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Old 08-21-2013, 01:26 PM   #1376
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I am serious. I dont think Woodyard can play MLB in the NFL. Hes got reps there because hes the contingency plan imo. Hes doesnt have good size as is, and then you pair him with Travathan, whos been strictly used as a nickle Lber? If 2 of the 3 Broncos Lbs struggle getting off blocks, the run defense will suffer. Thats what I envision happening in that personal group.
The staple of the Del Rio defense is the bigger Dline, which allow the lb'ers to run clean. When the line is playing up to par, you can get away with smaller, faster linebackers.
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Old 08-21-2013, 01:29 PM   #1377
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I am serious. I dont think Woodyard can play MLB in the NFL. Hes got reps there because hes the contingency plan imo. Hes doesnt have good size as is, and then you pair him with Travathan, whos been strictly used as a nickle Lber? If 2 of the 3 Broncos Lbs struggle getting off blocks, the run defense will suffer. Thats what I envision happening in that personal group.
Our DTs- Knighton, Vickerson, Wolfe will all two gap. The RDE and SOLB control the outside gaps respectively. This allows our WLB and MLB, the ability to flow and fill the gap accordingly.

They shouldn't be facing linemen more often than not.
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Old 08-21-2013, 01:37 PM   #1378
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You may have a point with Woodyard, but Danny T is a natural weakside LB. I wouldnt worry about him. He's a tackling machine.

Also, We have a VERY big D line...that will keep blockers off the smaller Wes.
Youre a lot more confident in Travathan than me. He hasnt proven himself to be a difference maker vs the run in the NFL, but to be fair, that wasnt his role last season. I know he was great in college, but that means little to nothing for me. From what I saw of his game, I think hes just a nickle guy, not a 3 down lber.

The dline and their size will make a difference, I agree. Just dont think the Lbers are the best fits behind them.
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Old 08-21-2013, 01:59 PM   #1379
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The staple of the Del Rio defense is the bigger Dline, which allow the lb'ers to run clean. When the line is playing up to par, you can get away with smaller, faster linebackers.
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Our DTs- Knighton, Vickerson, Wolfe will all two gap. The RDE and SOLB control the outside gaps respectively. This allows our WLB and MLB, the ability to flow and fill the gap accordingly.

They shouldn't be facing linemen more often than not.
Guys like Keith Brookings played olb over Travathan on base downs last season. Hes slow as molasses, but he can stuff gaps and get off blocks.

I just dont see either Travathan at Will or Woodyard at MLB being effective vs the run. Thats neither of there strengths. You can try and hide them all you want, but they need to make the plays vs the run themselves.
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Old 08-21-2013, 02:00 PM   #1380
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Guys like Keith Brookings played olb over Travathan on base downs last season. Hes slow as molasses, but he can stuff gaps and get off blocks.

I just dont see either Travathan at Will or Woodyard at MLB being effective vs the run. Thats neither of there strengths. You can try and hide them all you want, but they need to make the plays vs the run themselves.
Huh? When did brooking play on the outside? He did?
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Old 08-21-2013, 02:04 PM   #1381
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Huh? When did brooking play on the outside? He did?
Yes, Brooking played on the outside sometimes last season.
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Old 08-21-2013, 02:42 PM   #1382
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With the way this has been going I'm assuming Ayers blew out an Achilles?
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Old 08-21-2013, 03:05 PM   #1383
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with the way we played on special teams last week we better base our depth on guys who can cover a ****ing kickoff
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Old 08-21-2013, 03:20 PM   #1384
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Guys like Keith Brookings played olb over Travathan on base downs last season. Hes slow as molasses, but he can stuff gaps and get off blocks.

I just dont see either Travathan at Will or Woodyard at MLB being effective vs the run. Thats neither of there strengths. You can try and hide them all you want, but they need to make the plays vs the run themselves.
Group A (Base)
Ayers, Vickerson, Knighton, Wolfe
Trevethan, Woodyard, Irving

Group B (Nickel)
Phillips, Sly, Wolfe, Jackson
Trevethan Woodyard

Which group would be better verse the run and which against the pass?
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Old 08-21-2013, 03:45 PM   #1385
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Group A (Base)
Ayers, Vickerson, Knighton, Wolfe
Trevethan, Woodyard, Irving

Group B (Nickel)
Phillips, Sly, Wolfe, Jackson
Trevethan Woodyard

Which group would be better verse the run and which against the pass?
Neither are strong vs the run imo. The Nickle is clearly better at coverage and rushing the passer than the base youve set up.

