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Old 04-29-2013, 11:37 AM   #76
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here's the bottom line. it doesn't matter what you or I think about perceived value.
we can all agree that we want the team to scout their asses off, do their assessment and take the players they truly believe in correct?

that's what this team has done since Elway has taken over and revamped things.
sometimes we'll agree with the pick, other times we won't,
but the only thing that matters is the team getting guys they've graded out highly and want to get on the team.
sexy picks on paper don't win you championships. in most cases it gets you fired.
some of us need to take a step back and realize that this way of drafting and running the front office took us from selecting #2 overall in the draft to being the two time reigning and defending AFC West champs.

if Elway wants to draft Webster who is a multiple asset providing player than i want Webster too.
5-10+ 195 lbs, tackles like a fiend, 4.41 speed, great cover skills and high football IQ.
i don't see the issue with the pick.

eventually(much like with the Seahawks) people will stop saying the Broncos reached for a guy and just say he's a Broncos draft pick and that's what they do.
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Old 04-29-2013, 11:38 AM   #77
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I'm no draft guru or anything, but he does seem to play the run game like a safety. He's fast and can tackle. Almost like an extra defender in the box. It'll be interesting to see how they are going to use him though. I think that when you have a team that is stacked like the Broncos are, you can start to draft for non-base packages. Here we see another example of drafting someone who can perhaps fill a role without having to be an every down player. A safety that you put in on running downs while you have your center fielder type deep safety in Moore (yeah I know how that worked out, but I have a feeling they still see him in that role).

Also, I keep hearing about how this team found Chris Harris when no one else saw him as a pro player. Perhaps the staff shouldn't get the credit they are getting:

"Broncos scout Dave Ziegler walked into the office of the team's new head coach with some options. One cornerback had track speed. another had some size and played in a big college program. yet another was smart and a four-year starter at kansas.
'Take the smart one who started four years at Kansas,' John Fox said.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how the Broncos acquired Chris Harris"

From this Kiz article
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Old 04-29-2013, 11:47 AM   #78
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I'm no draft guru or anything, but he does seem to play the run game like a safety. He's fast and can tackle. Almost like an extra defender in the box. It'll be interesting to see how they are going to use him though. I think that when you have a team that is stacked like the Broncos are, you can start to draft for non-base packages. Here we see another example of drafting someone who can perhaps fill a role without having to be an every down player. A safety that you put in on running downs while you have your center fielder type deep safety in Moore (yeah I know how that worked out, but I have a feeling they still see him in that role).

Also, I keep hearing about how this team found Chris Harris when no one else saw him as a pro player. Perhaps the staff shouldn't get the credit they are getting:

"Broncos scout Dave Ziegler walked into the office of the team's new head coach with some options. One cornerback had track speed. another had some size and played in a big college program. yet another was smart and a four-year starter at kansas.
'Take the smart one who started four years at Kansas,' John Fox said.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how the Broncos acquired Chris Harris"

From this Kiz article

Here's my take, Webster was drafted to become our Troy Polamalu and that is the say reason Bellicheck went personally to interview him 2 weeks before the draft.
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Old 04-29-2013, 12:29 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Lestat View Post
here's the bottom line. it doesn't matter what you or I think about perceived value.
we can all agree that we want the team to scout their asses off, do their assessment and take the players they truly believe in correct?

that's what this team has done since Elway has taken over and revamped things.
sometimes we'll agree with the pick, other times we won't,
but the only thing that matters is the team getting guys they've graded out highly and want to get on the team.
sexy picks on paper don't win you championships. in most cases it gets you fired.
some of us need to take a step back and realize that this way of drafting and running the front office took us from selecting #2 overall in the draft to being the two time reigning and defending AFC West champs.

if Elway wants to draft Webster who is a multiple asset providing player than i want Webster too.
5-10+ 195 lbs, tackles like a fiend, 4.41 speed, great cover skills and high football IQ.i don't see the issue with the pick.

eventually(much like with the Seahawks) people will stop saying the Broncos reached for a guy and just say he's a Broncos draft pick and that's what they do.
The problem is, that is NOT what is on tape in Bold. In fact, its the exact opposite. He allows a ton of seperation (Cover Skills) and constantly is slow to react on pass and run plays (football IQ). The Physical part I see, the other stuff I do not.

