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Old 04-29-2013, 03:16 PM   #101
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In 2012 you have Wolfe/Osweiler/Hillman/Bolden/Blake in those slots. Wolfe may be solid, Osweiler is a complete unknown, I'm not thrilled with what I've seen from Hillman but have hope, Bolden is underwhelming thus far, and not enough info on Blake. Even earlier to write any of these guys off. But again, my optimism isn't sky high. Couldn't you see both Hillman and Bolden not panning out? And if so, isn't this draft class also a bit flimsy? Before knowing what you have in Osweiler, of course, but the odds are against him as they are with all QBs.

I don't want to sound like a Debbie Downer here. I'm more being a contrarian than anything. I just see a lot of praise being heaped on the Elway FO and when in comes to the draft I don't think anyone should be anything more than cautiously optimistic.
Elway and the FO deserve all the credit in the world.

Last offseason with Peyton not throwing at 100% and still rehabbing what other option did we have than to go QB in the draft? Rely on Caleb Hanie?


JD Walton had just come off another season being ranked one of the poorest Centers in the league, and we had Porter on a one year deal with Champ aging and no depth other than Harris so ofcourse the team had to go CB.

Hillman is the only one that was a questionable pick. Other than that the FO had to draft for those positions. You may not like the players that were ultimately chosen but the FO had to draft for those positions because they were still cleaning up the cluster **** McDaniels had left behind.

Three years ago when Elway was hired he had a three year plan to get this team back on track.

It's year three and we not only have a playoff calibre set of starters but a young team (for the most part) and young players with a lot of upside playing backup positions with room to improve AND a stable coaching staff to provide scheme stability.

It's up the to players/coaches to do the rest. The FO have already done theirs.

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Old 04-29-2013, 03:38 PM   #102
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One thing Elway and the FO and coaching staff are doing is being patient. They aren't panicing when a player like Irving doesn't come in and immediately produce. In today's NFL, with the fan expectations and whatnot, it's not easy to sit on a player who was drafted in the first 3 rounds because he's simply not ready to play. It's not like McD who traded away what was basically a first round pick after one season. I like the fact that this FO is willing to develop their players.
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Old 04-29-2013, 03:42 PM   #103
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One thing Elway and the FO and coaching staff are doing is being patient. They aren't panicing when a player like Irving doesn't come in and immediately produce. In today's NFL, with the fan expectations and whatnot, it's not easy to sit on a player who was drafted in the first 3 rounds because he's simply not ready to play. It's not like McD who traded away what was basically a first round pick after one season. I like the fact that this FO is willing to develop their players.
I believe it will pay off too, this coaching staff is one of the best in the NFL and Elway has stated several times that the organization's job is to not draft all-pro's but make them.
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Old 04-29-2013, 04:58 PM   #104
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Elway and the FO deserve all the credit in the world.

Last offseason with Peyton not throwing at 100% and still rehabbing what other option did we have than to go QB in the draft? Rely on Caleb Hanie?


JD Walton had just come off another season being ranked one of the poorest Centers in the league, and we had Porter on a one year deal with Champ aging and no depth other than Harris so ofcourse the team had to go CB.

Hillman is the only one that was a questionable pick. Other than that the FO had to draft for those positions. You may not like the players that were ultimately chosen but the FO had to draft for those positions because they were still cleaning up the cluster **** McDaniels had left behind.

Three years ago when Elway was hired he had a three year plan to get this team back on track.

It's year three and we not only have a playoff calibre set of starters but a young team (for the most part) and young players with a lot of upside playing backup positions with room to improve AND a stable coaching staff to provide scheme stability.

It's up the to players/coaches to do the rest. The FO have already done theirs.
Wow, talk about a complete misreading and misrepresentation of my post! I was specifically talking about the draft. My main point is that many of the players they took have a lot to prove. You saying Hillman is the only questionable pick is a joke and you can't really believe that. You can't support the choices of Irving and Bolden, for example, just because those were needs. If those guys don't pan out they were bad picks, plain and simple. And it's fair to question the choice of Os for a win now team. The argument to use that pick on a near term contributor is a strong one.