I understand where youre going with this, and believe me, I share much of the same concern. The base defense with Irving at Sam has the potential to be average or poor in pass rushing.

Moving Irving to MLB and Phillips to Sam could be the answer, and Im much more inclined to believe thats the plan as opposed to having both Woodyard and Travathan on the field at the same time on base downs.

I think we can all agree the nickle is pretty much set. Its the base d thats giving us confusion, and Im sure the Broncos staff too. Last season, the Broncos rotated numerous guys in and out on base d, and I expect much of the same this season.

The only thing I feel confident about, and I sure as hell could be wrong, but I dont think the Broncos come out with Travathan and Woodyard on base d.
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Old 08-21-2013, 03:50 PM   #1386
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Left tackle Ryan Clady continues to increase his practice workload and is still on track to start the regular-season opener. Clady, who had offseason shoulder surgery to repair a torn labrum, worked some with the starting offense in Wednesday’s practice. Clady went in for a selection of plays in team drills before giving way to Chris Clark for the remainder of those practice periods. Clark has filled in at left tackle all through the offseason workouts, training camp and in the first two preseason games. “(Clady) was doing as couple reps a period here and there,’’ Gase said. “But just to know that he’s out there ... it’s really good to see him out there.’’

With Elvis Dumervil having left in free agency and Von Miller suspended for the first six games of the season for violating the league’s substance-abuse policy, Shaun Phillips will be the team’s most accomplished pass rusher in uniform against the Ravens. Phillips, who had 9.5 sacks for the 7-9 Chargers last season and has 69.5 career sacks, will have to find the groove quickly if the Broncos are going to generate a consistent pass rush. Phillips will line up at defensive end plenty in rush situation much like Miller does for the team. “We’ve got guys who can get after it a little bit,’’ Phillips said. “Unfortunately we lose our best pass rusher for a couple of games, but it is what it is. You have hiccups in life … we’ll be OK.’’ Malik Jackson, a Broncos fifth-round pick in the 2012 draft, will also have plenty of opportunities in pass rush situations in the season’s early going. Jackson, who plays inside at defensive tackle in some of the specialty packages, took some snaps Wednesday at right defensive end because Robert Ayers was held out with a foot injury.

There was a moment in Wednesday’s practice that showed why Woodyard has risen so far with the Broncos since making the roster as an undrafted rookie in 2008. Woodyard, a special teams captain for most of his career and now a starting linebacker, was playing on field-goal defense, when just before the snap he noticed the kicking team had switched holders from the No. 1 holder -- punter Britton Colquitt – to the backup holder tight end Jacob Tamme. Before the ball was snapped, Woodyard shouted “new holder,’’ which brought some kudos from Fox following the kick.

Cornerback Champ Bailey is still wearing a walking boot on his injured left foot and using crutches to get around. The Broncos remain hopeful he can play at least some to open regular season, but it is still a question mark at this point.
Linebacker Stewart Bradley has had the surgery on his left wrist and the


http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post...bles-troubling
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Old 08-21-2013, 03:52 PM   #1387
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Yes, Brooking played on the outside sometimes last season.
Not saying he didn't but when did Brooking play OLB last year?
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Old 08-21-2013, 04:01 PM   #1388
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Neither are strong vs the run imo. The Nickle is clearly better at coverage and rushing the passer than the base youve set up.

I understand where youre going with this, and believe me, I share much of the same concern. The base defense with Irving at Sam has the potential to be average or poor in pass rushing.

Moving Irving to MLB and Phillips to Sam could be the answer, and Im much more inclined to believe thats the plan as opposed to having both Woodyard and Travathan on the field at the same time on base downs.

I think we can all agree the nickle is pretty much set. Its the base d thats giving us confusion, and Im sure the Broncos staff too. Last season, the Broncos rotated numerous guys in and out on base d, and I expect much of the same this season.

The only thing I feel confident about, and I sure as hell could be wrong, but I dont think the Broncos come out with Travathan and Woodyard on base d.
Gutless just posted a Tweet from TC. Harris said a big reason Woody was moved to Mike, is because our brass wants to get Trevethan on the field.

Since we two gap our DTs up front, I'm not worried about Woody or Trevethan. I'm concerned with getting after the QB. You can't play Sly in base, he's still raw and vulnerable against the run. If Irving plays SAM because he may be slightly more stout against the run than Phillips, we will sacrifice any pass rush.

