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Old 07-10-2013, 10:43 AM   #401
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I guess I look at it a little differently. When someone's dead, that's it. Existence is over. So, if you are going to commit an act that takes someone's life, you better be able to convince me that you had absolutely no other alternative. I don't believe that's the case here. I don't see any reason to believe that Zimmerman had justification to think he was going to be beaten to death by Martin. It doesn't have to be "beaten to death" it can be great bodily harm, which Martin was on his way to doing In my opinion, had Zimmerman left the gun in the holster he'd have gotten a schoolyard butt-cutting and that would have been the end of it. Furthermore, it seems clear to me Zimmerman instigated the situation by following Martin Following someone does not give that person the right to start hitting people as Martin did, and that Martin may well have gotten physical with Zimmerman in self-defense himself (defense hasn't convinced me of their "double-back" theory). You can't instigate an altercationbut that didn't happen here and the defense has shown that, then - when the tables get turned on you - kill someone and claim self-defense. Sorry. That's murderAt no time during this trial has the Proc demonstrated that this was Murder in the legal sense. Whether or not the jury will agree, I don't know.
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:51 AM   #402
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Since when in this country does following someone "instigate a physical altercation"?

Is there a law on the books somewhere that says you can beat down someone who you perceive following you?

(put your hand down Sean Penn)
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:54 AM   #403
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Since when in this country does following someone "instigate a physical altercation"?

Is there a law on the books somewhere that says you can beat down someone who you perceive following you?

(put your hand down Sean Penn)
Would you feel threatened/scared if someone were following you as you were walking for no apparent reason? Your lying if you say you wouldn't. It may not be illegal, but it is certainly reason for fear.
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Old 07-10-2013, 11:18 AM   #404
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I guess I look at it a little differently. When someone's dead, that's it. Existence is over. So, if you are going to commit an act that takes someone's life, you better be able to convince me that you had absolutely no other alternative. I don't believe that's the case here. I don't see any reason to believe that Zimmerman had justification to think he was going to be beaten to death by Martin. In my opinion, had Zimmerman left the gun in the holster he'd have gotten a schoolyard butt-cutting and that would have been the end of it. Furthermore, it seems clear to me Zimmerman instigated the situation by following Martin, and that Martin may well have gotten physical with Zimmerman in self-defense himself (defense hasn't convinced me of their "double-back" theory). You can't instigate an altercation, then - when the tables get turned on you - kill someone and claim self-defense. Sorry. That's murder. Whether or not the jury will agree, I don't know.
I'd like to think that everybody cares that deeply about human life, but they don't. Hell, about once a month the U.S. launches a strike from a drone that kills people. We simply say, "Well, they were terrorists." Or in the vicinity of terrorists. Or some place they shouldn't have been. Or in some country far away that we know nothing about, and could care about even less. We don't examine it too closely or think about it much. Frankly, we don't want to know who was killed. The press sure as hell isn't going to go get their individual stories and tell us who we killed. They won't even tell us their gender or age. Better to leave it untold. Without their story, there is no meaning.

I think the media have turned Treyvon into something he wasn't: An innocent black teenager walking home with a pocketful of Skittles. They've also turned Zimmerman into something he isn't: A white, racist, vaguely sociopathic thug. It's a media show. It's a Nancy Grace ratings grabber. It's the bull**** side of our society showing its ugly face. They provide the story so we care. White/black. Good/Evil. Moral/Immoral. The dead are exculpated and the living accused.

IMO, it was a stupid event perpetrated by two stupid people who could easily have found a civilized way to deal with it, but didn't. Now they get to be the latest American freak show.
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Old 07-10-2013, 11:27 AM   #405
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Would you feel threatened/scared if someone were following you as you were walking for no apparent reason? Your lying if you say you wouldn't. It may not be illegal, but it is certainly reason for fear.
"no apparent reason"? Now that opens a can of worms now doesn't it.

From who's perspective?

From Zimmerman who saw someone standing in his friends front yard looking suspicious then ran off when noticing some saw him. BTW THEY LATER FOUND A SLIM JIM AND A BAG OF WEED IN THOSE SAME FRONT BUSHES. (but this evidence like so many other things will not be allowed into evidence)

...or from Trayvon's perspective: The frightened kid who didn't just double back once circling his car... but a second time in attack mode.

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Old 07-10-2013, 11:29 AM   #406
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IMO, it was a stupid event perpetrated by two stupid people who could easily have found a civilized way to deal with it, but didn't. Now they get to be the latest American freak show.
agreed
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Old 07-10-2013, 11:59 AM   #407
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"no apparent reason"? Now that opens a can of worms now doesn't it.

From who's perspective?