I just do not see where people infer he can cover or read the game.
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Old 04-29-2013, 12:30 PM   #80
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Here's my take, Webster was drafted to become our Troy Polamalu and that is the say reason Bellicheck went personally to interview him 2 weeks before the draft.
You crack me up sometimes.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:12 PM   #81
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The problem is, that is NOT what is on tape in Bold. In fact, its the exact opposite. He allows a ton of seperation (Cover Skills) and constantly is slow to react on pass and run plays (football IQ). The Physical part I see, the other stuff I do not.

I just do not see where people infer he can cover or read the game.
i've looked at as much tape as i could find of him since the pick was announced.
you probably have access to much more tape than i do but i see an aggressive corner who takes a few risks(sometimes when he shouldn't) and played in a system that didn't fully showcase his skillset.

similar to Dysert and his ups and downs at Miami(OH).
if he had a more stable system in place i think he would show better on tape.
not that it isn't a potential issue. but i think he will do very well for us and could team with Bolden in the future to give us a very nice CB tandem in the future.

maybe he moves to safety because he's a bit bigger for a shorter CB.
but from what i've been able to watch he is a guy that has the ability and considerable skills but he needs refinement.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:20 PM   #82
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From a guy who has watched a lot of football but is not an expert on talent evaluations, i.e. myself, he reminds me of Patrick Peterson when I watch him play on video. His stature and athleticism.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:45 PM   #83
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The Broncos made it well known that they were interested in upgrading the CB position. After they picked in round two, 10 CBs went and the run happened. They got rolled. There is no logical argument that can be made that Webster was their BPA on their board at the time. It simply isn't true. You can tell by the way Fox and Elway answered their question(s) regarding him at the presser that it was indeed a reach and they felt the need to get one.

They missed out on Rhodes, who was their top priority at #28 and panicked when the corners kept going on the board. They should have realized this and made a move up to get the prospect they really wanted (I have heard numerous reports on McFadden and Wreh-Wilson because of their man skills) instead of taking Webster. I am surprised they didn't take B.W. Webb over him and would have actually LIKED that selection at that point in time.

I am not generalizing, but the kid sounds dumb as bricks and sounded generally surprised that he even went that high. He also played zone coverage and has very little, if any ball skills. He has all-world athleticism and good size, but he plays flat footed and has cement feet on the field. I said this numerous times when people talked about his combine. There is no doubt this guy is only going to register on special teams this year because the learning curve he has mentally to adjust to the pro game and a new scheme (being used differently than he ever has) is going to take several years. I think his traits will work better in man coverage, but why the heck would the Broncos take a guy that early knowing full well that he is MORE THAN A PROJECT. Simple: They panicked.

Those are the reasons why the pick sucks, especially when there were dozens of quality players who could have seen the field this way in more ways than special teams on this squad. Anyone who is arguing otherwise hasn't ever seen Webster play or is blindly trusting the front office. Bottom line, a ran happen, the Broncos sat idle and they made a significant reach (at least a round) for a guy who isn't going to see much time on the field. It is really unacceptable. Everyone who is against this picks HOPES to be proven wrong, but I am willing to bet it doesn't happen.

This is what is frustrating about the Broncos. Outside of Von Miller, Rahim Moore (who needs to step it up), Orlando Franklin and Derek Wolfe, none of their picks taken (11 -- seven being in rounds two and three) under Elway's tenure have made a significant impact on the field. Three of those guys have been fantastic players early in their careers, and I am hopeful Moore can make it four. Then again, when you are picking those guys in the Top 50 -- you should be diligent enough in your scouting to not mess up. So there aren't going to be many "atta boys" for getting the job done when it is self-evident that it needs to.

Obviously Hillman, Osweiler and a few others are at least in the cards, and Quinton Carter gets the benefit of the doubt because of microfracture surgery, but when you have 11 picks in the top 110 overall in two years, you expect more than a handful of them to start games. To use the excuse that this roster doesn't have the "room" for rookies to see playing time is hogwash.

This year Williams and Ball as top two picks will have the ability to make impacts immediately. I also feel that King (who I loved), Smith and the rest of our Day 3 selections offer something to the team down the road. It is just very, very difficult as a fan to see the team mortgaging value the past two years in rounds three and four when they were absolutely loaded. It will take a few years to see how things pan out, but there are a lot of other teams who have performed well with their selections in those rounds and are having contributions early.