That combination in Group A is what our base defense will have to be, to not be susceptible to the run, while bringing Trevethan onto the field and playing Woody at Mike. We will need that beef up front. And while those are out best coverage LBs, if the pass rush doesn't get home, someone will find a crease sonewhere.

I actually prefer Woody and Trevethan always on the field, because of their coverage ability. I just prefer Phillips at SAM, because we are in a Nickel type defense. And Phillips can fill a gap on the outside verse the run.

My Base D Preference

Jackson, Vickerson, Knighton, Wolfe
Trevethan, Woody, Phillips

It's going to be about rotations and combinations all season.
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Old 08-21-2013, 04:15 PM   #1389
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Not saying he didn't but when did Brooking play OLB last year?
I haven't watched any of last seasons games in months now and cant exactly remember which particular games he did. But believe me, I saw many games where Brooking played olb for a time, especially near the goaline.

He never took substantial snaps there, but what I was getting at is the Broncos preferred him on base d at olb over Travathan. That leads me to believe the Broncos weren't confident in Travathans run defense. He was a rookie, weighed only 230 (hes gained 10 lbs), and doesnt strike anyone as physical. He may have made serious strides in his game up til now, but imo I just dont see him being a difference maker in the running game and becoming a 3 down lber.
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Old 08-21-2013, 04:46 PM   #1390
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Gutless just posted a Tweet from TC. Harris said a big reason Woody was moved to Mike, is because our brass wants to get Trevethan on the field.

Since we two gap our DTs up front, I'm not worried about Woody or Trevethan. I'm concerned with getting after the QB. You can't play Sly in base, he's still raw and vulnerable against the run. If Irving plays SAM because he may be slightly more stout against the run than Phillips, we will sacrifice any pass rush.

That combination in Group A is what our base defense will have to be, to not be susceptible to the run, while bringing Trevethan onto the field and playing Woody at Mike. We will need that beef up front. And while those are out best coverage LBs, if the pass rush doesn't get home, someone will find a crease sonewhere.

I actually prefer Woody and Trevethan always on the field, because of their coverage ability. I just prefer Phillips at SAM, because we are in a Nickel type defense. And Phillips can fill a gap on the outside verse the run.

My Base D Preference

Jackson, Vickerson, Knighton, Wolfe
Trevethan, Woody, Phillips

It's going to be about rotations and combinations all season.
Completely agree. The Broncos mixed up personnel on base d a lot last year, and I could see them mixing things up even more with Von out. Actaully, I expect it.

What Harris said is nice, but it wasnt until the Broncos suffered injury did they give Travathan a look on base d in TC (if Im wrong let me know, I cant go to camp and see).

I like that base d more, but I think with Phillips at Sam, Irving would play MLb and Woodyard would get kicked outside.

I guess a better way to look at this is projecting which role each guy can fill.

In terms of pass rushers, Phillips is clearly the best edge rusher. Then its a
major drop off. Ayers, Wolfe, Jackson, the long shot Smith....Im not exactly excited about that. Irving might have the skills on the edge, I just havent seen it yet. Thats a serious problem to have, and the Broncos need someone to step up. I dont think Phillips was brought in to start on base d, but his edge skills, he might have too.

True run stuffers imo are Bradley, Irving and now Lenon.

Woodyard is a good all around player on the outside, and Travathan is a pure coverage guy imo.

On base d, having wolfe, ayers, woodyard and Irving as a collection can be effective pass rushing. More blitzing will be necessary, but I dont think Del Rio and Fox will mind. What I like about this d is it will give Phillips and Travathan rest for passing situations, which is essentially the new base defense. But if the Broncos cant get pressure on base d without Phillips, then even if he does play there, the Broncos are going to have problems. Having only 1 edge rusher would suck, especially considering what we had last season.
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:17 PM   #1391
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Our DTs- Knighton, Vickerson, Wolfe will all two gap. The RDE and SOLB control the outside gaps respectively. This allows our WLB and MLB, the ability to flow and fill the gap accordingly.
Completely false.
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:27 PM   #1392
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Completely agree. The Broncos mixed up personnel on base d a lot last year, and I could see them mixing things up even more with Von out. Actaully, I expect it.

What Harris said is nice, but it wasnt until the Broncos suffered injury did they give Travathan a look on base d in TC (if Im wrong let me know, I cant go to camp and see).

I like that base d more, but I think with Phillips at Sam, Irving would play MLb and Woodyard would get kicked outside.

I guess a better way to look at this is projecting which role each guy can fill.

