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Old 07-15-2013, 06:42 PM   #726
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Originally Posted by El Minion View Post
How A Black Businessman Was Sentenced To Life In Prison For A Likely Self-Defense Killing

By Nicole Flatow on Sep 24, 2012 at 12:00 pm

When police investigated the death of Brian Epp, they determined that John McNeil was merely acting in self-defense when he shot Epp for allegedly loitering on his property, threatening him and his 19-year-old son with a knife. They didn’t charge him with any crime. But 274 days later, McNeil was prosecuted and sentenced to life in prison, theGrio explains:

The case relates to events on December 6, 2005, when McNeil received a distress call from his teenage son that a man was lurking around in their backyard.

“John called 911 and told the police he was on his way home,” said his wife, who is living with advanced stage cancer. According to testimony, the man, Brian Epp, a hired contractor with whom McNeil had past disagreements, had already pulled out a knife on McNeil’s 19-year-old son.

When McNeil returned home, Epp, who is white, refused to leave, despite being asked several times. McNeil and eye-witnesses testified that he fired a warning shot but when Epp charged towards him with his hand in his pocket he shot out in self-defense.
Witnesses corroborated this account, as well as McNeil’s fear of Epps. A couple who had also hired Epps testified at trial that they carried a gun around him because of his threatening behavior. Nevertheless, McNeil, a black property owner who has now been in jail for almost six years for the death of a white trespasser, lost his appeal before the Supreme Court in 2008.

McNeil’s case is, in many respects, the mirror image of the infamous shooting of Trayvon Martin earlier this year. In Florida, a “Stand Your Ground” law that often enables shooters to literally get away with murder initially protected George Zimmerman from prosecution, although he has since been charged with second-degree murder, and Zimmerman could still escape justice because of Florida’s Stand Your Ground law. McNeil, on the other hand, has now lost six years of his life in spite of what appears to be a much clearer case of self-defense under Georgia’s “Castle Doctrine,” a more limited law that permits the use of deadly force to defend one’s own property.

Civil rights groups are now calling for McNeil’s immediate release, pointing to the Trayvon Martin case to show that laws intended to apply equally to all races discriminate against African Americans whether they are the alleged perpetrator or the victim.

“We are victims at both ends of the gun,” said Marcus Coleman, who leads the Atlanta chapter of the National Action Network.

The mayor of McNeil’s hometown, Wilson, N.C., has also joined in calling for McNeil’s release. In a letter to Georgia Gov. Nathan Deal, he said, “I have read the entire trial transcript and I believe it’s clear that John only acted to protect his family.”

In the Georgia Supreme Court’s opinion, the one dissenting justice, Chief Justice Leah Ward Sears, wrote unequivocally that McNeil should have been protected by Georgia’s “Castle doctrine,” writing: “the evidence was overwhelming in showing that a reasonable person in McNeil’s shoes would have believed that he was subject to an imminent physical attack by an aggressor possessing a knife and that it was necessary to use deadly force to protect himself from serious bodily injury or a forcible felony.”

McNeil, who had no other criminal history, has a second appeal pending. If he loses that, he will have to file a clemency request with the Georgia Board of Pardons and Paroles.

“The John McNeil case is unique in the Southern and American criminal justice system,” said Rev. William Barber, president of the North Carolina NAACP, in an interview with theGrio. “You just can’t find a case where a black man on his property shoots a white armed aggressor and the black man is defended by two senior white detectives, white eyewitnesses, a black female Chief Justice of the state Supreme Court, all who challenge the conclusion of and prosecution by a white DA.”
Sounds like self defense to me. I highly doubt he had the quality of lawyers that GZ had to adequately fight these over aggressive over charging prosecutors. Hopefully they can reopen this cas. Maybe something good CAN come out of the TM tragedy.
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Old 07-15-2013, 06:53 PM   #727
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I didn't watch 10 seconds of this trial because I already knew going in exactly what the outcome would be. I don't know if the verdict was based on race or not, but I do know it was a damn stupid one. This fool was a self described "watch captain", in reality a vigilante nutball who stalked this kid, ignored the cops directive to back off and even made inflamatory statements over the phone on his 911 call before he killed this kid, but in a courtroom you only need one nitwit with reasonable doubt.

Juries are inherently stupid. People mostly serve on juries who were to ignorant or incompetent to figure out how to get out of it. It's time to consider going to a system of professional jurists. You need a license in this country to drive a car, sell insurance, catch a fish or shoot a deer, but any moron who has his name on the voting rolls or has a drivers license can sit in judgement on someone's life.

