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Old 08-26-2013, 08:03 AM   #101
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It was a complete screw up on his part regardless. It is a very fundamental blocking procedure that you always take the inside guy in a situation like that. If the outside guy blocks it so be it but the inside guy will for sure if you block the outside guy. Very basic football knowledge there.
It is not easy to go lateral in that instant since his guy was the outside guy, the blocker in front of him should have blocked the inside guy. So he has to see the blocker in front of him **** the bed and not engage his guy, then he has to take a step left and engage the rusher. This was on whoever was the blocker in front who effed up his assignment.
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Old 08-26-2013, 08:09 AM   #102
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PFF analysis. Lots of love for Vasquez, and also positive notes for Vickerson, Knighton, and KnoMo, and a comment on the importance of Clady.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...season-week-3/
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Old 08-26-2013, 08:20 AM   #103
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PFF analysis. Lots of love for Vasquez, and also positive notes for Vickerson, Knighton, and KnoMo, and a comment on the importance of Clady.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...season-week-3/
The DT position has really improved. Vickerson and Knighton are good base tackles who eat up a lot of space and blockers. Williams, Wolfe, Jackson and Unrein are all solid rotation guys who provide some penetration but can also just stand up the run.

The offensive line with Clady is heads and shoulders better than the offensive line with Clark - although some of that may also be that the Seahawks defensive front is better than the Rams.
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Old 08-26-2013, 10:13 AM   #104
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I just finally watched the game and I thought there were a ton of positives after watching it. First off, I know Hillman had the fumble but other then that he looked pretty solid. Ball I thought had some really nice runs in there. Much better blocking tonight all around, from OL to the backs. Of course PM was on, except a few risky tosses and then the 1 pick. And we didn't even have Welker playing. It was good to see DRC out there. He's gonna be a nice player for us I believe. Hopefully Champ gets out there game 1 and things will tighten up even more. Also I think Ayers missed the past few games so I think having him in there will really help shore up that run stop. No doubt we're going to miss Von though.
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Old 08-26-2013, 10:14 AM   #105
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The DT position has really improved. Vickerson and Knighton are good base tackles who eat up a lot of space and blockers. Williams, Wolfe, Jackson and Unrein are all solid rotation guys who provide some penetration but can also just stand up the run.

The offensive line with Clady is heads and shoulders better than the offensive line with Clark - although some of that may also be that the Seahawks defensive front is better than the Rams.
Nah, the Rams defensive front is just as good as Seattle. Remember, the Rams led the league last year in sacks. They even had more then us.
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Old 08-26-2013, 10:17 AM   #106
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I know the Hillman fumbles are a real concern, but I thought the kid ran really well on Saturday night. 6 carries for 34 yards... his one fumble coming off a strip after a catch. He's got to beef up his ball protection and I hope to hell he is walking around Dove Valley this week with a bag of flower or a green ball, or whatever coaches like to do to teach guys not to fumble.

So other than the fumble, am I the only one who thought he had good vision, hit the hole hard and shook off some tackles? Everything I've heard and read today seems to imply he went down on every initial contact, but thats not implied by either his stats or what I actually witnessed Saturday night. All three RBs had moments that gave encouragement. Of course the O-line was a hell of a lot better on Saturday too.
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Old 08-26-2013, 10:29 AM   #107
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I just finally watched the game and I thought there were a ton of positives after watching it. First off, I know Hillman had the fumble but other then that he looked pretty solid. Ball I thought had some really nice runs in there. Much better blocking tonight all around, from OL to the backs. Of course PM was on, except a few risky tosses and then the 1 pick. And we didn't even have Welker playing. It was good to see DRC out there. He's gonna be a nice player for us I believe. Hopefully Champ gets out there game 1 and things will tighten up even more. Also I think Ayers missed the past few games so I think having him in there will really help shore up that run stop. No doubt we're going to miss Von though.
If you believe the people here on the Mane Ball had those nice runs only because it was raining and he was "slippery".
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Old 08-26-2013, 11:06 AM   #108
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If you believe the people here on the Mane Ball had those nice runs only because it was raining and he was "slippery".
I think they were referring to Lance
And they were right
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Old 08-26-2013, 11:31 AM   #109
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Finally got around to watching the game on tape.

