The Orange Mane -  a Denver Broncos Fan Community  

Go Back   The Orange Mane - a Denver Broncos Fan Community > Jibba Jabba > War, Religion and Politics Thread
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Chat Room Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-11-2013, 02:43 AM   #426
peacepipe
Ring of Famer
 
New to the Forum

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,646

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cutthemdown View Post
One problem with manslaughter is you cant do it unless you find it was not self defense. I doubt they can get him on manslaughter either.
They can get him on manslaughter, something to which you yourself stated.
peacepipe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 04:43 AM   #427
GreatBronco16
!!!TEAM!!!
 
GreatBronco16's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Bama Baby
Posts: 6,268

Adopt-a-Bronco:
The Defense
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacchus View Post
It is on the 911 call. Zimmerman said he was going to follow the perp and the operator clearly told him not to do that.




7:12:00 dispatcher tells him not to follow him.
Jesus for the last time, the 911 operator is not a figure of authority. They are not the police department nor do they work for the police department. They have no authority whatsoever in telling people what to do.
GreatBronco16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 05:35 AM   #428
BroncoInferno
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 13,227
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatBronco16 View Post
Jesus for the last time, the 911 operator is not a figure of authority. They are not the police department nor do they work for the police department. They have no authority whatsoever in telling people what to do.
It's true that Zimmerman didn't break a law when he ignored the 911 operator's suggestion. I don't know that anyone has claimed he did. However, it's absolutely relevant in establishing Zimmerman's frame of mind. He was advised not to pursue by a 911 operator who, while perhaps not possessing any legal authority, does receive training from legal authorities on what to advise in such situations. Zimmerman decided to ignore that very sound advice and go play Dirty Harry. It's a highly relevant piece of the puzzle.
BroncoInferno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 05:42 AM   #429
BroncoInferno
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 13,227
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatBronco16 View Post
It is still not up to the defense team to prove he is innocent of murder 2. All they have to do is just give enough reasonable doubt to one jury member and he will not be convicted.
That's true. I'm just pointing out the fact that the burden of proof is a little different than a case where you are accused of murder but deny it altogether. In this case, the defendant has admitted to causing the death. So, he and his team have to demonstrate to the jury that he had sufficient justification to do so. It's a subtle but significant difference. Self-defense claims are difficult to win for that reason.
BroncoInferno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 07:15 AM   #430
Garcia Bronco
Hokie since 1993
 

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 46,590

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Tom Jackson
Default

Judge rules that manslaugther can be consider. State drops aggravated assault charge and is asking Judge to allow 3rd degree murder felony charge. Basically arguing that Zimmerman committed child abuse.

Last edited by Garcia Bronco; 07-11-2013 at 07:19 AM..
Garcia Bronco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 08:14 AM   #431
Johnykbr
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco View Post
Judge rules that manslaugther can be consider. State drops aggravated assault charge and is asking Judge to allow 3rd degree murder felony charge. Basically arguing that Zimmerman committed child abuse.
I will be absolutely shocked if he isn't convicted of manslaughter now. The prosecutors mangled this thing up and declaring murder will be tough but the jurors will not want to walk away without declaring something.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 08:42 AM   #432
Garcia Bronco
Hokie since 1993
 

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 46,590

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Tom Jackson
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnykbr View Post
I will be absolutely shocked if he isn't convicted of manslaughter now. The prosecutors mangled this thing up and declaring murder will be tough but the jurors will not want to walk away without declaring something.
I think he can get convicted of manslaughter.
Garcia Bronco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 08:53 AM   #433
GreatBronco16
!!!TEAM!!!
 
GreatBronco16's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Bama Baby
Posts: 6,268

Adopt-a-Bronco:
The Defense
Default

I've never seen so much arguring over jury instructions before. Heck I didn't even know that both sides could provide their own versions of jury instructions to the judge.

The state is just throwing stuff out there hoping that something will stick. All this does IMO is just give the jury an easy out now.
GreatBronco16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 09:26 AM   #434
Bronco Yoda
.
 
Bronco Yoda's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,497
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco View Post
Judge rules that manslaugther can be consider. State drops aggravated assault charge and is asking Judge to allow 3rd degree murder felony charge. Basically arguing that Zimmerman committed child abuse.

Basically a bait and switch. They caught the defense completely off guard with the child abuse. Unfortunately this happens all the time. Prosecute ridiculous overcharge and then tack somewhere else at the end.

Zimmerman better get ready for some serious jail time.
Bronco Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 09:43 AM   #435
GreatBronco16
!!!TEAM!!!
 