From Zimmerman who saw someone standing in his friends front yard looking suspicious then ran off when noticing some saw him. BTW THEY LATER FOUND A SLIM JIM AND A BAG OF WEED IN THOSE SAME FRONT BUSHES. (but this evidence like so many other things will not be allowed into evidence)

...or from Trayvon's perspective: The frightened kid who didn't just double back once circling his car... but a second time in attack mode.
As I said, the defense has not convinced me of their double-back theory, and we only have Zimmerman's word that Martin was acting suspicious. If you shoot and kill someone, I'm going to need something more than your word if you want me to believe you acted in self-defense.

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Old 07-10-2013, 12:22 PM   #408
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As I said, the defense has not convinced me of their double-back theory, and we only have Zimmerman's word that Martin was acting suspicious. If you shoot and kill someone, I'm going to need something more than your word if you want to be absolved.
The defense doesn't have to convince you or the jury of anything. The burden of proof is on the state, not the Zimmerman. And so far, they have not proven murder 2.
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:30 PM   #409
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The defense doesn't have to convince you or the jury of anything. The burden of proof is on the state, not the Zimmerman. And so far, they have not proven murder 2.
Actually, that's not exactly right. Zimmerman and his defense admit he shot and killed Martin, which is a crime. He's waived his presumption of innocence on the act itself. It's up to his defense team to show through evidence that this is a rare case where the shooting was justified. They've failed to do so, IMO.
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:30 PM   #410
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And the other ME said exactly the opposite. And again. It's the lack of typical wounds to Martin that don't jive with the eyewitness account of "MMA style punching" that so many are so keen to talk about.
The other medical examiners were complete disasters. Have you even been paying attention to the trial? The idea that you would take their word for it over the level of credibility and expertise presented by the forensic pathologist is laughable. Also, no, you're not a medical expert on damage to knuckles when throwing punches.

A witness, without ever once talking to Zimmerman, completely corroborates Zimmerman's story of Martin being on top and punching, but you're more apt to believe a conspiracy theory? You do realize that this is a trial underneath the American legal system, correct? The state of Florida is not going to jail a man for life on the idea that the knuckles of a bled out person should be bruised. Particularly after an actual expert on the topic said that if there were any bruising, which was not likely to begin with, it'd be under the skin. But wait, the guys who did the autopsy and handled the evidence -- the ones who would have to complete this very task -- have been shown to be completely incompetent! Whoops!

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My understanding is that Zimmerman declined medical attention.
This is true but does not change what should have happened. We all know of stories where a person says they are fine and dies later. Sometimes they even die right then and there.


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That's not at all what I said. You and cutlet should find some reading comprehension classes to attend. You need a lot of work.
You're not going to fool me. The prosecution's case largely had to do with the severity of Zimmerman's injuries. Literally in this very same post you decided to quote the first medical examiner who made those exact same statements. Don't play coy with me.


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Swinging a bat at someone is an act of force (under the legal definition); and deadly force at that. Now, just holding a bat is not an an act of force.

What's so difficult about that distinction?
Uh, Martin was swinging his fists and landing blows. The only way this analogy makes sense is if Martin wasn't swinging punches. If he was, to quote you, "sitting on [Zimmerman] for some reason." Holy canoly. We are going to disregard the corroborating evidence of both an eyewitness and the forensics, and go with, "Some reason." Great! I'm glad your concept of evidence is conjecture and hypothetical. That your requirements for a murder conviction are so low that an unsubstantiated idea trumps tangible evidence.

You people can't see the forest for the trees. The prosecution is extremely lucky that the judge is so friendly to them. Martin having texts where he talks about his own history of fighting will not be available to the jury, but it is available to us. The kid was not all rainbows and sunshine.

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Old 07-10-2013, 12:40 PM   #411
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As I said, the defense has not convinced me of their double-back theory, and we only have Zimmerman's word that Martin was acting suspicious. If you shoot and kill someone, I'm going to need something more than your word if you want me to believe you acted in self-defense.
Which double-back theory do you not believe? The first one where he was on the phone with the police in his car or the second time when he was attacked?

Or do you choose not believe either double-back event.

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Old 07-10-2013, 01:04 PM   #412
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Actually, that's not exactly right. Zimmerman and his defense admit he shot and killed Martin, which is a crime. He's waived his presumption of innocence on the act itself. It's up to his defense team to show through evidence that this is a rare case where the shooting was justified. They've failed to do so, IMO.
It is still not up to the defense team to prove he is innocent of murder 2. All they have to do is just give enough reasonable doubt to one jury member and he will not be convicted.
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Old 07-10-2013, 01:30 PM   #413
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Anyone notice the complete change in direction by the prosecution? They can't avoid thevfsct that Martin was in top. Now they're saying Martin was backing off Zimmerman. This never should have been brought to trial.
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Old 07-10-2013, 05:02 PM   #414
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Would you feel threatened/scared if someone were following you as you were walking for no apparent reason? Your lying if you say you wouldn't. It may not be illegal, but it is certainly reason for fear.
When you lay in wait for them to start a fight that isn't fear though. It's not like Zimmerman ran him down. I've been approached by strangers before and i didn't attack them. I walk my dog really late, it happens. If Martin jumped him do you think that is reasonable behavoir. You think someone following you so you jump them? If they could show me that when they finally met face to face Zimmerman threw a punch then i would be all for murder 2. But the evidence does seem to point to that not being the case. Martin got sick of it and was not afraid to fight. He decided to get the jump on Zimmerman. He struck him in the face, mounted him, then slammed his head into the cement. BOOM your dead.