Hillman and Ball both had mixed performances. I realize that Moreno wasn't going against starters, but he still looks like the more complete back at this stage of their various careers. That's fairly disappointing so far as Hillman is concerned. (I'll give Ball slightly more rope since he's a rookie). The whistle should have blown before Hillman was stripped, but he has to take better care of the ball. We already know the refs hate us, (probably because Manning makes them work harder) so we are going to see more than our share of bad calls and crap like that.

Special teams coverage was awful, but I'm assuming that the cover squads are filled with backups trying to make the squad. God help us all if I'm wrong.

Ryan Clady deserves his new contract. The difference with him at LT was obvious. As it should be.

Still hard to see what's going on in the interior line, but I didn't see any of the three starters there getting blown up, and they did get a couple of nice seals.

Orange Julius makes the squad, but he'll need to drastically improve on his blocking assignments if he ever wants to start.

That up-tempo passing game is going to be wicked if Manning, DT, Welker and Decker can all stay healthy. Signs of life from Caldwell, too.

The defensive tackles looked pretty good. Even the backups. As a whole, this particular sub-squad may be the best I can remember in a long time here. With Woodyard at MLB we're going to need that.

Put me on the Nate Irving ain't so bad train.

DRC had a nice game. That was encouraging. With a diminished pass rush through the first six games of the season, they are going to have to be on their toes.

At least over the first few games, I think we're in for some old AFL-style shootouts. (which rarely happened in Denver, but old-timers know what I mean).
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Old 08-26-2013, 12:17 PM   #110
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I know the Hillman fumbles are a real concern, but I thought the kid ran really well on Saturday night. 6 carries for 34 yards... his one fumble coming off a strip after a catch. He's got to beef up his ball protection and I hope to hell he is walking around Dove Valley this week with a bag of flower or a green ball, or whatever coaches like to do to teach guys not to fumble.

So other than the fumble, am I the only one who thought he had good vision, hit the hole hard and shook off some tackles? Everything I've heard and read today seems to imply he went down on every initial contact, but thats not implied by either his stats or what I actually witnessed Saturday night. All three RBs had moments that gave encouragement. Of course the O-line was a hell of a lot better on Saturday too.
It really did look like he went down at initial contact every time. I want paying that much attention but what I was not encouraging.
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Old 08-26-2013, 01:33 PM   #111
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Finally got around to watching the game on tape.


Special teams coverage was awful, but I'm assuming that the cover squads are filled with backups trying to make the squad. God help us all if I'm wrong.

With the same coach and many of the same players as last year suggests you may be right about the preseason ST woes being the product of too many scrubs. No reason to worry until they make it a trend in the regular season.
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Old 08-26-2013, 02:00 PM   #112
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It really did look like he went down at initial contact every time. I want paying that much attention but what I was not encouraging.
I was paying attention and recall him typically going down when two defenders attacked him at the same time. Early on in the game I do specifically recall he made a nice cut to make the first defender miss him at the line, and that he got up field for 6+ yards before being taken down by two guys.

Again, he averaged 5.6 yards per carry. Granted 6 carries isn't a great sample size. Any guy who can get 5.6 a carry and goes down on initial contact is ok with me.

I'm not arguing with you, just stating that other than his fumble he didn't look awful out there.
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Old 08-26-2013, 02:18 PM   #113
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Serious question following - I feel like most running backs that are outstanding didn't have to "learn the game" as a rookie or "make rookie mistakes."

Are there examples of running backs (preferably in the past 10 years) of running backs "learning" and suddenly slaying it their sophomore/junior years in the NFL? I understand they have to learn pass blocking and more routes and stuff, but good ol' fashioned downhill running seems like something you either have or don't.
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Old 08-26-2013, 02:28 PM   #114
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Serious question following - I feel like most running backs that are outstanding didn't have to "learn the game" as a rookie or "make rookie mistakes."

Are there examples of running backs (preferably in the past 10 years) of running backs "learning" and suddenly slaying it their sophomore/junior years in the NFL? I understand they have to learn pass blocking and more routes and stuff, but good ol' fashioned downhill running seems like something you either have or don't.
Part of it is being put in the position to succeed, but off the top of my head.