GreatBronco16's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Bama Baby
Posts: 6,268

Adopt-a-Bronco:
The Defense
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronco Yoda View Post
Basically a bait and switch. They caught the defense completely off guard with the child abuse. Unfortunately this happens all the time. Prosecute ridiculous overcharge and then tack somewhere else at the end.

Zimmerman better get ready for some serious jail time.

I don't think he will last long in prison unless they keep him away from the population.
GreatBronco16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 09:44 AM   #436
Arkie
Atlanta GM
 
Arkie's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,951
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronco Yoda View Post
Basically a bait and switch. They caught the defense completely off guard with the child abuse. Unfortunately this happens all the time. Prosecute ridiculous overcharge and then tack somewhere else at the end.

Zimmerman better get ready for some serious jail time.
Now it's a ridiculous overcharge? People were arguing for him to be charged. Some wanted the death penalty. I don't think murderers call 911 right before they murder someone. I don't even think child abusers call 911 before they act.
Arkie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 10:19 AM   #437
Rohirrim
Partisan
 
Rohirrim's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Twixt Hell & Highwater
Posts: 53,015

Adopt-a-Bronco:
CJ Anderson
Default

Sounds like the prosecution is desperate. Child abuse? That's some weak sauce.
Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 10:38 AM   #438
cutthemdown
A verbis ad verbera
 
cutthemdown's Avatar
 
Zimm to HOF

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Long Beach
Posts: 35,626
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peacepipe View Post
They can get him on manslaughter, something to which you yourself stated.
They might but i have doubts. Unless the jury does it as a compromise verdict and doesn't follow the facts. Zimmerman admits intentionally shooting him and manslaughter is usually not intentional killing but more it just happened. If they find he acted in self defense really manslaughter doesn't. I could see this case ending in cluster**** where the jury convicts him of manslaughter then Zimmerman appeals and wins because the judge gave wrong jury instructions.

We will see though it will all be over soon.
cutthemdown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 10:39 AM   #439
cutthemdown
A verbis ad verbera
 
cutthemdown's Avatar
 
Zimm to HOF

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Long Beach
Posts: 35,626
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronco Yoda View Post
Basically a bait and switch. They caught the defense completely off guard with the child abuse. Unfortunately this happens all the time. Prosecute ridiculous overcharge and then tack somewhere else at the end.

Zimmerman better get ready for some serious jail time.
They won't allow it. The judge denied the prosectutions request for felony child abuse lol.
cutthemdown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 10:41 AM   #440
cutthemdown
A verbis ad verbera
 
cutthemdown's Avatar
 
Zimm to HOF

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Long Beach
Posts: 35,626
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnykbr View Post
I will be absolutely shocked if he isn't convicted of manslaughter now. The prosecutors mangled this thing up and declaring murder will be tough but the jurors will not want to walk away without declaring something.
It doesn't make sense though. If it's not self defense its murder2. If it is self defense its not manslaughter or murder 2.
cutthemdown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 01:01 PM   #441
manchambo
Ring of Famer
 
manchambo's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,349
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatBronco16 View Post
I've never seen so much arguring over jury instructions before. Heck I didn't even know that both sides could provide their own versions of jury instructions to the judge.

The state is just throwing stuff out there hoping that something will stick. All this does IMO is just give the jury an easy out now.
You obviously don't know very much about law. Jury instructions are always argued in every case everywhere. There are "pattern" instructions, but which ones are applicable, and how exactly they should be worded in a particular case, is always an issue.

This is a case where jury instructions could be hugely important because of the confusing and subjective nature of self defense, particularly in these circumstances.
manchambo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 01:04 PM   #442
manchambo
Ring of Famer
 
manchambo's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,349
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cutthemdown View Post
It doesn't make sense though. If it's not self defense its murder2. If it is self defense its not manslaughter or murder 2.
I think it may make sense under the doctrine of imperfect self defense. If Zimmerman partially proves the defense but not completely, some states would allow mitigation of the crime to manslaughter, though I don't know the particulars of Florida law.
manchambo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 01:22 PM   #443
Old Dude
Super Moderator
 
Old Dude's Avatar
 
Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: DIA Tunnels
Posts: 14,660
Default

I'll admit straight up that I haven't followed much of this case. From what little I've gleaned, there is conflicting evidence on several points - with the biggest issue being conflict between the testimony of the eyewitness who called 911, versus some physical evidence that tends to contradict him.

