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Old 05-08-2013, 01:25 PM   #451
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Tebow is a nice guy, but no way is he cool, man
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Old 05-08-2013, 01:51 PM   #452
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You should watch today's first take. This was its subject. I agree with Smith that the rabid idiots DO have an impact on it. It doesn't matter how many there are or aren't. It's the annoying persistence of denial and entitlement. Smith said if his fanbase would just shut up and be quiet about the guy, that there would be SOME interest from teams. I agree with some of that. On the other hand, if he was any good he would be on a team. So in that sense it does come down to football.
I think it's affecting things now, because coaches don't want the media hassle. I don't think they worry about internet postings. It's the ESPN media hassle.

I don't think it was any significant factor on John Elway's decision-making. Nor do I think it was any kind of problem at all (the pro-Tebow sentiment).

If anything, the regret would be the absolute waste of time and games spent playing Kyle Orton. He was a polished passer that's always going to look decent running an offense he knows. They should have put Tebow on an RGIII type of offense/plan, and by the end of his second year we might have seen the clutch-ness that he showed, combined with more polish and confidence in pulling the trigger on some throws.
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Old 05-08-2013, 02:25 PM   #453
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I think it's affecting things now, because coaches don't want the media hassle. I don't think they worry about internet postings. It's the ESPN media hassle.

I don't think it was any significant factor on John Elway's decision-making. Nor do I think it was any kind of problem at all (the pro-Tebow sentiment).

If anything, the regret would be the absolute waste of time and games spent playing Kyle Orton. He was a polished passer that's always going to look decent running an offense he knows. They should have put Tebow on an RGIII type of offense/plan, and by the end of his second year we might have seen the clutch-ness that he showed, combined with more polish and confidence in pulling the trigger on some throws.
Coaches also don't want the home crowd to start a chant of the backup QB's name just because their starter might be struggling in one game.

I blame both Orton...and the "Tebow wars" on McDaniels. He did everything that could possibly be done to set back this franchise. Elway had a daunting task ahead of him to "right the ship" and has done so far sooner than expected.

That said, the circus was in Denver far too recently for revisionist history to enjoy much success. Tebow was a polarizing player; there was little or no "middle ground"; fans either passionately supported him or fervently looked forward to his exit from Denver. And it was open warfare between the two factions. Dunno exactly why he sparked such "engraved-in-granite" opinions within the fanbase, but it's unrealistic to deny that's what happened.
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Old 05-08-2013, 02:28 PM   #454
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Confidence pulling the trigger isn't the problem. He's just not accurate. An RG3 offense requires an accurate QB. They don't even have the same style. I don't see him running the pistol. Doesn't protect the ball nearly enough and you need to be able to read defenses. Tebow had trouble remembering the play he just said in the huddle at the line of scrimmage.

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Old 05-08-2013, 02:54 PM   #455
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You should watch today's first take. This was its subject. I agree with Smith that the rabid idiots DO have an impact on it. It doesn't matter how many there are or aren't. It's the annoying persistence of denial and entitlement. Smith said if his fanbase would just shut up and be quiet about the guy, that there would be SOME interest from teams. I agree with some of that. On the other hand, if he was any good he would be on a team. So in that sense it does come down to football.
I'll take "Things you should never do for $800, Alex" If you're watching First Take, you're doing life wrong.
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:00 PM   #456
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Let me just say this one time and one time only: John Elway and John Fox could have handled any and all of the above. It was not a problem. If Tebow could play the position to their liking, they would have kept him (assuming they couldn't get Peyton). The reason Tebow is not playing for the Broncos is that he was evaluated to be not good enough at throwing a football. It is not some natural consequence of a "Tebow circus." No matter how much you may want it to be Tebow and his fans getting their just deserts, it comes down to football.
I agree, that had Tim shown more prowess in throwing the ball he would have remained a Bronco regardless of if we signed Manning. But he didn't so he's not.

