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Old 09-15-2013, 11:33 PM   #51
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I know exactly what you mean. I'm not talking about when the d-line blows up a play in the backfield and stones him, I'm talking about when he gets a little bit of daylight and the first guy that has an angle on him takes him down like nothing. I'm not seeing the toughness between the tackles. Occasionally falling forward does not equal tough running. I think you're confusing the two. Moreno ran hard today. Ball got tackled easily both in space and between the tackles.
That seems like 3/4 of his rush attempts. Can you point out some examples you are speaking of?
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Old 09-15-2013, 11:39 PM   #52
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That seems like 3/4 of his rush attempts. Can you point out some examples you are speaking of?
This is why I have mixed feelings about coming down on the guy. There are plays I see with the guy that make me wonder about his instincts and vision, but so many of his carries he's just got nothing to work with. I really don't know what to think. Moreno blew him away to day, but most of Moreno's yards came on two outside runs behind Franklin and it feels like 99% of Ball's carries are coming behind our garbage interior run blocking.
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Old 09-15-2013, 11:52 PM   #53
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I agree that interior-line blocking problems haven't helped him and quite a few times, he never had a chance. However, there were opportunities there. Even if you take away Moreno's two long runs, he still went off tackle for 7 or 8, and a couple of plays went off tackle for 10 or 11 on the Welker TD drive to go up 17-9. Moreno also had a couple big runs off of interior line blocks at the beginning of the 4th quarter. The pattern I saw was Moreno grinding out 2 or 3 and occasionally finding some daylight and then Ball coming in to spell him and getting a yard at best. Sometimes it was poor blocking, sometimes it was just not getting off the snap quickly and as Agamemnon said, not showing any real vision.
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Old 09-16-2013, 12:02 AM   #54
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I agree that interior-line blocking problems haven't helped him and quite a few times, he never had a chance. However, there were opportunities there. Even if you take away Moreno's two long runs, he still went off tackle for 7 or 8, and a couple of plays went off tackle for 10 or 11 on the Welker TD drive to go up 17-9. Moreno also had a couple big runs off of interior line blocks at the beginning of the 4th quarter. The pattern I saw was Moreno grinding out 2 or 3 and occasionally finding some daylight and then Ball coming in to spell him and getting a yard at best. Sometimes it was poor blocking, sometimes it was just not getting off the snap quickly and as Agamemnon said, not showing any real vision.
I think we are mostly in agreement. It is hard to separate the bad blocking and Ball's own struggles, but I think at this point he is clearly having struggles. Moreno's instincts are just so much better than Ball right now. All I can hope is that something clicks for him at some point going forward. I just have misgivings as running back is the one position where you are usually the guy you look like as a rookie for your entire career. Backs who aren't very good as rookies only occasionally turn into something special later on.
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Old 09-16-2013, 12:24 AM   #55
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Good game KM! He started off dancing in the 1st qtr, but picked up momentum taking it outside to the right. There was some good blocking on the right and he took full advantage of that. He also held onto the ball. blocked well and moved the chains. That's all you can ask. Nice job Moreno.
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Old 09-16-2013, 12:53 AM   #56
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Everyone making fun of Giants for Knowshon being able to get around the edge. Lol.

Good blocking on the outside.
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Old 09-16-2013, 05:06 AM   #57
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Knowshon had a great game. Green had a couple good blocks that really sprung him loose.

The line is so much better at pass blocking than run blocking. I have a hard time faulting Ball when half the time he is met behind the line of scrimmage by several linemen. Plus he has 8 real NFL quarters under his belt. He is still very much a rookie. Not sure why many expect rookies to come in and set the world on fire right away.
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Old 09-16-2013, 06:05 AM   #58
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Knowshon has turned into a very solid football player, and developed a bit of a nasty streak. What's most impressive is his field awareness in blocking and general play (ie. that fumble recovery).
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Old 09-16-2013, 06:26 AM   #59
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Knowshon has turned into a very solid football player, and developed a bit of a nasty streak. What's most impressive is his field awareness in blocking and general play (ie. that fumble recovery).
I agree.
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:05 AM   #60
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He's clearly won the starting job, which shouldn't have been much of a surprise from what we saw in preseason.

