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Old 10-11-2013, 01:22 PM   #601
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Contributed to my HSA today. Feels good man.
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Old 10-11-2013, 02:14 PM   #602
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No, not replace. Both U.S. and Singapore are 4-payer systems. You would be surprised how similar both systems are.

Simply reform the current system with the several cost-cutting measures that I have laid out in previous posts.
The US Government does not either own, and/or manage/regulate every hospital in the country. Singapore does. That's how Hospital costs are controlled.

The mandate in the US has cause an uprising amongst the GOP, Singapore accepts it without comment. Of course, owning the media helps the government control dissent. Even news sites and popular bloggers on the internet must get a government license.

Healthcare costs in Singapore are a fraction of those in the US, again, controlled by government intervention.

The US has a 40% obesity rate, Singaporeans have some of the best and healthiest food on the planet. They don't spend a lot of time at the doctor's office. Their system isn't literally 'weighed' down by its population forcing it to spend billions in ER visits alone. Dollars that we who ARE insured must carry.

Singapore is a 'city state' of 4.6 million people run by a 'benevolent' or 'benign' dictatorship, they make the rules without opposition.

The US government can't agree on anything right now and would rather shut itself down than accept 'mandates.'

Exactly how is the US healthcare market going to turn itself on its head and slash costs by around 14% of GNP and still deliver excellent healthcare?
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Old 10-11-2013, 02:26 PM   #603
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Am I the only one who sees the resemblance between Ted Cruz and Joe McCarthy?
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Old 10-11-2013, 02:27 PM   #604
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Am I the only one who sees the resemblance between Ted Cruz and Joe McCarthy?
Apparently not.

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Old 10-11-2013, 02:55 PM   #605
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Exactly how is the US healthcare market going to turn itself on its head and slash costs by around 14% of GNP and still deliver excellent healthcare?
It's not and according to what I hear...it's not excellent to begin with. However, If we want to control costs, and since quality is an issue already, time for the single payer-state-controlled-nationalized healthcare.


It's the fiscally conservative thing to do.
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Old 10-11-2013, 03:22 PM   #606
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It's not and according to what I hear...it's not excellent to begin with. However, If we want to control costs, and since quality is an issue already, time for the single payer-state-controlled-nationalized healthcare.


It's the fiscally conservative thing to do.
Single payer of some sort may well be the way forward for the US. All healthcare costs need to be reigned in to at least 50% of their current levels. Countries with single payer, pay at least half what the US public pays for exactly the same drug, from the same manufacturer.

Like Singapore, all hospital charges , right down to the aspirin level, need to be openly be published for each patient's procedure.
It's the only industry I can think of that offers services while refusing to reveal the cost.....until after the service is completed and you get the bill. Surprise!

That would be easy to mandate and would become an important part of the debate.
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Old 10-11-2013, 06:03 PM   #607
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The US Government does not either own, and/or manage/regulate every hospital in the country. Singapore does. That's how Hospital costs are controlled.
Simply separating the public and private hospitals would be a good start. Rather than instituting price controls on common surgical procedures, Medicare just sets a low re-imbursement rate (which shifts all the costs to the private sector). That drives costs up for everyone, because doctors overbill, and give more procedures than are necessary. A little bit of constructive regulation is all that's needed.

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The mandate in the US has cause an uprising amongst the GOP, Singapore accepts it without comment. Of course, owning the media helps the government control dissent. Even news sites and popular bloggers on the internet must get a government license.
If people could keep their money (in an HSA), instead of throwing it away in the form of a fine, or on insurance premiums...it would be a lot different. The bronze-plan mandate is over-the-top (and redistributes income). Promoting individual responsibility with mandatory HSA contributions reduces costs drastically. Throwing money towards insurance companies increases costs drastically.

I would actively support an an HSA 'opt-out'. Even a catastrophic plan 'opt-out' would be far more likeable than being forced to purchase a highly discriminatory 'bronze plan'.

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Healthcare costs in Singapore are a fraction of those in the US, again, controlled by government intervention.
Private practice free-market family healthcare comprise 80% of healthcare transactions in Singapore, and is largely unregulated (not controlled) by the Singapore government.