Denver needs more than a one or two guys from their rookie classes to start games. It's nice to see some guys in the later rounds making special teams and sub-package contributions, but it hurts to see middle round guys not performing. Here is hoping they do.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:52 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Mediator12 View Post
The problem is, that is NOT what is on tape in Bold. In fact, its the exact opposite. He allows a ton of seperation (Cover Skills) and constantly is slow to react on pass and run plays (football IQ). The Physical part I see, the other stuff I do not.

I just do not see where people infer he can cover or read the game.
I think the pundits say he's good at one on one and bad in zone coverage as he is slow to react when in zone, perhaps he doesn't break on the ball very well? Hard to really know why he was decent at man coverage (aside from concrete hands which many a DB has) and bad in zone coverage. Perhaps it was bad coaching? Perhaps he didn't trust the other guys to do their jobs? It could be a combination of things.

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Old 04-29-2013, 01:54 PM   #85
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The Broncos made it well known that they were interested in upgrading the CB position. After they picked in round two, 10 CBs went and the run happened. They got rolled. There is no logical argument that can be made that Webster was their BPA on their board at the time. It simply isn't true. You can tell by the way Fox and Elway answered their question(s) regarding him at the presser that it was indeed a reach and they felt the need to get one.

They missed out on Rhodes, who was their top priority at #28 and panicked when the corners kept going on the board. They should have realized this and made a move up to get the prospect they really wanted (I have heard numerous reports on McFadden and Wreh-Wilson because of their man skills) instead of taking Webster. I am surprised they didn't take B.W. Webb over him and would have actually LIKED that selection at that point in time.

I am not generalizing, but the kid sounds dumb as bricks and sounded generally surprised that he even went that high. He also played zone coverage and has very little, if any ball skills. He has all-world athleticism and good size, but he plays flat footed and has cement feet on the field. I said this numerous times when people talked about his combine. There is no doubt this guy is only going to register on special teams this year because the learning curve he has mentally to adjust to the pro game and a new scheme (being used differently than he ever has) is going to take several years. I think his traits will work better in man coverage, but why the heck would the Broncos take a guy that early knowing full well that he is MORE THAN A PROJECT. Simple: They panicked.

Those are the reasons why the pick sucks, especially when there were dozens of quality players who could have seen the field this way in more ways than special teams on this squad. Anyone who is arguing otherwise hasn't ever seen Webster play or is blindly trusting the front office. Bottom line, a ran happen, the Broncos sat idle and they made a significant reach (at least a round) for a guy who isn't going to see much time on the field. It is really unacceptable. Everyone who is against this picks HOPES to be proven wrong, but I am willing to bet it doesn't happen.

This is what is frustrating about the Broncos. Outside of Von Miller, Rahim Moore (who needs to step it up), Orlando Franklin and Derek Wolfe, none of their picks taken (11 -- seven being in rounds two and three) under Elway's tenure have made a significant impact on the field. Three of those guys have been fantastic players early in their careers, and I am hopeful Moore can make it four. Then again, when you are picking those guys in the Top 50 -- you should be diligent enough in your scouting to not mess up. So there aren't going to be many "atta boys" for getting the job done when it is self-evident that it needs to.

Obviously Hillman, Osweiler and a few others are at least in the cards, and Quinton Carter gets the benefit of the doubt because of microfracture surgery, but when you have 11 picks in the top 110 overall in two years, you expect more than a handful of them to start games. To use the excuse that this roster doesn't have the "room" for rookies to see playing time is hogwash.

This year Williams and Ball as top two picks will have the ability to make impacts immediately. I also feel that King (who I loved), Smith and the rest of our Day 3 selections offer something to the team down the road. It is just very, very difficult as a fan to see the team mortgaging value the past two years in rounds three and four when they were absolutely loaded. It will take a few years to see how things pan out, but there are a lot of other teams who have performed well with their selections in those rounds and are having contributions early.