My point is that when you have a QB who cannot throw the ball that also has adoring Bieber-esque fans who will wish harm to other players and wish death upon Bronco greats like Elway too? That's what makes it a circus that nobody wants. If it had been similar to the Morton-Staubach or Montana-Young debate, etc. your point would be more valid.
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:11 PM   #457
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I'll take "Things you should never do for $800, Alex" If you're watching First Take, you're doing life wrong.
Ill watch a little white on black, or black on white crime every now and then. Sprinkle in a chick.
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Old 05-08-2013, 04:32 PM   #458
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Tebow was a polarizing player; there was little or no "middle ground"; fans either passionately supported him or fervently looked forward to his exit from Denver. And it was open warfare between the two factions. Dunno exactly why he sparked such "engraved-in-granite" opinions within the fanbase, but it's unrealistic to deny that's what happened.
Tebow is extremely polarizing, always has been. It's one the things that first fascinated me about him. Didn't mean to imply he wasn't polarizing -- people tend to really like him or really not like him.

No, I was referring more to the "circus" concept, where Tebow's fans supposedly made it difficult while he was in Denver. It's overblown, a cherished myth. The supposed effect of the "chanting," all of that.

It was all completely manageable. If he had played like Russell Wilson it would have not been an issue. If he hadn't won those games, it would have not been an issue.

Adam Schefter said it best when he said the problem with Tebow is he keeps proving both his fans and his critics right. Because in a very real sense, they are both right (at least partially).
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Old 05-08-2013, 04:34 PM   #459
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My point is that when you have a QB who cannot throw the ball that also has adoring Bieber-esque fans who will wish harm to other players and wish death upon Bronco greats like Elway too? That's what makes it a circus that nobody wants. If it had been similar to the Morton-Staubach or Montana-Young debate, etc. your point would be more valid.
His fans aren't Bieber-esque, they don't wish harm on other players, or wish death upon Elway. Those are all generalizations without a valid basis to apply them a wide class of fans.

By and large, his fans are good to great people. You just can't generalize from reading things typed on a keyboard for the internet. That goes for politics, movies, and the NFL.
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Old 05-08-2013, 04:43 PM   #460
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His fans aren't Bieber-esque, they don't wish harm on other players, or wish death upon Elway. Those are all generalizations without a valid basis to apply them a wide class of fans.

By and large, his fans are good to great people. You just can't generalize from reading things typed on a keyboard for the internet. That goes for politics, movies, and the NFL.
Aren't you simply generalizing in the opposite direction? "By and large" in fact is an idiom for generalization.
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Old 05-08-2013, 04:51 PM   #461
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Aren't you simply generalizing in the opposite direction? "By and large" in fact is an idiom for generalization.
Yes. There's nothing inherently wrong with generalizing, especially positive generalizations. I'm saying that the single or few incidents are not enough to draw a valid generalization -- such as "Tebow fans wanted Elway dead" or "Tebow fans wanted Orton to get hurt."

I know many, many fans of Tebow, and so I'm reporting to you that they are generally good to great people. Hopefully that doesn't surprise you.
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Old 05-08-2013, 04:56 PM   #462
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The thing about "Tebow fans" is that there such unprecedented HUGE numbers of them. Like, so many that nobody can explain it adequately. They not only deluge any internet poll, but they're out there in the real world, too. That Forbes poll concluding he is the most influential figure in sports right now was conducted by Nielsen -- scientific sampling and all that. It really has become a huge segment of the country. He's sort of like Rudy (and underdog), but also kind of gifted in enough ways. Heck, I even think his name has something to do with it -- "Tim Tebow." I think it has an auditory ring that sort of drills into people's subconscious.

But anyway, here's the point of the huge numbers -- it means there are more numbers of every kind and strip. So more crazies. More internet warriors. But also more regular guys. More detached people that never post on the internet. More people of balanced opinion that have a very well adjusted view of his outlook. But the internet is always the most passionate and strange segment -- that's true of anything.