In terms of pass rushers, Phillips is clearly the best edge rusher. Then its a
major drop off. Ayers, Wolfe, Jackson, the long shot Smith....Im not exactly excited about that. Irving might have the skills on the edge, I just havent seen it yet. Thats a serious problem to have, and the Broncos need someone to step up. I dont think Phillips was brought in to start on base d, but his edge skills, he might have too.

True run stuffers imo are Bradley, Irving and now Lenon.

Woodyard is a good all around player on the outside, and Travathan is a pure coverage guy imo.

On base d, having wolfe, ayers, woodyard and Irving as a collection can be effective pass rushing. More blitzing will be necessary, but I dont think Del Rio and Fox will mind. What I like about this d is it will give Phillips and Travathan rest for passing situations, which is essentially the new base defense. But if the Broncos cant get pressure on base d without Phillips, then even if he does play there, the Broncos are going to have problems. Having only 1 edge rusher would suck, especially considering what we had last season.
I think Trevethan is the real deal and will prove to be a very good LB, he won't just be a subpackage player. It could just be coincidental that Harris said that. But this is a second year player, who I think has looked very good thus far and is having a great pre season. I actually wouldn't be opposed to Trevethan playing MLB and think he could excel there.
In college, his strength wasn't coverage, it was actually considered a question mark. He's best attributes were his anticipation and instincts, and ability to play make all over the field. He's developed his coverage skills.

I'm excited for Malik and think he can push Ayers who I'm not excited about, for snaps at RDE. He's just as stout if not more stout against the run, and I think he's more explosive off the edge than Ayers. I also think Wolfe if healthy is primed for a HUGE season. Don't count out a healthy Q!

I don't think Irving has skills playing on the outside to do anything other than stop the run. He will not be pass rushing, sure he may be asked to ocassionally blitz, but I'm not sure he has the aptitude or instincts to delay blitz. Obviously he should play SAM on obvious running downs. But I would prefer a rotation of he and Phillips.

I'm concerned that a good QB would look at our LBs without Irving and audible to pass. With Irving we should play as a more traditional 4-3. But.. That would require more push inside, either Wolfe or Sly, and maybe Jackson playing LDE.

More Traditional 4-3
Ayers, Wolfe, Vickerson, Jackson
Trevathan, Woody, Irving

I actually like that look because all 4 players are competent at stuffing the run and are competent at generating pressure. It would certainly force more blitzing, but a package like that I would prefer if Irving plays SAM.

But in a 4-3 Under package
Jackson/Ayers, Vickerson, Knighton, Wolfe
Trevethan, Woody, Phillips

The LBs are much better protected verse the run than the more traditional 4-3 look above. Plus there's our Von like player in Phillips pass rushing, creating more flexibility.
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:27 PM   #1393
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Denver needs to draft DL, LB and DB early 2014.
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:28 PM   #1394
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Completely false.
It's not. Can we just agree to disagree please. I don't want to get back into this with you.
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:30 PM   #1395
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Contract talks with Woodyard could get real.
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:34 PM   #1396
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Denver needs to draft DL, LB and DB early 2014.
If Woodyard fills in well at MLB, I would advise drafting another well rounded LB. if he's not an answer there, I'd like to see us grab a young and more proven MLB, like say Pat Angerer in Free Agency. He's stuck as the third MLB there, partly due to some bad luck with health.

I would have really liked an aggressive move like that to bring him in either this offseason that past or even prior to the Lenon signing.
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:34 PM   #1397
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It's not. Can we just agree to disagree please. I don't want to get back into this with you.
Wood will be fine at MLB, because Brooking wasn't good at shedding blocks either. Although I doubt Wood will be as adebt at putting players in proper position as Brooking was.

The real question is if Trevathan is ready for 100+ tackle/year production.


In the end, without pass-rush this Defense is scewed.
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:35 PM   #1398
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Why is Irving in del rios doghouse? According to Alfred Williams and others Nate Irving is the real deal!
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:36 PM   #1399
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Denver needs to draft DL, LB and DB early 2014.
Just like every year.
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:38 PM   #1400
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Angerer probably could have been had considering what a bad fit he is in Indy's 3-4. I've liked him going back to his time at Iowa, but he has the same size limitations WWIII has. I think we Denver will be fine with Wood/Von/Trev. Fox has traditionally had smallish, athletic LB corps and I think with the interior DL possibly tying up blockers, we will have bigger worries than the LB corps later this season--barring injury of course.

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