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Old 10-04-2013, 12:41 PM   #426
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Man! I would hate to live in Libertarian World. No hospitals. No museums. No libraries. No highways. No public parks. I guess no national parks either. No thanks.
Um, what? lol
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:41 PM   #427
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Um... no they can't. The PPACA requires insurance companies to spend 80% of their revenues on patient care. That prevents any such "milking."
On my care?
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:44 PM   #428
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On my care?
Yes.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:46 PM   #429
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I've got a shotgun and a pistol. Ergo, I do not need some bloated military to protect me or my home. I can do that myself. I was in the Army Infantry. I know what to do. Ergo, I refuse to pay any portion of taxes that go to support a military. I no longer have children in school, so I refuse to pay for education too. I'm opting out.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:51 PM   #430
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I've got a shotgun and a pistol. Ergo, I do not need some bloated military to protect me or my home. I can do that myself. I was in the Army Infantry. I know what to do. Ergo, I refuse to pay any portion of taxes that go to support a military. I no longer have children in school, so I refuse to pay for education too. I'm opting out.

I'm always entertained by how vehemently you argue against something you clearly have put no time into understanding. None of your arguments even scratch, let alone connect.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:54 PM   #431
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I'm always entertained by how vehemently you argue against something you clearly have put no time into understanding. None of your arguments even scratch, let alone connect.
I wouldn't say "vehemently." It's more of a casual exercise in logic. If a taxpayer can opt out of one thing, who is to decide he can't opt out of something else? Like Spock said, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Or the one."
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:56 PM   #432
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I wouldn't say "vehemently." It's more of a casual exercise in logic. If a taxpayer can opt out of one thing, who is to decide he can't opt out of something else? Like Spock said, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Or the one."

Yes, of course. We should model our society around a movie where they can beam people wherever they want, and have medical devices that can rearrange cells for healing.

In the real world, we have to worry about pesky things like economics.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:59 PM   #433
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Yes, of course. We should model our society around a movie where they can beam people wherever they want, and have medical devices that can rearrange cells for healing.

In the real world, we have to worry about pesky things like economics.
Address the point, King Presto.

Do you disagree that living in a society where one can opt out of any tax he/she wants opens up a whole new can of worms?

If so, provide details, don't just deflect. Otherwise you're just Beavis with mod privileges.
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Old 10-04-2013, 01:12 PM   #434
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Yes, of course. We should model our society around a movie where they can beam people wherever they want, and have medical devices that can rearrange cells for healing.

In the real world, we have to worry about pesky things like economics.
But whose economics? That is the question. I prefer the economics that benefit the most. As far as movies go, they're just a reflection of us. Better Spock than the gold backed fantasies of Rothbard and Mises. Many of our greatest themes are captured in our art. Of course, they tried to film Atlas Shrugged. That didn't go so well. Not much art to work with, I suppose.
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Old 10-04-2013, 01:23 PM   #435
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If so, provide details, don't just deflect. Otherwise you're just Beavis with mod privileges.
Now that right there is a classic!
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Old 10-04-2013, 01:40 PM   #436
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Address the point, King Presto.

Do you disagree that living in a society where one can opt out of any tax he/she wants opens up a whole new can of worms?

If so, provide details, don't just deflect. Otherwise you're just Beavis with mod privileges.
Please. I provide 20x the detail of old good ol' Sparty One Liner.
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Old 10-04-2013, 01:42 PM   #437
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Address the point, King Presto.

Do you disagree that living in a society where one can opt out of any tax he/she wants opens up a whole new can of worms?

If so, provide details, don't just deflect. Otherwise you're just Beavis with mod privileges.
I think there are a lot of taxes we should be able to opt out of, or get credits on, yes.

Last edited by Taco John; 10-04-2013 at 02:02 PM..
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Old 10-04-2013, 01:47 PM   #438
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Actually i do remember TJ once replying about parks. He didn't want his tax money going towards them. Then another libertarian pipped up and reaffirmed that we didn't need libraries because we have the interwebz now. ...And museums should be all privatized.

Not sure why TJ is acting like "what? Huh?" "who me"? What you talk'n 'bout Willis?
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Old 10-04-2013, 02:02 PM   #439
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Actually i do remember TJ once replying about parks. He didn't want his tax money going towards them. Then another libertarian pipped up and reaffirmed that we didn't need libraries because we have the interwebz now. ...And museums should be all privatized.

Not sure why TJ is acting like "what? Huh?" "who me"? What you talk'n 'bout Willis?

I believe you're mistaken. Parks are a local function. I have no problem with communities voting that they want to have parks. I'm very much in favor of local government. I just want it as local as possible.
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Old 10-04-2013, 02:14 PM   #440
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The thing is, if we were talking about single payer, I could respect the arguments. At least they'd be principled. But we're not. We're talking about the permanent entrenchment of the insurance industry as an extension of our government. A hand over of the American people to the corporate insurance titans on THEIR terms. They wrote the bill.

And why? Because nobody was willing to fight for single payer. Imagine if Obama had fought for single payer the same way Ted Cruz did.

The ACA is not better than nothing. It's an economy killer, and worse, it's an enormous power transfer that should scare progressives.
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Old 10-04-2013, 02:56 PM   #441
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The ACA will help many people who need it. It will save countless lives. It will also have many unforeseen pitfalls to work around. It will also be a financial hardship for others.

There's obviously better ways to affordable healthcare, but we're apparently not ready for some form of a single payer system yet in this country. The powers that be are still able to block this.