And so it is not a strong or valid conclusion to generalize about Tebow's fans from things posted on the internet by some of them.
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Old 05-08-2013, 05:10 PM   #463
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Yes. There's nothing inherently wrong with generalizing, especially positive generalizations. I'm saying that the single or few incidents are not enough to draw a valid generalization -- such as "Tebow fans wanted Elway dead" or "Tebow fans wanted Orton to get hurt."

I know many, many fans of Tebow, and so I'm reporting to you that they are generally good to great people. Hopefully that doesn't surprise you.
You are aren't quite seeing the flaw in what you are saying. You seem to be claiming that your personal evidence based on being a fan and knowing some is perfectly adequate to assume the attitude of the majority...while at the same time claiming the the evidence that others are basing their generalizations isn't strong enough.

The question is....what makes you an expert on the majority of Tebow fans? What special fan access and information are you privy to that those with an opposite opinion are not?
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Old 05-08-2013, 05:39 PM   #464
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You are aren't quite seeing the flaw in what you are saying. You seem to be claiming that your personal evidence based on being a fan and knowing some is perfectly adequate to assume the attitude of the majority...while at the same time claiming the the evidence that others are basing their generalizations isn't strong enough.

The question is....what makes you an expert on the majority of Tebow fans? What special fan access and information are you privy to that those with an opposite opinion are not?
Not an expert, nothing special. Just pointing out that it is not a valid generalization to take one instance, that you know of, and apply it to a wide class of Tebow fans. So, to repeat the same example, if someone wishes death on Elway, it is not a valid generalization to say "Tebow fans wished death on Elway." Technically speaking, it could be possible that Tebow fans generally wished death on Elway. The point is the known instance is not enough to draw a generalization.

To give another, more controversial generalization -- if a black person tweeted that he would assassinate Romney if he won the election, it is not a valid generalization to say "Black people wanted to assassinate Romney." And if I said, "by and large, the black people I know are good people who don't want to assassinate Romney," you'd probably give me that.

By the way -- I did go to UF. I know tons of people who are huge fans of Tebow. I don't have special knowledge, but years and years of experience talking and dwelling amongst them. If you're open to believing something good about people, I can tell you that the things you read on the internet are not a good thing to draw generalizations from. (Which is an intuitively true assertion, when you think about it).
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Old 05-08-2013, 05:44 PM   #465
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I always laugh when the Tebowners say "we should of ran X offense with Tebow"

He cant throw the ball, there is no offense outside of the wishbone to run with a qb that cant throw the ball

He cant run RGIIIs offense because Griffin is actually a very accurate passer

People forget that he was one of the more polished passers in the country at Baylor and is not just some athlete playing the qb position
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Old 05-08-2013, 05:56 PM   #466
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I always laugh when the Tebowners say "we should of ran X offense with Tebow"
But doesn't it seem like those people were onto something? Obviously, if "he can't throw the ball," then sure, execute him. Cut him.

But assuming that the idea at the time was to develop him, it seems like the thinking would be to put him in a shotgun-oriented offense, with spread concepts, etc.

See, at the time, there were furious internet arguments along the lines of "This is the NFL. Those concepts don't work here. You're quarterback can't run it because they will hurt him. You have to drop back from under center anyway."

Then came Cam Newton.
Then came RGIII.
Then came Kapernick and Wilson.

And so give credit where credit was due -- there was a trend coming towards incorporating more of this stuff.

After all this, it seems like the goalposts moved to just "Tebow can't throw." (I think the idea was his mechanics would be retooled, at least, ahem, a little more quickly than they have). But if you'll think back, and be honest with yourself, there were a lot of legitimate points about the success a QB-run oriented, shotgun spread could have. And a lot of doubters about that working at the NFL have been proven wrong (or at least the jury is still out).
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Old 05-08-2013, 06:00 PM   #467
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All those players you mentioned have speed. Speed is just about the only thing that matters as a running QB, unless you happen to be Cam Newton at 260 pounds. They can also all throw the football. If you can't throw in the NFL, you can't run in the NFL (consistently and in a manner that, you know, scores points). This is not rocket science.
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Old 05-08-2013, 06:07 PM   #468
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But doesn't it seem like those people were onto something? Obviously, if "he can't throw the ball," then sure, execute him. Cut him.

