delay in the individual mandate. I'm starting to wonder if we're going to go off the fiscal cliff.

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Old 10-03-2013, 07:55 AM   #85
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I agree that it was a mistake, politically, for Obama to shove through this plan without minority support, but on the other hand, I doubt we've had this kind of radical extremism from a minority party since the Civil War. This isn't like the old days when Reagan would have Tip O'Neill over for lunch. Those days are gone. The two parties get in a room now and the radical Right Wingers just say, "Agree with us or we leave." That's their position on pretty much every issue.

I always remember the story of Gingrich, when he had all the power, sitting down to meetings with the Dems (who were then in the minority in both houses). The Rethuglicans would discuss the issue without asking the Dems for a single opinion, and when they left the room, Gingrich turned out the lights, leaving the Dems in darkness. This **** has been going on for a long time. The Right Wing caucus has no intention of making even the slightest compromise on any issue. Like the congressman from Indiana said yesterday, they know they're going to get something out of this, they're just not sure what, yet. Partisanship for partisanship's sake. Obama is right on this one, the ideologues are wagging Boehner.
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Old 10-03-2013, 08:34 AM   #86
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There is some sanity on the right. Not much, but some.

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When I think of the Republican Party, I donít think of principled conservative legislators who are men and women of vision strategy. I think of ideologues who are prepared to wreck things to get their way. They have confused prudence ó the queen of virtues, and the cardinal virtue of conservative politics ó with weakness. I know Iím very much a minority among conservatives in this, but the behavior of Congressional Republicans pushed me out of the party two years ago, even though I almost always vote Republican, or withhold my vote.

I am not a liberal, and do not want to vote for liberals, especially on social policy. But I told a Louisiana conservative friend the other day that the Congressional Republicans are making me consider the previously unthinkable: throwing my vote away by voting for a Democrat in the special election next month to replace my GOP congressman, who just resigned to take another job. The GOP candidates in this local race are hot and heavy to overthrow Obamacare. I think about how poor this district is ó 26 percent of the district lives in poverty, making it one of the poorest Congressional districts in America ó and how badly we need jobs and economic growth, and I think: What kind of world do these people live in?
http://www.theamericanconservative.c...over-the-cliff
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Old 10-03-2013, 08:47 AM   #87
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I agree that it was a mistake, politically, for Obama to shove through this plan without minority support, but on the other hand, I doubt we've had this kind of radical extremism from a minority party since the Civil War. This isn't like the old days when Reagan would have Tip O'Neill over for lunch. Those days are gone. The two parties get in a room now and the radical Right Wingers just say, "Agree with us or we leave." That's their position on pretty much every issue.

I always remember the story of Gingrich, when he had all the power, sitting down to meetings with the Dems (who were then in the minority in both houses). The Rethuglicans would discuss the issue without asking the Dems for a single opinion, and when they left the room, Gingrich turned out the lights, leaving the Dems in darkness. This **** has been going on for a long time. The Right Wing caucus has no intention of making even the slightest compromise on any issue. Like the congressman from Indiana said yesterday, they know they're going to get something out of this, they're just not sure what, yet. Partisanship for partisanship's sake. Obama is right on this one, the ideologues are wagging Boehner.
Tip O'Neill shut down the government seven times during Reagans 8 years. Like many other things this particular outrage du jour is deeply partisan.
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Old 10-03-2013, 08:58 AM   #88
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http://mobile.usnews.com/opinion/blo...nment-shutdown

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The real story is a lot more complicated than that. To find the real start date, one has to go all the way to the Reagan administration when congressional Democrats under the late Thomas P. "Tip" O'Neill realized the only way to keep the liberal welfare state afloat against the onslaught of Reaganism was to abandon the law governing the spending process. Instead of budgets and authorization bills and appropriations, O'Neill and company forced on Reagan massive, year-long continuing resolutions full of things that had never been taken up before just before zero hour. They gave the president a choice: Sign it or the government shuts down.

This was the beginning of the breakdown of regular order in federal spending. It has progressed to the point where both sides have routinely used it as a strategy to force concessions from the president to raise spending, when the Democrats were in charge on Capitol Hill, and to lower it when the Republicans were in the majority.
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Old 10-03-2013, 12:48 PM   #89
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Tip O'Neill shut down the government seven times during Reagans 8 years. Like many other things this particular outrage du jour is deeply partisan.
Go back and look at those shutdowns. They were over budget numbers. Some of them lasted only hours. Most lasted no more than two days. One was because they just didn't get around to it. Was there a single shutdown like this, where extremists held the country hostage in order to take down a law they didn't like? Nope. And you don't think the extremists won't do the same thing about the debt ceiling? Another case of false equivalency.
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Old 10-03-2013, 01:08 PM   #90
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Go back and look at those shutdowns. They were over budget numbers. Some of them lasted only hours. Most lasted no more than two days. One was because they just didn't get around to it. Was there a single shutdown like this, where extremists held the country hostage in order to take down a law they didn't like? Nope. And you don't think the extremists won't do the same thing about the debt ceiling? Another case of false equivalency.
I don't see the difference. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
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Old 10-03-2013, 01:22 PM   #91
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Go back and look at those shutdowns. They were over budget numbers. Some of them lasted only hours. Most lasted no more than two days. One was because they just didn't get around to it. Was there a single shutdown like this, where extremists held the country hostage in order to take down a law they didn't like? Nope. And you don't think the extremists won't do the same thing about the debt ceiling? Another case of false equivalency.
I think I heard that the government was shut down for 12 total days during Reagan's term.