I'd like to think the ACA is but a pontoon bridge for something better to be built in the future. But we had to cross this divide somehow... some way...and this was it. My hopes are that it's good enough now to help people, but unworkable enough for the long haul so that it finally pushes us to something better in the near future.
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Old 10-04-2013, 03:10 PM   #442
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The ACA will help many people who need it. It will save countless lives. It will also have many unforeseen pitfalls to work around. It will also be a financial hardship for others.
It will help the uninsured by (theoretically) forcing them to buy insurance. Yaaaay?

It won't work. Over the first year of this program, Health insurance companies are going to panic when the promised enrollment numbers never materialize. And they'll respond with public hand-wringing and/or massive rate hikes. Probably both. And it will be laid pretty plain before November 2014.

Because the real problem is Healthcare is systemically unaffordable. Forcing the healthy to subsidize that fact is a losing proposition.

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There's obviously better ways to affordable healthcare, but we're apparently not ready for some form of a single payer system yet in this country. The powers that be are still able to block this.
Single payer doesn't make health care "affordable" It just hides true costs, and rations them at sick people's expense.
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Old 10-04-2013, 04:08 PM   #443
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The thing is, if we were talking about single payer, I could respect the arguments. At least they'd be principled. But we're not. We're talking about the permanent entrenchment of the insurance industry as an extension of our government. A hand over of the American people to the corporate insurance titans on THEIR terms. They wrote the bill.

And why? Because nobody was willing to fight for single payer. Imagine if Obama had fought for single payer the same way Ted Cruz did.

The ACA is not better than nothing. It's an economy killer, and worse, it's an enormous power transfer that should scare progressives.
I don't know about the "economy killer" part of this. I guess we'll see. The rest, I've agreed with from the beginning. What we've got to do is stop the gouging all the way up and down the health care services line. ACA won't do anything about that. We need single payer and price controls.
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Old 10-04-2013, 04:20 PM   #444
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I don't know about the "economy killer" part of this. I guess we'll see. The rest, I've agreed with from the beginning. What we've got to do is stop the gouging all the way up and down the health care services line. ACA won't do anything about that. We need single payer and price controls.
TJ is confused. The economy killer is the shutdown.
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Old 10-04-2013, 04:49 PM   #445
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TJ is confused. The economy killer is the shutdown.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...s-of-the-game/

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The Park Service appears to be closing streets on mere whim and caprice. The rangers even closed the parking lot at Mount Vernon, where the plantation home of George Washington is a favorite tourist destination. That was after they barred the new World War II Memorial on the Mall to veterans of World War II. But the government does not own Mount Vernon; it is privately owned by the Mount Vernon Ladies' Association. The ladies bought it years ago to preserve it as a national memorial. The feds closed access to the parking lots this week, even though the lots are jointly owned with the Mount Vernon ladies. The rangers are from the government, and they’re only here to help.

“It’s a cheap way to deal with the situation,” an angry Park Service ranger in Washington says of the harassment. “We’ve been told to make life as difficult for people as we can. It’s disgusting.”

"Fund us completely, or we know where you live.
Love, your Government"

Tyranny.
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Old 10-04-2013, 05:15 PM   #446
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Just for the record, I'm NOT for obama Care. For me it's absolutely horrible. It's not insurance but rather a fee. For others it may be something else.

Everything I've read about it tells me it's not going to work as it stands right now. It's a sweetheart deal for the medical industry that forces no price controls in the system. The Deductibles are INSANE!

For the average person, it's not insurance but rather a fee with crap insurance but good catastrophic protection.

Like i've said before, I'm just hoping this will catapult us into something else.
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Old 10-04-2013, 05:19 PM   #447
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Both parties are going to bend me over this year.

The Dems with Obama Care. The Repubs by tanking the economy with a stupid no-win strategy.

I wonder if Baja has anymore room on that little survival compound he was building in Mexico?
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Old 10-04-2013, 05:25 PM   #448
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Both parties are going to bend me over this year.

The Dems with Obama Care. The Repubs by tanking the economy with a stupid no-win strategy.

I wonder if Baja has anymore room on that little survival compound he was building in Mexico?
Haven't seen Baja around here for quite a while. Hope they didn't decapitate him down there.
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Old 10-04-2013, 06:34 PM   #449
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It is an excellent system and heavily regulated by government.

]
You obviously don't know how to read.

Singapore's healthcare system consists of a PRIVATE practice component (free market), where they carefully disallow government spending (which keeps prices low).

The other component of Singapore's healthcare system is PUBLIC hospital/end of life where there are heavy government regulations to keep taxpayer liability at a minimum.

That's exactly what I propose for the U.S. A separation of the two systems, where the quality would remain the best in the world, but the cost would drop down to less than 5% of GDP.

Do you get that? Two components, PUBLIC (government regulated) and PRIVATE (free market).
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Old 10-04-2013, 06:40 PM   #450
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We're all going to be on these exchanges in three years, whether we want to be on them or not. Personally, I'd rather have a healthcare savings account that I can use to build an egg for a high deductable insurance plan. Unfortunately, Obamacare puts caps on deductibles so that the insurance companies can milk as much money from me as possible.

Without a doubt, I will be among the millions of losers in Obamacare. My company is going to hang in there, but within 3 years our HR department gal tells me that she sees us being dumped onto the exchanges based on the rising costs of plans, and the economic reality of it for the company.
Exactly. HSA's with availability of ultra-low cost catastrophic plans in a fee for service system. Where all taxpayer costs are highly regulated.

The only sustainable and humane way to provide a 'safety net' without eroding care due to spiraling costs.
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