Denver needs more than a one or two guys from their rookie classes to start games. It's nice to see some guys in the later rounds making special teams and sub-package contributions, but it hurts to see middle round guys not performing. Here is hoping they do.
blah, blah, blah... didn't read.
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Old 04-29-2013, 02:09 PM   #86
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blah, blah, blah... didn't read.
Yeah, sorry forgot that reading more than one or two sentences is too complex for you. I'll draw out my response in crayons for you next time.
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Old 04-29-2013, 02:14 PM   #87
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Yeah, sorry forgot that reading more than one or two sentences is too complex for you. I'll draw out my response in crayons for you next time.
pictures always help!
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Old 04-29-2013, 02:20 PM   #88
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...This is what is frustrating about the Broncos. Outside of Von Miller, Rahim Moore (who needs to step it up), Orlando Franklin and Derek Wolfe, none of their picks taken (11 -- seven being in rounds two and three) under Elway's tenure have made a significant impact on the field. Three of those guys have been fantastic players early in their careers, and I am hopeful Moore can make it four. Then again, when you are picking those guys in the Top 50 -- you should be diligent enough in your scouting to not mess up. So there aren't going to be many "atta boys" for getting the job done when it is self-evident that it needs to...
Yup, good post. I was going to say pretty much the same thing yesterday but didn't want to be too negative so just let it be. But you're right. And you're being generous with Moore who hasn't yet proven to be a good pick. So I'd say that outside of Von and Franklin these guys have a lot to prove. Far too early to write all these picks off, but not too early to be a little concerned with this FO's drafting prowess. And if not for luring in Manning (and now Welker) and finding Harris things could possibly be downright bleak!
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Old 04-29-2013, 02:21 PM   #89
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blah, blah, blah... didn't read.
Then why bother reposting the whole thing?
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Old 04-29-2013, 02:30 PM   #90
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Yup, good post.
No, it isn't. It's a highly myopic post. Let's take a look at the 2011 draft: after not drafting a single LB over the weekend, it's pretty clear that Elway is serious about Nate Irving starting. If that's the case, on opening day the first four selections of Elway's tenure will be starting. And that leaves out the fifth pick, Quentin Carter, who started as a rookie and was injured last season. You get four, possibly five starters out of any draft, and that is a helluva job. Period. You may have long-term questions about some of those guys, and that's fair, but every draftee isn't going to be a Pro Bowler, nor is that expected. Oh, and don't forget about nabbing Harris as an UDFA.

The 2012 draft is still up in the air, but we got significant contributions from Wolfe, Hillman and Trevathan. The latter two may not have set the world afire, but they were 3rd and 6th rounders. What'd you expect? Guys like Osweiler, Bolden and Blake probably never figured significantly in the immediate plans given what was ahead of them. Let's wait and see with that class, shall we?

You'll get no argument from me on the Webster pick. I think 24champ's characterization is probably at least somewhat accurate. Maybe I wouldn't use the word "panic," but there was probably a lot of rationalizing going on in the war room to convince themselves that he was the best value. Otherwise, I'm not sure what there is to complain about with this class. Good value at positions of need.

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Old 04-29-2013, 02:41 PM   #91
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.
You mean I shoulda done something like this?
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Old 04-29-2013, 02:46 PM   #92
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Guy sounds like a nickel and dime corner specializing in TE coverage and with NE factoring to be the biggest conference threat again this year that's not a bad thing to get better at.

plus like others have said, being good in special teams is an underrated asset.
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Old 04-29-2013, 02:52 PM   #93
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...

This is what is frustrating about the Broncos. Outside of Von Miller, Rahim Moore (who needs to step it up), Orlando Franklin and Derek Wolfe, none of their picks taken (11 -- seven being in rounds two and three) under Elway's tenure have made a significant impact on the field. Three of those guys have been fantastic players early in their careers, and I am hopeful Moore can make it four. Then again, when you are picking those guys in the Top 50 -- you should be diligent enough in your scouting to not mess up. So there aren't going to be many "atta boys" for getting the job done when it is self-evident that it needs to.

Obviously Hillman, Osweiler and a few others are at least in the cards, and Quinton Carter gets the benefit of the doubt because of microfracture surgery, but when you have 11 picks in the top 110 overall in two years, you expect more than a handful of them to start games. To use the excuse that this roster doesn't have the "room" for rookies to see playing time is hogwash.
...
Ithink you are being a bit dramatic.