I'm not condemning the FO or these drafts. Overall this FO has done a great job. But it's more than fair to have questions and concerns about these drafts.
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Old 04-29-2013, 05:00 PM   #105
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I believe it will pay off too, this coaching staff is one of the best in the NFL and Elway has stated several times that the organization's job is to not draft all-pro's but make them.
That is a fantastic sound bite, but every coach in the NFL thinks they can take raw, physically talented kids and "coach them up". I have yet to see it happen with Elways picks so far.

The guys who have produced, came into the league ready to produce. Who is a developmental pick that has panned out yet? Wolfe and Miller came into the league ready to play. Franklin has started from day one, and is a solid player. Quinton Carter looked promising but got injured. Rahim Moore is a replaceable level starting NLF player and nothing special at all yet if ever.

The guys who have produced are the later guys and FA's like Harris, Tony Carter, and such. And, it's not like they have gotten much better.

I am not saying these are poor drafts, on the contrary they have been solid at worst. However, the we draft players and make them all-pros holds no merit at this point.
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Old 04-29-2013, 05:11 PM   #106
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That is a fantastic sound bite, but every coach in the NFL thinks they can take raw, physically talented kids and "coach them up". I have yet to see it happen with Elways picks so far.

The guys who have produced, came into the league ready to produce. Who is a developmental pick that has panned out yet? Wolfe and Miller came into the league ready to play. Franklin has started from day one, and is a solid player. Quinton Carter looked promising but got injured. Rahim Moore is a replaceable level starting NLF player and nothing special at all yet if ever.

The guys who have produced are the later guys and FA's like Harris, Tony Carter, and such. And, it's not like they have gotten much better.

I am not saying these are poor drafts, on the contrary they have been solid at worst. However, the we draft players and make them all-pros holds no merit at this point.
He hasn't had the time to develop the players. They have had two offseason, one of which was significantly reduced. You know it takes time to develop a player.

The 2011 draft has produced 3 immediate starters and one more starter this year (Irivng). The 2012 draft has produced one immediate starter (Wolfe) and three contributors (Trevathan, Jackson, and Hillman).

That's pretty good production.
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Old 04-29-2013, 05:13 PM   #107
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One thing Elway and the FO and coaching staff are doing is being patient. They aren't panicing when a player like Irving doesn't come in and immediately produce. In today's NFL, with the fan expectations and whatnot, it's not easy to sit on a player who was drafted in the first 3 rounds because he's simply not ready to play. It's not like McD who traded away what was basically a first round pick after one season. I like the fact that this FO is willing to develop their players.
It's funny to me that this years draft picks get to start in fan's minds right away, but a draft pick from two years ago can't start in year three because of course, if he was good enough, he would have started already!
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:18 PM   #108
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I went to a USF board and asked them for some thoughts on Kayvon. Here's the thread if you're interested:

http://thebullspen.com/index.php/top...-bronco/page-2
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:31 PM   #109
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I went to a USF board and asked them for some thoughts on Kayvon. Here's the thread if you're interested:

http://thebullspen.com/index.php/top...-bronco/page-2
Interesting read Orange Habit. Good job
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Old 04-30-2013, 02:45 AM   #110
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You can't support the choices of Irving and Bolden, for example, just because those were needs.
Of course I can. They weren't just needs but pretty good prospects chosen at those positions. We didn't reach for those guys or give up a ton to move for them. Bolden was projected to go much higher before his ACL and has the ability to start. Same with Irving if he gets more physical.