The price of office visits, basic medical procedures are all uncontrolled. The only price controls in Singapore are for typical hospital procedures (like major surgeries).


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Originally Posted by DenverBrit View Post
The US has a 40% obesity rate, Singaporeans have some of the best and healthiest food on the planet. They don't spend a lot of time at the doctor's office. Their system isn't literally 'weighed' down by its population forcing it to spend billions in ER visits alone. Dollars that we who ARE insured must carry.
Making individuals responsible for their health by charging fee-per-service, and mandating HSA's gives people INCENTIVE to stay healthy. Offering 'free' healthcare for non-taxpayers provides NO INCENTIVE to stay healthy. People go to the ER and don't pay, because there is no consequence. Make these individuals RESPONSIBLE for their healthcare costs (if you don't pay, you are automatically enrolled in the State plan (with a charge)) and behavior would dramatically change.

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Singapore is a 'city state' of 4.6 million people run by a 'benevolent' or 'benign' dictatorship, they make the rules without opposition.
Rules are only effective if they work. The blue-print is there. I believe the entire world is headed toward the Singapore model (even if it takes 100 years), the only question is how long it takes the US.


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Exactly how is the US healthcare market going to turn itself on its head and slash costs by around 14% of GNP and still deliver excellent healthcare?
Only minor reforms are necessary to begin bending the cost-curve down.

1. Limiting taxpayer liability by block-grant funding Medicare (Paul Ryan's plan).
2. Reforming Medicaid to fee-per-service (small fee like Florida)
3. Instituting some price-controls for end-of-life, and major medical procedures
4. Mandating 6% payroll contribution for family, portable HSA's (instead of mandating insurance).
5. Legaliza 'Catastrophic' plans that can be purchased across state lines
6. Legalize drug-reimportation (like Maine)
7. Tort reform

Those minor changes could all be implemented in one bill. Defeating the Medical-Industrial complex is all that's necessary. Obama empowered it even more.

U.S. Healthcare spending would drop almost overnight. In 5 years, I bet we would be at ~10% GDP in healthcare spending (and dropping).

Last edited by pricejj; 10-11-2013 at 06:06 PM..
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Old 10-11-2013, 06:41 PM   #608
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pricejj is backpedaling on his claims of a laissez-faire medical Utopia in Singapore so quickly that his cardiovascular health is improving rapidly.
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Old 10-11-2013, 07:45 PM   #609
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To answer the thread question....yes...obamacare can be overturned......just like prohibition was after about a decade or so. Just have to wait long enough for it to prove itself unmanageable and adverse to the health and well being of the general population..which it will degrade to eventually. Have no fear.
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Old 10-11-2013, 07:53 PM   #610
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Have no fear.
Since when do righties declaim their most powerful political tool?
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Old 10-11-2013, 08:01 PM   #611
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pricejj is backpedaling on his claims of a laissez-faire medical Utopia in Singapore so quickly that his cardiovascular health is improving rapidly.
On the contrary. Look at all my posts. I have always promoted Singapore, because it is the best of both worlds.

If you want a 'safety net' (which I don't deny), and taxpayers are going to support that 'safety net' (which I don't deny), then you must limit taxpayer liability...

...unlike in the US where unlimited and unchecked taxpayer liability has caused skyrocketing healthcare costs ever since Medicare was introduced in 1965.

The most effective way to limit taxpayer liability (in the public healthcare sector) is by price controls. After all, there is no competition in government programs.

On the other hand, the invisible hand, competition, fee-for-service, and individual responsibility (with HSA's) keep prices low (without the influence of government spending) and keep quality high, in the private healthcare sector.

Best of both worlds. The Singaporeans have figured it out.
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Old 10-11-2013, 08:03 PM   #612
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On the contrary. Look at all my posts. I have always promoted Singapore, because it is the best of both worlds.
A command-and-control society is the "best", eh?

But of course a righty would say that.
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Old 10-11-2013, 08:07 PM   #613
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Single payer of some sort may well be the way forward for the US. All healthcare costs need to be reigned in to at least 50% of their current levels.
Your math is off. Germany and Canada both spend 12% of GDP on healthcare. US spends 17.9% of GDP on healthcare. On top of that, single-payer costs increase faster than inflation.