A law license should be required to be a jury member in any felony trial.
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Old 07-15-2013, 06:56 PM   #728
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Originally Posted by footstepsfrom#27 View Post
I didn't watch 10 seconds of this trial because I already knew going in exactly what the outcome would be. I don't know if the verdict was based on race or not, but I do know it was a damn stupid one. This fool was a self described "watch captain", in reality a vigilante nutball who stalked this kid, ignored the cops directive to back off and even made inflamatory statements over the phone on his 911 call before he killed this kid, but in a courtroom you only need one nitwit with reasonable doubt.

Juries are inherently stupid. People mostly serve on juries who were to ignorant or incompetent to figure out how to get out of it. It's time to consider going to a system of professional jurists. You need a license in this country to drive a car, sell insurance, catch a fish or shoot a deer, but any moron who has his name on the voting rolls or has a drivers license can sit in judgement on someone's life.

A law license should be required to be a jury member in any felony trial.
You're not up on the facts, bro. Read the threads if you like to find out why.
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Old 07-15-2013, 07:27 PM   #729
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[QUOTE=manchambo;3877430]How long do you think it should be used? How long would you think it would ordinarily take to overcome a centuries long process to destroy all opportunity, education, wealth, and self worth of an entire race of people? A couple of months?[/QUOTE

You're right, we should just ignore this and let it be normalized. It's a great excuse to commit genocide against one's own race.

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Old 07-15-2013, 07:50 PM   #730
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"In a post that drew nearly 50 comments on Facebook, real estate agent Christina Dudley said she was walking to her car just before 9 p.m. when she saw several young black males and two black females chasing a 37-year-old Hispanic man west on North Linwood Avenue past East Fairmont Avenue.

"One of the boys had a handgun out and it was pointed at the back of him," Dudley said in an interview.

They caught up to the man at the corner of Fairmount and N. Streeper Street, and the male with the gun beat the victim with what appeared to be his gun while others kicked and stomped him, Dudley said.

"They were just yelling and calling him names as they ran after him, but once they were hitting him and after that they started yelling, "This is for Trayvon, [expletive]," said Dudley, who heard the chant repeated multiple times.


Read more: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/mar...#ixzz2ZAY6YHu5
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Old 07-15-2013, 07:52 PM   #731
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see sensitive as can be- nailed it the first time around.

and you tossed out the cliched media zombie line... I thought it would be sheep, but zombie is impressive too.

My guess your next post will blame all problems on "low information voters"....

Yep, you're an original thinker all right.
The exchange between you two is the very reason why conservatism will never accept libertarianism (or ANY deviation from what they perceive as goodthink). You have repeatedly made your libertarian views well known, yet because you have a difference of opinion with a conservative, he automatically labels you as a liberal.

Best to eschew them entirely. There is no hope for conservatism as long as xenophobia reigns.
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Old 07-15-2013, 07:57 PM   #732
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I didn't watch 10 seconds of this trial because I already knew going in exactly what the outcome would be. I don't know if the verdict was based on race or not, but I do know it was a damn stupid one. This fool was a self described "watch captain", in reality a vigilante nutball who stalked this kid, ignored the cops directive to back off and even made inflamatory statements over the phone on his 911 call before he killed this kid, but in a courtroom you only need one nitwit with reasonable doubt.

Juries are inherently stupid. People mostly serve on juries who were to ignorant or incompetent to figure out how to get out of it. It's time to consider going to a system of professional jurists. You need a license in this country to drive a car, sell insurance, catch a fish or shoot a deer, but any moron who has his name on the voting rolls or has a drivers license can sit in judgement on someone's life.

A law license should be required to be a jury member in any felony trial.
Footsteps! MY MAN! How have you been bro!?!?!?!? Long time no chat! Here is a PEACE offering......
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Old 07-15-2013, 08:21 PM   #733
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In other words, why look at the facts when you can rely instead on bull**** theories?
You spout off about "wealth disparity", while you constantly promote the very policies that are chiefly responsible for wealth disparity and asset inflation (socialism and keynesian spending), and decry capitalism. Never acknowledging that capitalism is the have-nots only real vehicle towards wealth.

You're like a blind mule braying for water while standing knee deep in a river.
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Old 07-15-2013, 08:27 PM   #734
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Juror B37 (the one who just did an interview on CNN gushing about how sympathetic Zimmerman was and how bad she felt for him...oh and also that dead kid a little bit too) already has a book contract. But not, she says, to make a quick, exploitive buck or anything. Nooo, she has great insight for all of us!

Oh, and her book agent is the same one that handled OJ's "If I Did It" book. Great people coming out of America's greatest state, what can you say?
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Old 07-15-2013, 08:31 PM   #735
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Best to eschew them entirely. There is no hope for conservatism as long as xenophobia reigns.
I am a staunch fiscal conservative Caucasian, who votes both Republican and Libertarian (voted for Clinton too, before the Democrat party went off the deep end).