The proper move in this instance was for

a- Zimmerman to listen to cops and not follow!
b- Martin to not stop and wait for him, just run home dude!

but thats not murder 2 I think it should have been something less. it doesn't rise to the level required to be murder 2. Zimmerman made a bad decision but it wasn't out of malice, hatred, or disregard for human life.

20 yrs to life is the punishment for murder 2, that is too much for this. Manslaughter would also have a self defense out but that would have been more doable for the prosecution because it only requires the killing to be negligent without a clear reason for self defense.
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Old 07-10-2013, 05:03 PM   #415
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Anyone notice the complete change in direction by the prosecution? They can't avoid thevfsct that Martin was in top. Now they're saying Martin was backing off Zimmerman. This never should have been brought to trial.
problem for prosecution is that when the evidence is a tie, defense wins. They have to prove beyond reasonable doubt. All the new theory does is add more confusion to the jury and make it harder to get a conviction.
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Old 07-10-2013, 05:09 PM   #416
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When you lay in wait for them to start a fight that isn't fear though. It's not like Zimmerman ran him down. I've been approached by strangers before and i didn't attack them. I walk my dog really late, it happens. If Martin jumped him do you think that is reasonable behavoir. You think someone following you so you jump them? If they could show me that when they finally met face to face Zimmerman threw a punch then i would be all for murder 2. But the evidence does seem to point to that not being the case. Martin got sick of it and was not afraid to fight. He decided to get the jump on Zimmerman. He struck him in the face, mounted him, then slammed his head into the cement. BOOM your dead.

The proper move in this instance was for

a- Zimmerman to listen to cops and not follow!
b- Martin to not stop and wait for him, just run home dude!

but thats not murder 2 I think it should have been something less. it doesn't rise to the level required to be murder 2. Zimmerman made a bad decision but it wasn't out of malice, hatred, or disregard for human life.

20 yrs to life is the punishment for murder 2, that is too much for this. Manslaughter would also have a self defense out but that would have been more doable for the prosecution because it only requires the killing to be negligent without a clear reason for self defense.
There's going to be a lesser included charge.
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Old 07-10-2013, 05:20 PM   #417
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The police did not tell Zimmerman to not follow the suspect. 911 testified that they do NOT give people orders on what to do for liability issues. So I wish people would stop saying that. It never happened.
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Old 07-10-2013, 05:32 PM   #418
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No surprise here:

The George Zimmerman investigation was hijacked "in a number of ways" by outside forces, said the former police chief of Sanford, Florida.
Bill Lee, who testified Monday in Zimmerman's second-degree murder trial, told CNN's George Howell in an exclusive interview that he felt pressure from city officials to arrest Zimmerman to placate the public rather than as a matter of justice.
"It was (relayed) to me that they just wanted an arrest. They didn't care if it got dismissed later," he said. "You don't do that.
"
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/10/justic...html?hpt=hp_t1
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Old 07-10-2013, 05:40 PM   #419
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We got our "if the glove don't fit...you must acquit " moment.

The prosecutor pulled out a dummy today and straddled it and banged it's head against the concrete arguing over the gun. Yep, the prosecution. Then the Defense got it's turn to slam the dummy around.

that really backfired.
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Old 07-10-2013, 07:26 PM   #420
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In b4 Sanford Florida burns to the ground.
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Old 07-10-2013, 09:58 PM   #421
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Stocking up on popcorn to watch the annoying people burn their own neighborhoods down after Zimmerman is acquitted.
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:06 PM   #422
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There's going to be a lesser included charge.
One problem with manslaughter is you cant do it unless you find it was not self defense. I doubt they can get him on manslaughter either.
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Old 07-10-2013, 11:34 PM   #423
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The police did not tell Zimmerman to not follow the suspect. 911 testified that they do NOT give people orders on what to do for liability issues. So I wish people would stop saying that. It never happened.
It is on the 911 call. Zimmerman said he was going to follow the perp and the operator clearly told him not to do that.




7:12:00 dispatcher tells him not to follow him.
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Old 07-10-2013, 11:35 PM   #424
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Stocking up on popcorn to watch the annoying people burn their own neighborhoods down after Zimmerman is acquitted.
Hopefully, it won't happen that way.
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Old 07-10-2013, 11:37 PM   #425
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It is on the 911 call. Zimmerman said he was going to follow the perp and the operator clearly told him not to do that.




7:12:00 dispatcher tells him not to follow him.
No. He says. "We don't need you to do that." Google up the testimony of the operator.
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