Marshawn Lynch
Steven Jackson
McGahee (injury too)
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Old 08-26-2013, 02:34 PM   #115
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Serious question following - I feel like most running backs that are outstanding didn't have to "learn the game" as a rookie or "make rookie mistakes."

Are there examples of running backs (preferably in the past 10 years) of running backs "learning" and suddenly slaying it their sophomore/junior years in the NFL? I understand they have to learn pass blocking and more routes and stuff, but good ol' fashioned downhill running seems like something you either have or don't.
You'll like this article - goes along the lines of your thinking and does not speak well of the "potential" for Hillman:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...ck-statistics/
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Of all backs selected in the first two rounds since 2008, none with a sub 3.9 rookie-season YPC have exploded into an elite player. In fact, many have struggled. Richardson is in a category with Ingram, Moreno, Spiller, Vereen, Thomas, Brown, Best, and Mendenhall. Fellow 2013 rookies Vick Ballard and Ronnie Hillman also fit the bill.
Hillman averaged 3.9 YPC last year.
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Old 08-26-2013, 02:35 PM   #116
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Part of it is being put in the position to succeed, but off the top of my head.

Marshawn Lynch
Steven Jackson
McGahee (injury too)
My initial thought jumped to Ray Rice - He wasn't the stand out his rookie year that he was in his second year. Reggie Bush seemed to struggle his first year, then was decent his second year and has been ok since.
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Old 08-26-2013, 02:38 PM   #117
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You'll like this article - goes along the lines of your thinking and does not speak well of the "potential" for Hillman:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...ck-statistics/


Hillman averaged 3.9 YPC last year.
I think Hillman gets a mulligan because he is so young he isn't even done growing yet. We will see.
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Old 08-26-2013, 02:52 PM   #118
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Serious question following - I feel like most running backs that are outstanding didn't have to "learn the game" as a rookie or "make rookie mistakes."

Are there examples of running backs (preferably in the past 10 years) of running backs "learning" and suddenly slaying it their sophomore/junior years in the NFL? I understand they have to learn pass blocking and more routes and stuff, but good ol' fashioned downhill running seems like something you either have or don't.
CJ Spiller
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Old 08-26-2013, 08:22 PM   #119
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I think Hillman is fine when he is not fumbling the ball away. It is not like he was going to be anything more than a figure head until Ball got up to NFL speed. Point is whoever starts is just holding the place for MoneyBall.

I was at peace with the pressure by our front 4 though I wished they worked out Von's replacement with the rest of the 1's and let him play later. Considering we are still missing Wolfe Peyton will keep us in games.

Man we are stacked with WR's, I don't think I have ever seen such a deep WR unit, sure PM makes them look better but Decker and DT were getting it done when Tebow could get it close to them. Throw in Welker, plus Caldwell won his job for sure with his play. I hope we can keep King somewhere, not sure why they used a pick at WR with the group we have.

Thomas may have issues in run blocking but so did Shannon Sharpe at 1st. He is the dynamic pass catcher that is a luxury with Wes on the team. The seam will be hard to defend this year. Screw the run game. I hope they keep Tamme and Dreessen and cut Green. Use Clark at TE if you want to pound it in goal line and line up Unrein at FB.

Moving WW to MLB was overdue. Irving made some plays, he is not Terry Pierce, the problem is he is not Al Wilson either. I don't like Bradley outside of tackling. I really like Trevathan, he could be the next WW.

DRC was playing at a high level. We have some great CB depth, hoping Champ can make a comeback and he still has enough speed left but we won't be lost without him (hate to say that but it is true). I just hope we can mount enough pass rush to not hang the secondary out to dry.

Duke Nacho should be starting over Adams, on the depth chart they Adams as the starter. JDR and Fox like to rotate dudes so he will see the field a lot. I hope Moore improves, haven't seen much of a jump in improvement from last year but it is hard to see the secondary on TV.

Our ST's is a big concern, they were the best I remember seeing in coverage last year and this year they went into the toilet. I hate that kFc got duh bears old ST's coach, Dave Toub, he has already done some good things with them.

