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Old 05-10-2013, 07:57 AM   #26
mhgaffney
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Not sure if this was aimed at me. If it was, I don't see the relevance of when a term for a region was coined. You could adopt the mantle of the ancient Egyptian name for pretty much anything and it would predate (and probably contradict) the modern order of anything.

In the real world, Israel's control has gone (backwards) from Israel to the British Empire, to the Ottoman Turks, to the Egyptians with some Crusaders mixed in between, to the (Eastern Roman) Greeks, to the Romans, and Ancient Israelites, with a mix before that of Babylonian, Persian, with some more Egyptian rule sprinkled about. There has never been a real independent Palestinian state of any kind for any real duration throughout the known history of the world.

This isn't about some kind of firm national identity. It's about Islam vs Judaism. And Islam has no greater claim to (or any better prospects for) the Democratic nation of Isreal.
Wrong.

It's never been about religion. Since the birth of Zionism the struggle for Palestine has always been about real estate.
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Old 05-10-2013, 08:04 AM   #27
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I'll answer your question with a question.

What exactly does Israel do for the United States? Do they provide anything we can't get somewhere else or do ourselves for less trouble? We're not even their largest trading partner...they export more to China and Russia than the US.

They have no oil.

In terms of the economic factors (you know, that thing you Repugs like to talk about all the time), Israel gives us NOTHING. In terms of military? There's nothing the Israelis can do that we can't do for ourselves.
Sometimes it's not about economics. Israel is western style democracy in part of the world that we have failed to gain allies from both the countries leadership and population. Democratic countries tend to be partners and have very similar agendas.

Israel does provide a us, with INTEL and stable partner we don't have anywhere else in ME.
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Old 05-10-2013, 08:09 AM   #28
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Not sure if this was aimed at me. If it was, I don't see the relevance of when a term for a region was coined. You could adopt the mantle of the ancient Egyptian name for pretty much anything and it would predate (and probably contradict) the modern order of anything.

In the real world, Israel's control has gone (backwards) from Israel to the British Empire, to the Ottoman Turks, to the Egyptians with some Crusaders mixed in between, to the (Eastern Roman) Greeks, to the Romans, and Ancient Israelites, with a mix before that of Babylonian, Persian, with some more Egyptian rule sprinkled about. There has never been a real independent Palestinian state of any kind for any real duration throughout the known history of the world.

This isn't about some kind of firm national identity. It's about Islam vs Judaism. And Islam has no greater claim to (or any better prospects for) the Democratic nation of Isreal.
It was aimed at the conversation.

Both the Jews and Arabs belong there by heritage, they have to find a way to live together, there is no other choice.
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Old 05-10-2013, 08:11 AM   #29
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haha

For once, Brit did some actual research. Bravo. Miracles do happen.
Research? You should try it sometime, maybe you wouldn't come across as a condescending, misinformed wackjob.
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Old 05-10-2013, 08:15 AM   #30
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Your cute summation of world history would earn you an "F" at any university here in the states -- or anywhere in the world.
If that's the case (it isn't), then I guess it's true that education can be naked propaganda.

Anyway, genius, if you've got it down pat, please tell me when it was that "The Palestinians" ruled Palestine.

And I hope (for your sake) you don't hope to invoke the Philistines.
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Old 05-10-2013, 08:15 AM   #31
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Sometimes it's not about economics. Israel is western style democracy in part of the world that we have failed to gain allies from both the countries leadership and population. Democratic countries tend to be partners and have very similar agendas.

Israel does provide a us, with INTEL and stable partner we don't have anywhere else in ME.
You are incredibly naive.

Check out how Israel assists in the surveillance of Americans. And btw they sell their spyware to repressive regimes like China, Saudi Arabia etc that use it to prevent democratization.
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Old 05-10-2013, 08:22 AM   #32
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Wrong.

It's never been about religion. Since the birth of Zionism the struggle for Palestine has always been about real estate.
This is, of course, true on some level. But the same could be said of almost all of world history. The question is, why is this the one time... the one example where you want to roll the clock back, only to hand the reins of the most advanced and democratic nation in the region back to a bunch of angry third-worlders?

Do the Zoroastrians get Persia back as well? How about the Moors? Should we reinstate the Caliphate of Cordoba?
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Old 05-10-2013, 08:24 AM   #33
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You are incredibly naive.