I'm also a muslim (for 17 years) and married to a beautiful african women.


mind blown.
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Old 07-15-2013, 08:31 PM   #736
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Originally Posted by footstepsfrom#27 View Post
Juries are inherently stupid. People mostly serve on juries who were to ignorant or incompetent to figure out how to get out of it. It's time to consider going to a system of professional jurists. You need a license in this country to drive a car, sell insurance, catch a fish or shoot a deer, but any moron who has his name on the voting rolls or has a drivers license can sit in judgement on someone's life.

A law license should be required to be a jury member in any felony trial.
Yes, professional jurists that's what we need and would they be appointed by judges or better yet Obama..........How about professional witnesses too, they seem to be morons also
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Old 07-15-2013, 09:18 PM   #737
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Originally Posted by Kid A View Post
Juror B37 (the one who just did an interview on CNN gushing about how sympathetic Zimmerman was and how bad she felt for him...oh and also that dead kid a little bit too) already has a book contract. But not, she says, to make a quick, exploitive buck or anything. Nooo, she has great insight for all of us!

Oh, and her book agent is the same one that handled OJ's "If I Did It" book. Great people coming out of America's greatest state, what can you say?
**** it I would too.
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Old 07-15-2013, 10:03 PM   #738
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Originally Posted by Kid A View Post
Juror B37 (the one who just did an interview on CNN gushing about how sympathetic Zimmerman was and how bad she felt for him...oh and also that dead kid a little bit too) already has a book contract. But not, she says, to make a quick, exploitive buck or anything. Nooo, she has great insight for all of us!

Oh, and her book agent is the same one that handled OJ's "If I Did It" book. Great people coming out of America's greatest state, what can you say?
That's not how it was presented at all. She said she felt sorry for both of them.

It was a very interesting interview. The first vote was 3 NG, 2 Man 1, and 1 Mur 2. She said they believed Travon threw the first punch and ultimately said when they applied the law the conditions were not met.
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Old 07-15-2013, 10:35 PM   #739
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Juries are inherently stupid. People mostly serve on juries who were to ignorant or incompetent to figure out how to get out of it. It's time to consider going to a system of professional jurists.
A better idea is to offer enough incentive so that people won't try to get out of jury duty. The philosophy behind the 6th amendment is to be judged impartially by your peers. That's an essential part of liberty. Professional jurists would become career bureaucrats, easily corrupted, less impartial than your peers.
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Old 07-15-2013, 10:41 PM   #740
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You spout off about "wealth disparity", while you constantly promote the very policies that are chiefly responsible for wealth disparity and asset inflation (socialism and keynesian spending), and decry capitalism. Never acknowledging that capitalism is the have-nots only real vehicle towards wealth.

You're like a blind mule braying for water while standing knee deep in a river.
blah blah blah And you refuse to watch the video. I'm shocked.

Keynesian policy created the middle class in America. So did progressive taxation. The kind of libertarian capitalism you espouse is simply king of the hill exploitation. The rich use their wealth to pile up more wealth. Monopoly, gouging, labor destruction and debt servants. That's what we have now. You should be pleased.
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Old 07-15-2013, 10:43 PM   #741
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I didn't watch 10 seconds of this trial because I already knew going in exactly what the outcome would be. I don't know if the verdict was based on race or not, but I do know it was a damn stupid one. This fool was a self described "watch captain", in reality a vigilante nutball who stalked this kid, ignored the cops directive to back off and even made inflamatory statements over the phone on his 911 call before he killed this kid, but in a courtroom you only need one nitwit with reasonable doubt.

Juries are inherently stupid. People mostly serve on juries who were to ignorant or incompetent to figure out how to get out of it. It's time to consider going to a system of professional jurists. You need a license in this country to drive a car, sell insurance, catch a fish or shoot a deer, but any moron who has his name on the voting rolls or has a drivers license can sit in judgement on someone's life.

A law license should be required to be a jury member in any felony trial.

Hey I got a better idea. Why not eliminate the whole messy trial process and just flip a coin. It would be cheaper and likely more accurate than a professional jury.

Last edited by baja; 07-15-2013 at 10:49 PM..
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Old 07-15-2013, 11:12 PM   #742
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I just have to laugh at all the idiots out there that refuse to look at the facts with this case and are just shouting out about GZ being the "instigator" so no matter what happened he should be guilty, even though following someone or asking someone what they are doing isn't against the law.

I bet those same idiots wanting to punish GZ simply because he had suspicion and followed the guy have no anger towards this man being sentenced to life.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/oklahoma-ph...2#.UeTTlW1Kbws

Remember the Oklahoma pharmacist that got life for coming back and unloading his gun on the robber? Yeah, I bet these same GZ hating idiots were glad to see that old white guy get life.....even though the instigator of the whole situation was the dead little thug that was robbing the pharmacist at gun point.
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Old 07-16-2013, 06:57 AM   #743
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The exchange between you two is the very reason why conservatism will never accept libertarianism (or ANY deviation from what they perceive as goodthink). You have repeatedly made your libertarian views well known, yet because you have a difference of opinion with a conservative, he automatically labels you as a liberal.