Unfortunately, it's just a matter of time before he gets hurt again, so the others better be taking notes.
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:08 AM   #61
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Until Ball fumbles again I'm going to assume that was an anomaly. Dude had crazy good ball security in college.
And Tebow was probably the best football player EVER......in COLLEGE.

Just sayin'.......
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:16 AM   #62
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absolutely. he did not look good.
I'm concerned that almost every time Ball is given the ball, the play call is supposed to go off left tackle, or a sweep left. and there was NOWHERE for him to go. He did well to get back to the LOS in most cases. This is also what he was given in PreSeason. Note to coaches: Ball cannot create running lanes ...that is O lines job. Stop calling sweep left calls if the O line doesn't block them at all.

I agree that he needs to secure the ball near the goal line, but that was somewhat a fluke. But he also was gaining positive yards ....and he was running up the middle when that happened.

Knowshown had a great game.... and he had some great blocking. I hope BOTH can keep up.
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:19 AM   #63
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Moreno's performance, along with Hillman's lack of playing time, makes one wonder if CJ Anderson could perhaps relegate Hillman to the inactive list in the near future...
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:32 AM   #64
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I'm concerned that almost every time Ball is given the ball, the play call is supposed to go off left tackle, or a sweep left. and there was NOWHERE for him to go. He did well to get back to the LOS in most cases. This is also what he was given in PreSeason. Note to coaches: Ball cannot create running lanes ...that is O lines job. Stop calling sweep left calls if the O line doesn't block them at all.

I agree that he needs to secure the ball near the goal line, but that was somewhat a fluke. But he also was gaining positive yards ....and he was running up the middle when that happened.

Knowshown had a great game.... and he had some great blocking. I hope BOTH can keep up.
Wait, wait, wait. The line blocked great for Knowshon and the same line (sometimes on the same series), blocked like crap for Ball? I think it's more along the lines that the interior run blocking was pretty mediocre (at best) for both backs, but KM got off the snap quicky, ran with vision and finished with authority while grinding out 2 and 3 yards and occasionally 8, or 9 yard runs. Ball on the other hand just sort of got dropped every time he touched the ball regardless of blocking.
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:41 AM   #65
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It will be interest to see whether or not the team picks up the option for his sixth year. Either way, I think he is someone who should be a value re-signing because of what he brings to the table. He is sound in pass protection, catches well and seems to do the little things (that matter) right. Really a jack of all trades guy. You would think several years after the fact that people would let go to their idea of him being an Adrian Peterson-like back because of his draft status and just be pleased with the fact that he is a solid contributor. When he plays, he almost always is. He has improved on ball security and many other areas. I am glad he is here because Ball and Hillman have done squat.
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:44 AM   #66
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Moreno's matured quite a lot the last few years, but a big part of his success late last season and in the first two games of this season can largely be attributed to the offensive scheme. Not only is he finally well educated on the intricacies of the offense for really the first time in his career (young immature rookie in McDaniels' convoluted system, hurt/bench during the Tebow Era), but it also is the system that best plays to his skills.

He's a single back set RB. He's strong in pass pro and his hands and fluidity as a receiver are exceptional for the RB position. In addition to his fit in the passing game though he just looks like a more comfortable runner without a fullback and instead with a TE to stretch his blocking laterally. He's always been a bit of a dancer but without a FB he appears much more decisive in hitting the first quality gap he sees and moving down field. Also, while his top end speed isn't all world his lateral quickness and acceleration are, allowing him to get to the outside behind quality pull blocks very quickly.

He's basically everything this offense needs in a between the 20's RB.

Compare that to Hillman who isn't good in pass pro, isn't a natural pass catcher, and is still tentative when forced to move laterally. Hillman is at his best when he's got daylight dead ahead and can turn the jets on. He could very well develop the more decisive lateral moves needed to find his own lanes but right now he relies on exceptional blocking to give him space to step on the gas.