And you can make anything about the "budget" if you want to frame it that way.

Anyway, read the article again. Tip basically inserted all the controversial stuff last minute so he could "hold the country hostage" over things Reagan would've otherwise never supported. World's smallest Violin is playing. Playing for the Democrats crying while reaping what they sowed.
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Old 10-03-2013, 02:24 PM   #92
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It's easy to learn if you pay attention. Previous shutdowns, from Carter on up, were over actual budget items still under contention. Understand? Both sides were negotiating over what actually got into the budget and what didn't. Reagan gave as good as he got. The difference this time? Radical extremists are trying to defund an already passed law for which the funds had already been appropriated. The ACA was already passed, already funded, and implemented a few days ago. The states already have the money. This radical fringe is holding the budget hostage to go after legislation they don't like. So why can't any party do this in the future?

Let's say one party passes legislation and then, in the midterms, gets tossed and the other party gets the majority. Could the new majority party then freeze the next budget in order to take down legislation that passed when the other party was in power? And could there be any statute of limitations? Is all legislation subject to budget hostage taking down the road?
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Old 10-03-2013, 02:25 PM   #93
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I think I heard that the government was shut down for 12 total days during Reagan's term.

And you can make anything about the "budget" if you want to frame it that way.

Anyway, read the article again. Tip basically inserted all the controversial stuff last minute so he could "hold the country hostage" over things Reagan would've otherwise never supported. World's smallest Violin is playing. Playing for the Democrats crying while reaping what they sowed.
http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...-andrew-stiles

The shutdowns of the Reagan-OíNeill era, on the other hand, were more budget-focused, and the disputes they involved were over a wider range of policies. They also took less time to resolve. The first such shutdown occurred in November 1981, less than a year into Reaganís first term. Reagan had demanded at least $4 billion in domestic-spending cuts, and when Congress did not oblige, he vetoed a spending package, triggering a government shutdown. Technically, the shutdown lasted only a few hours, until Congress approved a three-week spending resolution to give lawmakers time to negotiate a long-term deal.
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Old 10-03-2013, 02:51 PM   #94
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http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...-andrew-stiles

The shutdowns of the Reagan-OíNeill era, on the other hand, were more budget-focused, and the disputes they involved were over a wider range of policies. They also took less time to resolve. The first such shutdown occurred in November 1981, less than a year into Reaganís first term. Reagan had demanded at least $4 billion in domestic-spending cuts, and when Congress did not oblige, he vetoed a spending package, triggering a government shutdown. Technically, the shutdown lasted only a few hours, until Congress approved a three-week spending resolution to give lawmakers time to negotiate a long-term deal.
Read the whole article. The part where Democrats took multiple shutdown opportunities to joust over abortion really undermines your point.
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Old 10-03-2013, 02:54 PM   #95
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Read the whole article. The part where Democrats took multiple shutdown opportunities to joust over abortion really undermines your point.
Oh, I did read it. Those were Dixiecrats. They're all Rethuglicans now.
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Old 10-03-2013, 02:56 PM   #96
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Oh, I did read it. Those were Dixiecrats. They're all Rethuglicans now.
Did KKK Byrd (D) have some sort of deathbed conversion I never heard about?
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Old 10-03-2013, 02:57 PM   #97
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Oh, I did read it. Those were Dixiecrats. They're all Rethuglicans now.
Don't bother. You're talking to the guy who used the same tack to try saying that Republicans were the reason for the Civil Rights Act while demonizing the Democrats for having several in their party who fought against it. Saaaaaame thing. The Dixiecrats.

He loves those guys, though.
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Old 10-03-2013, 02:58 PM   #98
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Did KKK Byrd (D) have some sort of deathbed conversion I never heard about?
Oh boy! One guy...

How's about we talk about Jesse Helms and company...you know, your boy Cruz's hero?
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Old 10-03-2013, 03:30 PM   #99
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Did KKK Byrd (D) have some sort of deathbed conversion I never heard about?
You really need to read the article. It was the House Dixiecrats that stalled the budget over abortion, not the Senate. Byrd was in the Senate. He was on the other side of the issue.
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Old 10-03-2013, 06:17 PM   #100
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Statistically he will get cancer or have a heart attack.... 100k will be gone for cancer treatment, and a few days in cardiac ICU should blow through his assets pretty quickly... After that, probably begging to get on the public dole to save his life... That's what all the hardliners at my hospital do... Hardcore until lung cancer is stealing your breathe, then all the sudden Socialsim is a pretty good option...


You have no brain, and even less of a clue. Socialism doesn't work. Never has, and never will.

You live your life trembling at the thought of death as you hasten toward it. I live my life without fear, and am well prepared for my last day.

Sucks to be you.
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