Intangibles:
Can they protect the ball? Maybe PM settles the team down if the Seahag game was a RS game and gets them back in contention but you hate to see them dominate in stats yet be tied or down 10 points at the half. Would like to see our D taking the ball away more.

Go Broncos!
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Old 08-26-2013, 08:54 PM   #120
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Some Thoughts

1) Man Ram will be OK at C but Lilja so far has looked pretty bad - yes I know we called him out of retirement and he is getting back into game shape but I have not been impressed so far - thankfully ManRam has shown that he can be at least average at the job and hopefully give Lilja enough time to be good again. I really hope Kuper is able to get back into form because if we have to turn to Phillip Blake we are in serious trouble.

2) Chris Clark is a pretty solid pass protector. Absolutely worthless at run blocking but for a backup swing tackle withe PM as your QB pass protection is all that really matters.

3) Not sure why the distaste for Pot Roast by many on this board - he does what was advertised which is eat up blockers and generate no pass rush. I agree he's not really any different from Bannan in that regard. Mitch Unrein continues to impress and hopefully he can make an impact in backup duty. I am worried about Sly. Yes I know rookie DLineman take more time to develop than most others but against 2nd/3rd stringers you usually see a handful of dominant plays coupled with mistakes. Unfortunately Sly isn't making them - he seems slow off the snap and while he has decent handwork to keep blockers off of him and can hold his ground reasonably well he doesn't have the quickness I hoped for. Contrast Sly to MethWolfe for an example of a player that is clearly going to be an impact guy on the team

4) WW did well enough at MLB. I would rather see the 3 best LB's we have on the field than trot out some garbage at MLB to keep WW in his best position. As long at the DT's do their job I think we will be OK in the run defense department.

5) Shaun Phillips is no Dumervil - Elvis generated a lot of pressure and for many teams without a high caliber LT demanded extra protection on the weakside - Phillips seems more comfortable rushing from the strong side and while he is solid we are going to really struggle for a pass rush without blitzing.
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Old 08-27-2013, 08:16 AM   #121
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I am worried about Sly. Yes I know rookie DLineman take more time to develop than most others but against 2nd/3rd stringers you usually see a handful of dominant plays coupled with mistakes. Unfortunately Sly isn't making them - he seems slow off the snap and while he has decent handwork to keep blockers off of him and can hold his ground reasonably well he doesn't have the quickness I hoped for. Contrast Sly to MethWolfe for an example of a player that is clearly going to be an impact guy on the team...
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Despite playing more snaps against the Rams than any other defender he was generally an anonymous presence. On the plus side, he’s not been bad against the run but the Broncos are in some desperate need of pass rush up the middle and he’s yet to pick up any pressure on his 52 pass rushing snaps. At the moment bringing him onto the field is a real downgrade on both Terrance Knighton and Kevin Vickerson.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...reseason-wk-3/
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Old 08-27-2013, 08:55 AM   #122
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You'll like this article - goes along the lines of your thinking and does not speak well of the "potential" for Hillman:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...ck-statistics/


Hillman averaged 3.9 YPC last year.
The article is ambivalent at best in predicting a rookie RBs success and this is CLEARLY what this article states.

Here's the summary paragraph: That turned out to be a fairly lengthy study, but we generated some useful information. We now know that a small sample of rookie data is not much of an indicator of future success. In fact, rookies who don’t see much of a workload tend struggle to progress into a strong players. On the other hand, strong production on a decent to large workload has meant good production over time. If anything, you should come away from this study feeling better about David Wilson and Doug Martin and a bit more wary of spending a pick on Trent Richardson and Lamar Miller.

LeGarrette Blount, Shonn Green and Peyton Hillis all had great YPC in their rookies seasons. So what. Where as Matt Forte, Donald Brown and CJ Spiller all had below average YPC as rookies.