In contrast, Singapore spends 4% of GDP on healthcare.


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Countries with single payer, pay at least half what the US public pays for exactly the same drug, from the same manufacturer.
That is for two reasons:
1. The rest of the world cost-shifts ALL of the R&D costs for drugs onto US taxpayers. Someone has to pay for these drugs to be developed.
2. Unfortunately, Democrats have voted down (repeatedly) laws allowing drug-reimportation, which would have allowed US residents free-market drug costs.

Fortunately, Maine just passed a law legalizing drug-reimportation. If the federal Democrats refuse, we will just have to pass drug-reimportation state-by-state.

Problem solved.

Last edited by pricejj; 10-11-2013 at 08:11 PM..
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Old 10-11-2013, 11:02 PM   #614
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Pricejj,

Too bad the republicans just ignored the problem a few years ago when they had control of Congress and the WH. We could have a republican plan in place right now. Bummer.

(Actually we do have a republican plan in place but you know what I mean. )
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Old 10-12-2013, 12:54 PM   #615
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To answer the thread question....yes...obamacare can be overturned......just like prohibition was after about a decade or so. Just have to wait long enough for it to prove itself unmanageable and adverse to the health and well being of the general population..which it will degrade to eventually. Have no fear.
Good luck taking away 30 million people's health insurance. Sounds like a winnable fight!
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Old 10-12-2013, 12:57 PM   #616
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I'm starting to see a trend amongst "libertarians" who are beginning to side with single-payer. Not all out, but a movement like where gay marriage and marijuana was a couple years ago, but a trend none the less. Seems inevitable.
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Old 10-12-2013, 02:07 PM   #617
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Good luck taking away 30 million people's health insurance. Sounds like a winnable fight!
. 30 million!
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Old 10-12-2013, 03:39 PM   #618
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. 30 million!
Yep.
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Old 10-12-2013, 04:07 PM   #619
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Your math is off. Germany and Canada both spend 12% of GDP on healthcare. US spends 17.9% of GDP on healthcare. On top of that, single-payer costs increase faster than inflation.

In contrast, Singapore spends 4% of GDP on healthcare.




That is for two reasons:
1. The rest of the world cost-shifts ALL of the R&D costs for drugs onto US taxpayers. Someone has to pay for these drugs to be developed.
2. Unfortunately, Democrats have voted down (repeatedly) laws allowing drug-reimportation, which would have allowed US residents free-market drug costs.


Fortunately, Maine just passed a law legalizing drug-reimportation. If the federal Democrats refuse, we will just have to pass drug-reimportation state-by-state.

Problem solved.

I recall Bush and the Republican Senate opposing the House bill to allow imported drugs.

House OKs buying of imported drugs / Bush administration, Senate GOP oppose cost-saving measure
Zachary Coile, Victoria Colliver, Chronicle Staff Writers
Published 4:00 am, Saturday, July 26, 2003

http://www.sfgate.com/health/article...sh-2575730.php

As to why drugs are much more expensive in the US, it's about fat profits and lobbying!

Quote:
According to Barlett and Steele in Time Magazine in 2004, "The prices Americans pay for prescription drugs, which are far higher than those paid by citizens of any other developed country, help explain why the pharmaceutical industry is — and has been for years — the most profitable of all businesses in the U.S. In the annual Fortune 500 survey, the pharmaceutical industry topped the list of the most profitable industries, with a return of 17% on revenue.

Pharmaceutical companies argue that the prices they set are necessary in order to continue to fund research. 11% of drug candidates that enter clinical trials are successful and receive approval for sale.[6] Critics of pharmaceutical companies point out that only a small portion of the drug companies' expenditures are used for research and development, with the majority of their money being spent in the areas of marketing and administration.

The pharmaceutical industry has thousands of lobbyists in Washington, DC, that lobby Congress and protect their interests. The pharmaceutical industry spent $855 million, more than any other industry, on lobbying activities from 1998 to 2006, according to the non-partisan Center for Public Integrity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescri..._United_States
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Old 10-12-2013, 04:24 PM   #620
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Originally Posted by pricejj View Post
Your math is off. Germany and Canada both spend 12% of GDP on healthcare. US spends 17.9% of GDP on healthcare. On top of that, single-payer costs increase faster than inflation.