But assuming that the idea at the time was to develop him, it seems like the thinking would be to put him in a shotgun-oriented offense, with spread concepts, etc.

See, at the time, there were furious internet arguments along the lines of "This is the NFL. Those concepts don't work here. You're quarterback can't run it because they will hurt him. You have to drop back from under center anyway."

Then came Cam Newton.
Then came RGIII.
Then came Kapernick and Wilson.

And so give credit where credit was due -- there was a trend coming towards incorporating more of this stuff.

After all this, it seems like the goalposts moved to just "Tebow can't throw." (I think the idea was his mechanics would be retooled, at least, ahem, a little more quickly than they have). But if you'll think back, and be honest with yourself, there were a lot of legitimate points about the success a QB-run oriented, shotgun spread could have. And a lot of doubters about that working at the NFL have been proven wrong (or at least the jury is still out).
No they werent
Stop comparing him to other mobile qbs, these other guys can actually pass the ball
Griffin, Newton, and Wilson are no where near as limited as a passer as Tebow

He cant throw the ball after being in the league for 3 years, he has no long term role as a qb because of this
The whole argument hinges on the idea that he will become an acceptable passer and he isnt even close

The Jets coaches had to get on him about running in a 7 on 7 drill
He just isnt grasping the game mentally

It doesnt matter what offense you put him in, he doesnt make reads and deliver the ball with any sort of accuracy
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Old 05-08-2013, 06:26 PM   #469
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But doesn't it seem like those people were onto something? Obviously, if "he can't throw the ball," then sure, execute him. Cut him.

But assuming that the idea at the time was to develop him, it seems like the thinking would be to put him in a shotgun-oriented offense, with spread concepts, etc.

See, at the time, there were furious internet arguments along the lines of "This is the NFL. Those concepts don't work here. You're quarterback can't run it because they will hurt him. You have to drop back from under center anyway."

Then came Cam Newton.
Then came RGIII.
Then came Kapernick and Wilson.

And so give credit where credit was due -- there was a trend coming towards incorporating more of this stuff.

After all this, it seems like the goalposts moved to just "Tebow can't throw." (I think the idea was his mechanics would be retooled, at least, ahem, a little more quickly than they have). But if you'll think back, and be honest with yourself, there were a lot of legitimate points about the success a QB-run oriented, shotgun spread could have. And a lot of doubters about that working at the NFL have been proven wrong (or at least the jury is still out).

All those players have speed. And all of them throw it a helluva lot better. People need to quit comparing tebow with completely different QBs. And none of them are running a strictly college offense. You can bet though that down the road the injuries will pile up. It already is in some of those players. Are you assuming that tebow should get the credit?
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Old 05-08-2013, 06:52 PM   #470
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All those players have speed. And all of them throw it a helluva lot better. People need to quit comparing tebow with completely different QBs. And none of them are running a strictly college offense. You can bet though that down the road the injuries will pile up. It already is in some of those players. Are you assuming that tebow should get the credit?
This was before those players -- remember? All the flame wars about a more spread concept, shotgun offense where the quarteback's ability to run is exploited?

It is a trend. People that suggested it was the right offense to put Tebow in were correct. Those quarterbacks I listed up there were not in the league Tebow's first year.

The trend was coming anyway -- Tebow doesn't get the "credit." I think McD had something like that in mind (we'll never know). Trends come and go in the NFL.

Nobody ever wanted a "strictly college offense." And I think the assumption would be that Tebow can throw. Again, if you go with the conclusion that "Tebow can't throw," none of the other discussions have any point whatsoever.