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If those guys don't pan out they were bad picks, plain and simple. And it's fair to question the choice of Os for a win now team. The argument to use that pick on a near term contributor is a strong one.
Right, that sounds great and all but at that point Manning wasn't anywhere near 100% and still rehabbing. So you go into the 2012 season with that huge risk and only have Caleb Hanie backing you up? Like I said, you may not like the individual pick but there was a need for it and it's to early to say so and so player would have been better.

But looking at the draft class this year how much better does that Os pick look now?
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Old 04-30-2013, 03:41 AM   #111
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Of course I can. They weren't just needs but pretty good prospects chosen at those positions. We didn't reach for those guys or give up a ton to move for them. Bolden was projected to go much higher before his ACL and has the ability to start. Same with Irving if he gets more physical.



Right, that sounds great and all but at that point Manning wasn't anywhere near 100% and still rehabbing. So you go into the 2012 season with that huge risk and only have Caleb Hanie backing you up? Like I said, you may not like the individual pick but there was a need for it and it's to early to say so and so player would have been better.

But looking at the draft class this year how much better does that Os pick look now?
You do realize they flushed Tebow and Orton when they didnt have to, and could have kept one or the other thus allowing them to take a Lavonte David instead of Oz right? When is he supposed to see the field anyway, year 3, 4, 5? Better QB's were drafted later anyway, including Russel Wilson, Foles and Cousins, who all have a better chance to be franchise makers than Oz ever does of panning out.

Moving back cost them Martin, and instead they Nab Hillman, color me unimpressed. This created a need to go get Bell this year.

If these had been Shanny drafts, this board would be on fire.

The problem is not just the picks, it's the guys that are taken around those picks they are passing by or not making a move to get.

I dont like to go all negative before they ever see the field, but this is year three where every pick after the first ones leaves me feeling like we swung and missed.

When your hanging your hat on Rahim ****ing Moore as the lynch pin of your draft grade, then maybe a few less pats on the back are in order.
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Old 04-30-2013, 03:55 AM   #112
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You do realize they flushed Tebow and Orton when they didnt have to, and could have kept one or the other thus allowing them to take a Lavonte David instead of Oz right? When is he supposed to see the field anyway, year 3, 4, 5? Better QB's were drafted later anyway, including Russel Wilson, Foles and Cousins, who all have a better chance to be franchise makers than Oz ever does of panning out.

Moving back cost them Martin, and instead they Nab Hillman, color me unimpressed. This created a need to go get Bell this year.
Orton/Tebow as backup options? A career backup with zero upside and complete inability to do anything clutch or a guy masquerading as a QB who can barely run a pro style offense?

Those are your options? And you're criticizing the Os pick?

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The problem is not just the picks, it's the guys that are taken around those picks they are passing by or not making a move to get.

I dont like to go all negative before they ever see the field, but this is year three where every pick after the first ones leaves me feeling like we swung and missed.
I can pretty much tell you what a swing and a miss is: It's players drafted in the first two rounds that are no longer in the league - not backups, not average starters - but pretty much out of the league in just a few years.

Guys like Richard Quinn, Tebow, Alphonso Smith, Darcel McBath all taken in the first two rounds under McDaniels.

This FO hasn't hit a home run on every pick taken in the first three rounds but they're doing a lot better than just a swing and miss.

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Old 04-30-2013, 04:18 AM   #113
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Webster ran the 8th fastest 40 in the draft for anyone who is concerned.
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Old 04-30-2013, 04:36 AM   #114
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Orton/Tebow as backup options? A career backup with zero upside and complete inability to do anything clutch or a guy masquerading as a QB who can barely run a pro style offense?

Those are your options? And you're criticizing the Os pick?



I can pretty much tell you what a swing and a miss is: It's players drafted in the first two rounds that are no longer in the league - not backups, not average starters - but pretty much out of the league in just a few years.

Guys like Richard Quinn, Tebow, Alphonso Smith, Darcel McBath all taken in the first two rounds under McDaniels.