Here are the 11 guys drafted in the top 110 picks, during the Elway regime:

Von Miller - 31 starts
Rahim Moore - 22 starts
Orlando Franklin - 32 starts
Nate Irving - bit of a disappointment so far
Quinton Carter - 10 starts in 2011, injured most of 2012
-----
Derek Wolfe - 16 starts
Brock Osweiler - starting backup QB
Ronnie Hillman - designated role player
Omar Bolden -
Philip Blake - IR

Who do you count as bad picks? who do you think should have been starting? Bolden gonna beat out Champ/Harris/Porter as a rookie? I don't think so. Quinton started a few, and got hurt. Blake was apparently pushing Walton in the pre-season.

Irving is really the only guy from this group that you could chalk up as a disappointment so far, and he's talked about as being the starting MLB heading into 2013.

eta: I do agree though that the Webster pick was a panic reach of desperation, and that was probably your general point.

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Old 04-29-2013, 03:06 PM   #94
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Ithink you are being a bit dramatic.

Here are the 11 guys drafted in the top 110 picks, during the Elway regime:

Von Miller - 31 starts
Rahim Moore - 22 starts
Orlando Franklin - 32 starts
Nate Irving - bit of a disappointment so far
Quinton Carter - 10 starts in 2011, injured most of 2012
-----
Derek Wolfe - 16 starts
Brock Osweiler - starting backup QB
Ronnie Hillman - designated role player
Omar Bolden -
Philip Blake - IR

Who do you count as bad picks? who do you think should have been starting? Bolden gonna beat out Champ/Harris/Porter as a rookie? I don't think so. Quinton started a few, and got hurt. Blake was apparently pushing Walton in the pre-season.

Irving is really the only guy from this group that you could chalk up as a disappointment so far, and he's talked about as being the starting MLB heading into 2013.
If Irving pans out as the starting MLB then Elway's first draft will be epic. As for last year's draft, if you look at the second round you see two polar opposit draft picks, that is, Wolfe is an immediate starter and Osweiler is the future. It just shows that Elway does have a plan and I don't think he just goes with a feeling or shoots from the hip on these draft picks.
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Old 04-29-2013, 03:09 PM   #95
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Kayvon Webster could get Tony Carter off the field completely...which is all I care about.
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Old 04-29-2013, 03:09 PM   #96
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You mean I shoulda done something like this?
Yes!
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Old 04-29-2013, 03:19 PM   #97
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Very excited about Dysert too. Will not be suprised if he beats out Twilight for the starting QB position after Manning retires. At the very least, either Twilight or Tarzan will provide good trade bait down the line.
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Old 04-29-2013, 03:21 PM   #98
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Kayvon Webster could get Tony Carter off the field completely...which is all I care about.
you really are bad at talent evaluation, aren't you
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Old 04-29-2013, 03:26 PM   #99
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No, it isn't. It's a highly myopic post.
I hear ya. You're giving the glass half full approach, I'm expressing at least mild concern that it could be half empty. I'm big on 2-4 picks being huge for building depth and I worry a little that those picks on the whole might not work out for the Broncos, while agreeing that it's far too early to make a definitive conclusion.

In 2011 you have Moore/Franklin/Irving/Carter/Thomas in those slots and right now only Franklin looks like a sure win. Moore looks servicable, Irving couldn't unseat Mays or Brooking, not enough info on the others but Carter has shown a little. Again, too early to write any of them off. But how optimistic are you? If Moore doesn't improve measurably and Irving doesn't win the job this class starts to look highly suspect.

In 2012 you have Wolfe/Osweiler/Hillman/Bolden/Blake in those slots. Wolfe may be solid, Osweiler is a complete unknown, I'm not thrilled with what I've seen from Hillman but have hope, Bolden is underwhelming thus far, and not enough info on Blake. Even earlier to write any of these guys off. But again, my optimism isn't sky high. Couldn't you see both Hillman and Bolden not panning out? And if so, isn't this draft class also a bit flimsy? Before knowing what you have in Osweiler, of course, but the odds are against him as they are with all QBs.

I don't want to sound like a Debbie Downer here. I'm more being a contrarian than anything. I just see a lot of praise being heaped on the Elway FO and when in comes to the draft I don't think anyone should be anything more than cautiously optimistic.
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Old 04-29-2013, 03:37 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Inkana7 View Post
you really are bad at talent evaluation, aren't you
Yeah I'm sure the Broncos drafted a CB in the 3rd round to play behind Tony Carter. Get a clue.
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