The point was that anybody who suggested Tebow should be in a different offensive attack than Kyle Orton -- those people were correct. It was not a laughable thing to say. On the contrary, it was a conventional thing to say.
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Old 05-08-2013, 07:19 PM   #471
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Tim Tebow was in a "different offensive attack" than Kyle Orton. Do you watch football? What part of the Tim Tebow Broncos resembled any part of the Kyle Orton Broncos?
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Old 05-08-2013, 07:19 PM   #472
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This was before those players -- remember? All the flame wars about a more spread concept, shotgun offense where the quarteback's ability to run is exploited?

It is a trend. People that suggested it was the right offense to put Tebow in were correct. Those quarterbacks I listed up there were not in the league Tebow's first year.

The trend was coming anyway -- Tebow doesn't get the "credit." I think McD had something like that in mind (we'll never know). Trends come and go in the NFL.

Nobody ever wanted a "strictly college offense." And I think the assumption would be that Tebow can throw. Again, if you go with the conclusion that "Tebow can't throw," none of the other discussions have any point whatsoever.

The point was that anybody who suggested Tebow should be in a different offensive attack than Kyle Orton -- those people were correct. It was not a laughable thing to say. On the contrary, it was a conventional thing to say.
It was a dumbed down offense that produced nothing in games but 3 and outs. Those QBs you mention don't run anything like that. Theirs are more complex and requires accurate passing. Alex smith lost his job cause he couldn't throw it accurately. Kaep can. The offense changed not because tebow can succeed in a certain offense, it changed cause he couldn't run even the basic one. You call it the option spread or whatever, I call it the lumberjack cloud of dust. If you're suggesting tebow should get credit for the pistol offense then that's laughable.

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Old 05-08-2013, 07:20 PM   #473
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Old 05-08-2013, 07:40 PM   #474
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Tebow is extremely polarizing, always has been. It's one the things that first fascinated me about him. Didn't mean to imply he wasn't polarizing -- people tend to really like him or really not like him.

No, I was referring more to the "circus" concept, where Tebow's fans supposedly made it difficult while he was in Denver. It's overblown, a cherished myth. The supposed effect of the "chanting," all of that.

It was all completely manageable. If he had played like Russell Wilson it would have not been an issue. If he hadn't won those games, it would have not been an issue.

Adam Schefter said it best when he said the problem with Tebow is he keeps proving both his fans and his critics right. Because in a very real sense, they are both right (at least partially).
Sharp division of the fanbase, particularly when there is also open animosity between factions is never, ever a good thing. There should be no circumstances in which any "given" Bronco fan would even consider clicking "Submit Reply" on a post that fantasizes what would happen if the team's owner, GM, and the most popular player who ever wore orange n' blue... were to be killed in a plane crash... on a Broncos forum. Elway and Bowlen... and even Xanders... should have been afforded more respect than that.

No, the circus did (and does) exist... there were (are) "clowns" everywhere; in real life and in cyberspace... and sufficient time to forget it has not yet passed.
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Old 05-08-2013, 08:17 PM   #475
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Sharp division of the fanbase, particularly when there is also open animosity between factions is never, ever a good thing. There should be no circumstances in which any "given" Bronco fan would even consider clicking "Submit Reply" on a post that fantasizes what would happen if the team's owner, GM, and the most popular player who ever wore orange n' blue... were to be killed in a plane crash... on a Broncos forum. Elway and Bowlen... and even Xanders... should have been afforded more respect than that.
I agree, that's terrible. I encourage you not to draw any conclusions or generalizations about a wider group of people from it. And that goes for political discussions on the internet, Facebook threads, Youtube comments, and those little comments at the bottom of newspaper articles.

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No, the circus did (and does) exist... there were (are) "clowns" everywhere; in real life and in cyberspace... and sufficient time to forget it has not yet passed.
Agreed, there are clowns everywhere, in real life and in cyberspace.
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