Check out how Israel assists in the surveillance of Americans. And btw they sell their spyware to repressive regimes like China, Saudi Arabia etc that use it to prevent democratization.
And you are incredible bitter and simple. You don't understand all the things that are really happening in the world, and the internet don't allow you to.
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Old 05-10-2013, 08:24 AM   #34
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You are incredibly naive.

Check out how Israel assists in the surveillance of Americans. And btw they sell their spyware to repressive regimes like China, Saudi Arabia etc that use it to prevent democratization.
We do that too. I guess it's just dirtier when Ze Joos do it.
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Old 05-10-2013, 08:27 AM   #35
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If that's the case (it isn't), then I guess it's true that education can be naked propaganda.

Anyway, genius, if you've got it down pat, please tell me when it was that "The Palestinians" ruled Palestine.

And I hope (for your sake) you don't hope to invoke the Philistines.
Your point is irrelevant.

Over history, Palestine has almost always been dominated and ruled by others -- because of its strategic location.

This was also true of ancient Israel. Does this fact negate the Jewish connection to the land? No.

Ditto for the Palestinians.

In fact, Britain promised to free the Arabs if they would assist during WW I. You are familiar with Lawrence of Arabia? The Arabs did help defeat the Ottoman Turks that were allied with Germany in WW I --

Afterwards, the Brits reneged on their word - and set up the British Mandate. This included support for a Zionist settler colony in Palestine -- which set the stage for the present conflict.

Another reason why I have no respect for British colonialism. We made a huge mistake -- following in the footsteps of the UK.
MHG
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Old 05-10-2013, 08:36 AM   #36
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This is, of course, true on some level. But the same could be said of almost all of world history. The question is, why is this the one time... the one example where you want to roll the clock back, only to hand the reins of the most advanced and democratic nation in the region back to a bunch of angry third-worlders?

Do the Zoroastrians get Persia back as well? How about the Moors? Should we reinstate the Caliphate of Cordoba?
Funny you mentioned Persia.

It was the ancient Persian ruler Cyrus the Great who freed the Hebrews from captivity in the 5th century BC.

The Hebrews had been carried off in chains by the Babylonian monarch Nebuchadnezzar when he invaded Palestine.

Thus, the modern Jews have good historical reasons to view Iran (Persia) as a close friend and ally. The Bible contains much evidence that the Hebrews benefitted greatly from their exposure to the rich culture and religion of ancient Persia.

Why then the current day antagonism between Israel and Iran?

Again -- it's about real estate. Iran has stood on principle -- supporting the rights of the Palestinians, which have been crushed by the Zionists.

MHG
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Old 05-10-2013, 08:57 AM   #37
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Why then the current day antagonism between Israel and Iran?

Again -- it's about real estate. Iran has stood on principle -- supporting the rights of the Palestinians, which have been crushed by the Zionists.

MHG
"Iran has stood on principle"

Dude, Persia wasn't Islamic. It was invaded by Arabs and converted by force. Much like what would happen to Israel today if your guys had their way. Pretending that Iran and Persia are the same thing is precious, but in reality is just another one of your red-herrings to avoid answering the real question...

When did the Palestinians rule Palestine? Crickets.... chirping.... chirp chirp
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Old 05-10-2013, 09:06 AM   #38
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Didn't read.
Neither did Nixon.
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:36 AM   #39
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Old 05-10-2013, 04:40 PM   #40
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"Iran has stood on principle"

Dude, Persia wasn't Islamic. It was invaded by Arabs and converted by force. Much like what would happen to Israel today if your guys had their way. Pretending that Iran and Persia are the same thing is precious, but in reality is just another one of your red-herrings to avoid answering the real question...

When did the Palestinians rule Palestine? Crickets.... chirping.... chirp chirp
Here are some facts to chew on:

Iran is one of the oldest and culturally richest nations on the planet.

Iran is NOT Arab -- except for the southwestern corner.

The Iranians are proud of their Persian and Islamic history.

Israel has no intention of militarily occupying and annexing Iran. Rather, Israel's present (sic) leadership simply wants to level the place --- that is -- to destroy the infrastructure of yet another nation -- to eliminate all opposition to their goal of regional hegemony.

Their regional ambition folds nicely into the US global goal of full spectrum dominance --
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