Montee Ball is something else entirely. I think he's largely just facing a ton of growing pains due to system change and the NFL strength/speed jump. He's not exceptionally big or exceptionally fast. He's a well rounded back with a balanced tool set and he needs to use all those tools to be successful. Right now he's clearly a bit shell shocked. Further, I think he looks really uncomfortable in a single back set. Wisconsin made heavy use of their fullback, hence why Bradie Ewing was a 5th round pick. Ball is used to more old school running schemes and now all of a sudden he's in an empty backfield with Manning calling out audibles like a deep south auctioneer when they just pulled a two cylinder era John Deere up on the block. I'm sure it's overwhelming and his head is swimming.

But then this is why the FO retained Moreno in the first place. He's looking like a known quantity in this offense when healthy - a 10-15 carries at 4.0-4.5 YPC runner with 5-8 receptions for ~10 yards each in the passing game, all total giving you a back who with 15-25 catches can give you 100+ yards of offense. That's more than enough out of the backfield to let Manning run the intermediate to down field passing game as he sees fit without undue "cheating" by the defense.
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:44 AM   #67
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The excuses about Montee Ball now are extremely similar to those during Moreno's rookie season. I can't count how many times Knowshon ran between 0-3 yards his rookie/sophomore years and people claiming "He's doing what he can with that run blocking! He's doing a great job just getting back to the line!!!11" - we come to find out after several years and a stint of Willis McGahee showing how it's done that Moreno just wasn't very good.

The bad news for Ball is that Moreno just McGahee'd Montee Ball by showing how to get good YPC behind a mediocre run blocking line.

The good news for Ball is that, judging by Moreno's career path, he shouldn't be counted out by any means.

Back to the thread topic - props to Knowshon. He is a solid contributor to a Super Bowl bound team. Regardless of your opinion of him, he is helping this team win.
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Old 09-16-2013, 11:05 AM   #68
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I actually like how they are using Moreno right now. They're not going crazy with how many attempts he has running the ball. He protects pretty well and he's always been very solid at catching the ball. I think the FO wanted Hillman on the field for a more explosive home run threat but it's just not working out that way. Ball will continue to get his touches, if for any other reason we need to see what we have in him. I also think, before season end, CJ is going to be in this mix people. It would not surprise me at all if by season end Moreno and CJ are on the field more then Ball and Hillman.
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Old 09-16-2013, 11:08 AM   #69
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That was a really solid game by Moreno, two really strong TD runs on the outside, some good blocking and a key fumble recovery. I am not too hung up on who stands behind Manning in the pistol as long as that guy produces and Moreno definitely did. I am happy for him and this really reinforces the faith I have in this front office and coaching staff, they kept him around despite drafting RBs high, it is an open competition and they go with the guy that works.

I bet at some point before Santa comes down the chimney this year we will talk about Ball or Hillman having had a great game.
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Old 09-16-2013, 11:32 AM   #70
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Moreno's performance, along with Hillman's lack of playing time, makes one wonder if CJ Anderson could perhaps relegate Hillman to the inactive list in the near future...
With the injury to Eddie Lacy... Moreno might be one of my starters in FF along with Arian Foster.
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Old 09-16-2013, 11:32 PM   #71
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Mcdaniels drafted him guys... Lets not forget that.






BUST.
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Old 09-17-2013, 01:20 AM   #72
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I would give the game ball to Moreno. Other than Peyton, he was the most consistent offensive player yesterday.
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Old 09-17-2013, 06:24 AM   #73
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I am all for giving Knowshon his well deserved props for playing lights out for us this game. But, I've seen this movie before. He's going to put together a couple of solid games, maybe even throw an outstanding performance in there, and right as I am beginning to think that he could be a feature back, he will go down with an injury and be done for the season.
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Old 09-17-2013, 06:46 AM   #74
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I am all for giving Knowshon his well deserved props for playing lights out for us this game. But, I've seen this movie before. He's going to put together a couple of solid games, maybe even throw an outstanding performance in there, and right as I am beginning to think that he could be a feature back, he will go down with an injury and be done for the season.
Aside from last year, when have you seen that movie before?
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Old 09-17-2013, 08:04 AM   #75
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I like his hustle. You can see that he loves the game.

He has the fire.

Staying healthy is not easy in this league.
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