So, what does this say about Hillman? Not a damn thing.
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Old 08-27-2013, 09:08 AM   #123
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Yah, and here is their rating on T. Austin:

8. Tavon Austin, WR, St Louis Rams

Grade: -2.1

Snaps: 46

Analysis: Caught the one target that came his way against the Broncos for 12 yards, but you feel the Rams aren’t ready to fully charge their pocket-sized weapon on offense just yet. Special teams was another matter however, and his two punt returns (One for 81 yards and an equally good one for 23) nicely showcased his phenomenal talent.

They also gave a negative rating to Ogletree.

Point being, this is a subjective rating system and in no way indicative of a rookies upcoming season.
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Old 08-27-2013, 09:39 AM   #124
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I just watched the game last night and noticed a lttle about the run game. I think the Zone stretch play is what I see "evolving" for our offense since it is now a bigger focus. Hillman doesn't really get the cutback concept yet. Ball is hit and miss - but is pretty damn good wen he gets it. Moreno was actually better at it than Hillman.

The zone stretch play (as I used to coach it) is a relatively simple concept, but takes lightning fast decision making in order to execute properly. Once the O-line starts moving towards the sidelines (on railroad tracks), the back gets the ball a few yards deep and starts to accelerate towards the sideline. His rule is very simple - when you see the wrong color jersey present itself (i.e. - penetrate the line), you cut upfield and get as many positive yards as possible north-south. As soon as second level defenders present themself, keep cutting towards the sideline (in the direction of the play), then back upfield. Zone runs usually get one good cut, but can easily slide their way out, up, out, up for as many positive yards as possible while approaching the sidelines. If no "wrong color" jersey presents itself, you turn the outside corner and accelerate.

Some of our backs are cutting when they see the "wrong color," and some aren't. Some aren't seeing the opening around the corner. It takes time. However, when it comes to instincts - Ball and Moreno are playing the zone stretch scheme a little better. Interestingly enough, Hillman's strength seems to come running inside the tackles from more traditional formations.

It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out after the first 3-4 games.
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Old 08-27-2013, 10:03 AM   #125
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I just watched the game last night and noticed a lttle about the run game. I think the Zone stretch play is what I see "evolving" for our offense since it is now a bigger focus. Hillman doesn't really get the cutback concept yet. Ball is hit and miss - but is pretty damn good wen he gets it. Moreno was actually better at it than Hillman.

The zone stretch play (as I used to coach it) is a relatively simple concept, but takes lightning fast decision making in order to execute properly. Once the O-line starts moving towards the sidelines (on railroad tracks), the back gets the ball a few yards deep and starts to accelerate towards the sideline. His rule is very simple - when you see the wrong color jersey present itself (i.e. - penetrate the line), you cut upfield and get as many positive yards as possible north-south. As soon as second level defenders present themself, keep cutting towards the sideline (in the direction of the play), then back upfield. Zone runs usually get one good cut, but can easily slide their way out, up, out, up for as many positive yards as possible while approaching the sidelines. If no "wrong color" jersey presents itself, you turn the outside corner and accelerate.

Some of our backs are cutting when they see the "wrong color," and some aren't. Some aren't seeing the opening around the corner. It takes time. However, when it comes to instincts - Ball and Moreno are playing the zone stretch scheme a little better. Interestingly enough, Hillman's strength seems to come running inside the tackles from more traditional formations.

It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out after the first 3-4 games.
I'm not sure what the rules are for the RB other than find a crease, cut up and gain as many positive yards as possible. For the oline, it's about simply putting a hat on a defender, whomever that defender is (could be a LBer, could be a safety, could be a DE), because you are positioning yourself in a "zone" and you simply block whoever is there. When the ball snaps you see some of the back side blockers immediately cut blocking defensive lineman down because it's not about creating massive holes for the RB, it's about creating creases large enough for the RB to cut up and through. So if the play is going left, the right side offensive lineman guys are cut blocking while the left side offensive lineman guys are getting their helmets arcross the body of the defensive lineman and also getting up to the second level to cut off pursuing LBers and safeties. It takes offensive lineman who are quick off the ball and can get to the second level fast, cutting off pursuing defenders.

From what I remember about the game, Hillman did good on these pitch sweep plays as he had the speed. But he's got to be able to cut up inside and trust his linemen to be in front of any pursuing defender so as to create a "crease" where he can slip through.
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