This FO hasn't hit a home run on every pick taken in the first three rounds but they're doing a lot better than just a swing and miss.
There was never a need to spend a high pick on a QB after signing Manning. If Manning fails, well your season is shot with or without Oz, and he wasnt even the best option on the board.

So because Elway et al didnt crap themselves on the top picks, the way McDouche did (and really Demaryius Thomas, Beadles, Walton, Decker were pretty good picks) Ayers may be a solid pick, Moreno is kind of a bust. Several other guys contributed like Squid and Cox. Tebow led us to our only playoff win since 2005.

McDouche was the debil.

but he still had several 'hits' in his two drafts, even with pissing away a ton of talent and missing on a boatload of picks.

Elway has been really solid in FA. I dont think you can say that he is knocking it out of the park in the draft though. Shanny didn't either except for a couple of seasons, but his ability to sign FA's masked that for awhile. Doesn't mean that he didn't earn the criticism he got for is draft day gaffe's though.

If the Raiders, Chiefs or Chargers had taken Webster at the same spot, the pick would be mocked on this board. But because we did it...Genius!
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Old 04-30-2013, 04:38 AM   #115
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You do realize they flushed Tebow and Orton when they didnt have to, and could have kept one or the other thus allowing them to take a Lavonte David instead of Oz right? When is he supposed to see the field anyway, year 3, 4, 5? Better QB's were drafted later anyway, including Russel Wilson, Foles and Cousins, who all have a better chance to be franchise makers than Oz ever does of panning out.

Moving back cost them Martin, and instead they Nab Hillman, color me unimpressed. This created a need to go get Bell this year.

If these had been Shanny drafts, this board would be on fire.

The problem is not just the picks, it's the guys that are taken around those picks they are passing by or not making a move to get.

I dont like to go all negative before they ever see the field, but this is year three where every pick after the first ones leaves me feeling like we swung and missed.

When your hanging your hat on Rahim ****ing Moore as the lynch pin of your draft grade, then maybe a few less pats on the back are in order.
Yeah but both Orton and Tebow suck.

You will be proven wrong, but I am sure you will be happy to be proven wrong...... right

And moving back netted them Wolfe. And Wolfe was a bigger acquisition that Martin would have been.
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Old 04-30-2013, 04:39 AM   #116
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You do realize they flushed Tebow and Orton when they didnt have to, and could have kept one or the other thus allowing them to take a Lavonte David instead of Oz right? When is he supposed to see the field anyway, year 3, 4, 5? Better QB's were drafted later anyway, including Russel Wilson, Foles and Cousins, who all have a better chance to be franchise makers than Oz ever does of panning out.

Moving back cost them Martin, and instead they Nab Hillman, color me unimpressed. This created a need to go get Bell this year.

If these had been Shanny drafts, this board would be on fire.

The problem is not just the picks, it's the guys that are taken around those picks they are passing by or not making a move to get.

I dont like to go all negative before they ever see the field, but this is year three where every pick after the first ones leaves me feeling like we swung and missed.

When your hanging your hat on Rahim ****ing Moore as the lynch pin of your draft grade, then maybe a few less pats on the back are in order.
Yeah but both Orton and Tebow suck.

You will be proven wrong, but I am sure you will be happy to be proven wrong...... right

And moving back netted them Wolfe. And Wolfe is a better acquisition that Martin would have been at a much cheaper price.
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Old 04-30-2013, 04:42 AM   #117
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Yeah but both Orton and Tebow suck.

You will be proven wrong, but I am sure you will be happy to be proven wrong...... right

And moving back netted them Wolfe. And Wolfe was a bigger acquisition that Martin would have been.
Most backup QB's suck. Maybe Oz sucks. We wasted a 2nd rounder when there were day 1 starters on the board for a guy that nobody wants to see play until he is a 5th year pro at least.

I hope Webster tears up the league. I cringed at the pick though.
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Old 04-30-2013, 05:15 AM   #118
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Most backup QB's suck. Maybe Oz sucks. We wasted a 2nd rounder when there were day 1 starters on the board for a guy that nobody wants to see play until he is a 5th year pro at least.