Best to eschew them entirely. There is no hope for conservatism as long as xenophobia reigns.
I found that kind of funny too, H. I was just giving the guy some ****, but of course I am unintelligent, uniformed and a tree hugger.... Well, I do care about our environment though....
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Old 07-16-2013, 09:08 AM   #744
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I just have to laugh at all the idiots out there that refuse to look at the facts with this case and are just shouting out about GZ being the "instigator" so no matter what happened he should be guilty, even though following someone or asking someone what they are doing isn't against the law.

I bet those same idiots wanting to punish GZ simply because he had suspicion and followed the guy have no anger towards this man being sentenced to life.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/oklahoma-ph...2#.UeTTlW1Kbws

Remember the Oklahoma pharmacist that got life for coming back and unloading his gun on the robber? Yeah, I bet these same GZ hating idiots were glad to see that old white guy get life.....even though the instigator of the whole situation was the dead little thug that was robbing the pharmacist at gun point.
Too many people, especially the liberal media, wants labels on everybody. I mean, when they have to stretch to label Zimmerman a "white hispanic" one clearly sees the game being played here and has been for the past 40 years. I mean, imagine this happening 10+ years ago where NBC edits the tape to make it sound like Zimmerman says he followed Martin only because he's black. Without total control of the media like they did in the past, they would have gotten away with that. Also explains why they hate talk radio, Fox, and are for limits in the internet.

Not all black people commit crimes.
Not all nondemocrat white people are racists.
Using "white hispanic" does not make one more white or make it acceptable to attack and lie about.
Race today is used as a political tool than really anything to do with protecting people's rights. The black organizations get all upset with a case like this, while black on black crime is at an all-time high and they have been doing what about any of that? Giving speeches? Bill Cosby sees what is happening and he gets criticized for daring to cross the company, stereotypical line.
The democrats like to believe they have done so much for the black community but when one sees their crime rate, abortion rate, murder rate, food stamps, poverty level, when clearly has to ask: What kind of help is that? Pathetic! But at least the democrats can feel goooooood about themselves that they have accomplished so much in their minds.
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Old 07-16-2013, 09:44 AM   #745
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Too many people, especially the liberal media, wants labels on everybody. I mean, when they have to stretch to label Zimmerman a "white hispanic" one clearly sees the game being played here and has been for the past 40 years. I mean, imagine this happening 10+ years ago where NBC edits the tape to make it sound like Zimmerman says he followed Martin only because he's black. Without total control of the media like they did in the past, they would have gotten away with that. Also explains why they hate talk radio, Fox, and are for limits in the internet.

Not all black people commit crimes.
Not all nondemocrat white people are racists.
Using "white hispanic" does not make one more white or make it acceptable to attack and lie about.
Race today is used as a political tool than really anything to do with protecting people's rights. The black organizations get all upset with a case like this, while black on black crime is at an all-time high and they have been doing what about any of that? Giving speeches? Bill Cosby sees what is happening and he gets criticized for daring to cross the company, stereotypical line.
The democrats like to believe they have done so much for the black community but when one sees their crime rate, abortion rate, murder rate, food stamps, poverty level, when clearly has to ask: What kind of help is that? Pathetic! But at least the democrats can feel goooooood about themselves that they have accomplished so much in their minds.
You of all people should understand the irony of accusing others of 'labeling.'

This post, like most all of your others, is littered with 'labels.'
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Old 07-16-2013, 09:57 AM   #746
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Really? Interesting.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/24/justic...-teen-shooting

(CNN) -- George Zimmerman gave a scathing review of the Sanford Police Department and accused its chief of engaging in a cover-up during a public meeting in January 2011.
Zimmerman's anger stemmed from the case of Sherman Ware, a black homeless man who was beaten by the son of a white police lieutenant.
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Old 07-16-2013, 10:03 AM   #747
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Obama calls for calm, while rightwing idiots like Limbaugh and Nugent throw gas on the fire.Typical.
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Old 07-16-2013, 10:04 AM   #748
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Old 07-16-2013, 10:24 AM   #749
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Jessie Jackson goes on CNN & tries to throw gas on the fire by saying 5 white women are not a fair representation of TM peers.

Am I missing something? I thought GZ was on trial not TM. What happended to the defendant being tried by his or her piers not the victim. And that county is something around 90% White\Hispanic regardless. What do you expect.

I guess the looting, rioting & burning is not up to the race-baiters expectations. Stoke them flames...
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Old 07-16-2013, 10:35 AM   #750
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You of all people should understand the irony of accusing others of 'labeling.'

This post, like most all of your others, is littered with 'labels.'
barryr could save himself a lot of time and simply recycle the same post over and over again. That's all he does anyway.
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