Looks to me like a jury could go either way or anywhere in-between.
Old Dude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 01:26 PM   #444
Old Dude
Super Moderator
 
Old Dude's Avatar
 
Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: DIA Tunnels
Posts: 14,660
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by manchambo View Post
... Jury instructions are always argued in every case everywhere. There are "pattern" instructions, but which ones are applicable, and how exactly they should be worded in a particular case, is always an issue.

This is a case where jury instructions could be hugely important because of the confusing and subjective nature of self defense, particularly in these circumstances.
Definitely true.
Old Dude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 01:40 PM   #445
orinjkrush
...
 
orinjkrush's Avatar
 
Hey, no hurling on the shell, dude,

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: FrontRangeAbove8500ft
Posts: 5,102

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Ben Garland
Default

I just hope the external pressures don't affect the outcome. Fear of riots? White guilt? Judicial or attorney careerism?

Focus on the facts. Let the chips fall where they may. Please.
orinjkrush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 02:17 PM   #446
peacepipe
Ring of Famer
 
New to the Forum

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,646

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cutthemdown View Post
They might but i have doubts. Unless the jury does it as a compromise verdict and doesn't follow the facts. Zimmerman admits intentionally shooting him and manslaughter is usually not intentional killing but more it just happened. If they find he acted in self defense really manslaughter doesn't. I could see this case ending in cluster**** where the jury convicts him of manslaughter then Zimmerman appeals and wins because the judge gave wrong jury instructions.

We will see though it will all be over soon.
Jury convictions are hard to overturn.
Quote:
Voluntary manslaughter is the killing of a human being in which the offender had no prior intent to kill and acted during "the heat of passion," under circumstances that would cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed
. I
peacepipe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 03:03 PM   #447
24champ
Livin' the dream!
 
24champ's Avatar
 
Keep Calm and Chive on

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Southern California
Posts: 19,477

Adopt-a-Bronco:
DomCasual
Default

50/50 Zimmerman gets convicted of Manslaughter. Otherwise he gets acquitted.

Prosecution didn't bring their A game to this one.
24champ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 03:24 PM   #448
Arkie
Atlanta GM
 
Arkie's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,951
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cutthemdown View Post
It doesn't make sense though. If it's not self defense its murder2. If it is self defense its not manslaughter or murder 2.
I disagree. You don't call 911 and then murder someone. He's portrayed as a gung-ho trigger-happy cop wannabe. He was playing cop and calling for backup. He could be careless and negligent, and he put himself in an unnecessary situation that resulted in the loss of life. Zimmerman wouldn't have fought for 40 seconds and let it get out of hand if it was murder. He wouldn't have stalked Trayvon or ignored advice if it was self-defense. It seems a likely case of manslaughter to me.
Arkie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2013, 07:14 PM   #449
GreatBronco16
!!!TEAM!!!
 
GreatBronco16's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Bama Baby
Posts: 6,268

Adopt-a-Bronco:
The Defense
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by manchambo View Post
You obviously don't know very much about law.
You got me there. I tend to stay out of courtrooms and never really studied up on jury instruction law. So I only pick up on what I see on TV when a case like this is aired. I just don't ever remember seeing the back and forth like this one.
GreatBronco16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2013, 05:34 AM   #450
BroncoInferno
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 13,227
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkie View Post
I disagree. You don't call 911 and then murder someone. He's portrayed as a gung-ho trigger-happy cop wannabe. He was playing cop and calling for backup. He could be careless and negligent, and he put himself in an unnecessary situation that resulted in the loss of life. Zimmerman wouldn't have fought for 40 seconds and let it get out of hand if it was murder. He wouldn't have stalked Trayvon or ignored advice if it was self-defense. It seems a likely case of manslaughter to me.
Agreed. The spirit of self-defense is something like this: Zimmerman's out taking an evening stroll minding his own business, Martin assaults him, Zimmerman takes him out. But that's not how it happened. It's not the same thing if you go looking for trouble like Zimmerman did. He decided to play Dirty Harry and things got out of control and he ends up killing someone. That may not be murder, but it ain't self-defense either. For those who would defend Zimmerman's right to follow Martin, I would just ask this: what was his end-game? He had no authority to arrest Martin. He'd already called 9-11, so the cops were on the way. If you believe his version, Martin ran off from Zimmerman's neighbor's yards, so he'd stopped the potential crime. So what was he planning to do by following Martin? Throw in Zimmerman's history of assault and short-temperedness, and the only logical inference is that he was planning some sort of physical confrontation. You go looking for trouble, that's not the spirit of self-defense.

Last edited by BroncoInferno; 07-12-2013 at 05:53 AM..
BroncoInferno is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:03 PM.


Denver Broncos