I hope Webster tears up the league. I cringed at the pick though.
Webster was a reach, sure but the Broncos liked him. Ar ethey not supposed to draft guys they like because Mel Kiper doesn't have him rated?

As far as Oz, well, the point has already been pointed out to you that no one knew how long Manning was going to play so Elway decided to go get the QB he wanted.

Are you upset Tebow was cut? It seems to me most Broncos' fans are dwelling on the Oz pick anymore.

I still don't see how you say Denver wasted the pick. Did the Packers waste a FIRST round pick on Aaron Rodgers? You do not know what is ahead for Oz on this team, could be greatness and SB MVPs.
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Old 04-30-2013, 05:18 AM   #119
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You do realize they flushed Tebow and Orton when they didnt have to, and could have kept one or the other thus allowing them to take a Lavonte David instead of Oz right? When is he supposed to see the field anyway, year 3, 4, 5? Better QB's were drafted later anyway, including Russel Wilson, Foles and Cousins, who all have a better chance to be franchise makers than Oz ever does of panning out.

Moving back cost them Martin, and instead they Nab Hillman, color me unimpressed. This created a need to go get Bell this year.

If these had been Shanny drafts, this board would be on fire.

The problem is not just the picks, it's the guys that are taken around those picks they are passing by or not making a move to get.

I dont like to go all negative before they ever see the field, but this is year three where every pick after the first ones leaves me feeling like we swung and missed.

When your hanging your hat on Rahim ****ing Moore as the lynch pin of your draft grade, then maybe a few less pats on the back are in order.
Ah no. Orton and Tebow had to go to remove the stench from the lockerroom. I'm sure Tim's a wonderful human and all, but he had McDouche all over him.
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Old 04-30-2013, 05:25 AM   #120
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Webster was a reach, sure but the Broncos liked him. Ar ethey not supposed to draft guys they like because Mel Kiper doesn't have him rated?

As far as Oz, well, the point has already been pointed out to you that no one knew how long Manning was going to play so Elway decided to go get the QB he wanted.

Are you upset Tebow was cut? It seems to me most Broncos' fans are dwelling on the Oz pick anymore.

I still don't see how you say Denver wasted the pick. Did the Packers waste a FIRST round pick on Aaron Rodgers? You do not know what is ahead for Oz on this team, could be greatness and SB MVPs.
Rodgers was being argued as the first overall pick in the draft and fell, fell, fell. Favre had already been floating the retirement balloon. Different reasoning for making the pick.

Denver needed a guy to step on the field. McDouche emptied the cabinents. We got a future guy that Jack likes a whole lot.

As to Webster, same logic was applied to Alphonso Smith. Yeah we got the guy they liked, way before we needed to. If they are right on him, no harm done. Still waiting for the Irvins, Rahim's etc. to pan out though.

I just see alot of blind Elway GM love on here that is not reflected in conversations I have with other Bronco fans IRL. Just a weird subsection that post this time of year I guess.
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Old 04-30-2013, 05:25 AM   #121
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Yeah but both Orton and Tebow suck.

You will be proven wrong, but I am sure you will be happy to be proven wrong...... right

And moving back netted them Wolfe. And Wolfe was a bigger acquisition that Martin would have been.
Wolfe over Martin?? I'll take Martin!
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Old 04-30-2013, 05:30 AM   #122
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Ah no. Orton and Tebow had to go to remove the stench from the lockerroom. I'm sure Tim's a wonderful human and all, but he had McDouche all over him.
Well I agree. But GM Elway didn't need to cut Orton during our stretch run. We got nothing for him and he beat us in a game that could have kept us home. Better to have deactivated his sorry ass and cut him after the season.