In contrast, Singapore spends 4% of GDP on healthcare.
The Government of Singapore spend 4% of GDP on healthcare which covers about 33% of the total cost. In total 12% of Singapore's GDP is spend on healthcare. That is perfectly on par with what many single payer systems do.

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That is for two reasons:
1. The rest of the world cost-shifts ALL of the R&D costs for drugs onto US taxpayers. Someone has to pay for these drugs to be developed.
2. Unfortunately, Democrats have voted down (repeatedly) laws allowing drug-reimportation, which would have allowed US residents free-market drug costs.

Fortunately, Maine just passed a law legalizing drug-reimportation. If the federal Democrats refuse, we will just have to pass drug-reimportation state-by-state.

Problem solved.

Z you really don't do a lot of medical research do you? The entire budget of the NIH matches what Zanofi, Roche, GSK and Novartis spend on research combined not counting the fact that the EU and constituent nations combined have a bigger medical research budget than the NIH. The US tax payers pay a very small fraction of medical RD costs.
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Old 10-12-2013, 06:07 PM   #621
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Originally Posted by DenverBrit View Post
I recall Bush and the Republican Senate opposing the House bill to allow imported drugs.

House OKs buying of imported drugs / Bush administration, Senate GOP oppose cost-saving measure
Zachary Coile, Victoria Colliver, Chronicle Staff Writers
Published 4:00 am, Saturday, July 26, 2003

http://www.sfgate.com/health/article...sh-2575730.php

As to why drugs are much more expensive in the US, it's about fat profits and lobbying!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescri..._United_States
More proof pjj is FOS.
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Old 10-12-2013, 10:41 PM   #622
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More proof pjj is FOS.
In case anyone still needs proof.
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Old 10-12-2013, 10:42 PM   #623
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I'm starting to see a trend amongst "libertarians" who are beginning to side with single-payer. Not all out, but a movement like where gay marriage and marijuana was a couple years ago, but a trend none the less. Seems inevitable.
Chalk it off to "you can fool some of the people some of the time..."

The GOP/Billionaire's Club charade can't last forever.
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Old 10-13-2013, 12:24 PM   #624
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The Verdict Is In: Shutdown Stinks for GOP

----------------

In a closed door meeting this week, Republican Sen. Ted Cruz, who is one of the architects of the GOP’s shutdown strategy to demand the elimination of Obamacare, presented his colleagues with his own take on polling, arguing that if the GOP only stays the course it will improve its standing with the public. But most of his fellow Republicans, who cite almost every public and independent poll, feel that strategy is doomed to failure.

One congressional Republican aide, who would only speak on the condition of anonymity, said the party’s pathway out is clear: “Surrender. If we’re lucky, conditional surrender.”

Read more: http://swampland.time.com/2013/10/11...#ixzz2hcyrBvLn

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Old 10-13-2013, 12:29 PM   #625
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Obamacare Has Gotten More Popular Since The GOP Shut Down The Government To Defund It

------------------

According to a new poll, Obamacare is actually gaining in popularity at the same time as the Republican Party has taken extreme measures to take a stand against it.

A new NBC-Wall Street Journal poll finds that 38 percent of Americans say Obamacare is a good idea, which represents a 7-point jump from last month. It’s the third-highest popularity rating for Obamacare — which typically doesn’t poll well as a whole, even though Americans tend to support its individual provisions — since the health law was first enacted.

The poll also finds that 50 percent of voters don’t want to eliminate funding for the health reform law, and the vast majority are opposed to tying Obamacare to the ongoing negotiations over the government shutdown. Just 23 percent of Americans say they want to continue the current shutdown to sabotage the health law.

-------------

On MSNBC on Friday afternoon, Rep. Peter King (R-NY) responded to the news that the health reform law is gaining popularity by suggesting that “no one has done more to strengthen Obamacare” than Ted Cruz. King pointed out that Cruz’s “maniacal crusade” to shut down the government over health reform has given the anti-Obamacare movement a bad name, so even the Americans who would have otherwise opposed the law are now shying away from being associated with Cruz.


http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013...-popular-poll/


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