Tebow was never going to shake the McD draft stench though. The new braintrust had no attachment. I still think he can make it as an NFL QB, but don't see where that opportunity is going to come from. I also HATED that pick when it was made. So I expect to have a Kayvon Webster Jersey hanging next to my Tebow, Ian Gold, Javon Walker gear some day.
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Old 04-30-2013, 05:31 AM   #123
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Wolfe over Martin?? I'll take Martin!
I was going to post something similar, but it's not fair to judge how the boards turned out after the fact. Still Moore + Martin > Wolfe + Ball IMO.
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Old 04-30-2013, 05:45 AM   #124
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I hear ya. You're giving the glass half full approach, I'm expressing at least mild concern that it could be half empty. I'm big on 2-4 picks being huge for building depth and I worry a little that those picks on the whole might not work out for the Broncos, while agreeing that it's far too early to make a definitive conclusion.
That's a fair take. My contention is with 24champ's claim that we haven't gotten enough instant impact from our picks, and therefore they've been bad drafts, a post you seemed to agree with. That's short-sighted hogwash (to borrow his phrase).

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In 2011 you have Moore/Franklin/Irving/Carter/Thomas in those slots and right now only Franklin looks like a sure win. Moore looks servicable, Irving couldn't unseat Mays or Brooking, not enough info on the others but Carter has shown a little. Again, too early to write any of them off. But how optimistic are you? If Moore doesn't improve measurably and Irving doesn't win the job this class starts to look highly suspect.
I think this is a case of you having unreasonable expectations of draft picks. You're looking for starters when you draft. It'd be nice if they could all be Pro Bowlers, but they can't. Seriously, do you think "good" drafting teams like Baltimore and Green Bay haul two or three Pro Bowlers out of every class? Drafts of that caliber are the exception, not the norm. If we get three or four years of starting out of Rahim Moore, that's a successful pick even if he's never better than "serviceable." So, if we end up with 4-5 multi year starters out of the 2011 draft, that's a helluva class, even if all those guys aren't necessarily world-beaters.

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In 2012 you have Wolfe/Osweiler/Hillman/Bolden/Blake in those slots. Wolfe may be solid, Osweiler is a complete unknown, I'm not thrilled with what I've seen from Hillman but have hope, Bolden is underwhelming thus far, and not enough info on Blake. Even earlier to write any of these guys off. But again, my optimism isn't sky high. Couldn't you see both Hillman and Bolden not panning out? And if so, isn't this draft class also a bit flimsy? Before knowing what you have in Osweiler, of course, but the odds are against him as they are with all QBs.
My only point is that it's waaaaay too early to say anything about the 2012 class. It doesn't bother me that Boldin didn't play much last season. I highly doubt they selected a guy in the 4th round coming off an injury with the anticipation that he would crack the top 3 CBs when we had Champ, Harris, and had just given Porter a $4 million deal (although that did not work out). I'm sure they would have loved it if that had happened, but I doubt it was being counted on. He was a developmental pick, a guy who they saw as a 2nd round talent if he had not been injured. I was okay with Hillman last season. What did you expect, Adrian Peterson production in the 3rd round? Dude weighs a buck eighty, they drafted him to be a change of pace guy. Plus, he's only 20 years old and had to improve and gain experience in pass pro before he would get more PT. Again, I think your expectations for immediate impact outside the top 2 rounds aren't necessarily realistic. Sure, it happens, but it isn't the norm.

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I don't want to sound like a Debbie Downer here. I'm more being a contrarian than anything. I just see a lot of praise being heaped on the Elway FO and when in comes to the draft I don't think anyone should be anything more than cautiously optimistic.
That's fair. Cautious optimism is fine. That was not the tone of 24champ's post that you agreed with.

Last edited by BroncoInferno; 04-30-2013 at 05:51 AM..
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Old 04-30-2013, 05:52 AM   #125
BroncoInferno
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Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: South Carolina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoxman View Post
Wolfe over Martin?? I'll take Martin!
Glad Elway's the GM and not you.
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