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Old 04-09-2013, 01:45 PM   #126
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Why do you hate the 1st Amendment?
You are aware that the 1st amendment isn't absolute,for example you can't yell fire in a crowded movie theatre.
Is bribery covered by the 1st amendment?
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Old 04-09-2013, 01:47 PM   #127
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You JUST said that "we" control government. Now ten posts later you're saying corporations control it. Which is it, Peacepipe?
You misread it. What I was saying is corporations will decide who their CEO will be.
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Old 04-09-2013, 01:52 PM   #128
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You misread it. What I was saying is corporations will decide who their CEO will be.
Ahhh. Well to me the difference between a voter and a shareholder is negligible.
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Old 04-09-2013, 01:59 PM   #129
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You are aware that the 1st amendment isn't absolute,for example you can't yell fire in a crowded movie theatre.
Is bribery covered by the 1st amendment?
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Add the 2 bolded portions together = Citizens United case.

So why do YOU hate the 1st Amendment?

PS. His gripe about lobbying is covered in there too.
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:07 PM   #130
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In America? Absolutely. Is there a Malaria outbreak in the US? How many people do you know who get Malaria? Most of the outbreaks are on another continent. And only few a die each year. Not that those deaths aren't sad, but we're talking about first world versus third world. The US averages around 1500 malaria infections a year, most infected overseas, and zero die. Conversely, baldness affects 49 million Americans.

The US spends $1 Billion on baldness every year, though a good deal of that is on temporary fixes (wigs, spray on, etc.) I don't know how much is spent on malaria, but it's probably not much. But then we don't spend a lot of the black plague, leprosy or small pox. Why? Because they aren't a problem.

On the flip side, the 5 top killers in America are 1. Heart disease. 2. Cancer. 3. Chronic Respiratory disease. 4. Stroke and 5. Accidents. The US spends around 80 Billion on heart disease alone. Even more is spent on Cancer (it was harder for me to find exact numbers because they are broken down by the type but just lung, brain and blood cancer beat heart disease.)

So this kind of comment that makes socialists like you feel like it shows how broken capitalism is doesn't work when you really get down to it. I'm not going to sit here and say capitalism makes for perfect health care, but really, you can do better.

And personally if someone wants to shell out money for hair plugs, more power to them.
Tell me more about capitalism and health care.



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Old 04-09-2013, 02:11 PM   #131
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Why do you hate the 1st Amendment?
The more money you have, the more 1st amendment you get. Poor people get a tin-can-telephone 1st amendment, and the wealthy elite get a megaphone 1st amendment.





2012 was a Citizen's United beta-test. 2014 & 2016 you'll see a much more organized, tech-heavy effort.

Last edited by Blart; 04-09-2013 at 02:21 PM..
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:20 PM   #132
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Add the 2 bolded portions together = Citizens United case.

So why do YOU hate the 1st Amendment?

PS. His gripe about lobbying is covered in there too.
You must not be aware of all the free speech that is regulated everyday.
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:24 PM   #133
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Since when does spending on health care = greater life expectancy? That is exactly what is WRONG with health care in this country; wasting money on the symptoms.
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:25 PM   #134
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It's not even about free speech, it's about corporate personhood.

Should a foreign company (i.e. TransCanada) be able to heavily influence a U.S. Election? Citizen's United said yes, because corporations are people.

If you think special interests and lobbyists had a big influence before, prepare yourself for the next decade.
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:29 PM   #135
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Since when does spending on health care = greater life expectancy? That is exactly what is WRONG with health care in this country; wasting money on the symptoms.
Life expectancy is just about the worst 'measure' you could design for health care.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/201...fe-expectancy/

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Another point worth making is that people die for other reasons than health. For example, people die because of car accidents and violent crime. A few years back, Robert Ohsfeldt of Texas A&M and John Schneider of the University of Iowa asked the obvious question: what happens if you remove deaths from fatal injuries from the life expectancy tables? Among the 29 members of the OECD, the U.S. vaults from 19th place to…you guessed it…first. Japan, on the same adjustment, drops from first to ninth.
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:29 PM   #136
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Since when does spending on health care = greater life expectancy? That is exactly what is WRONG with health care in this country; wasting money on the symptoms.
Or perhaps for-profit healthcare is simply wasteful and inefficient.


Last edited by Blart; 04-09-2013 at 02:31 PM..
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:32 PM   #137
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You still haven't responded to a single one of my rebuttals, Blart. You've just gone into full LABF mode where you just ignore responses and put up something to change the subject. I'm not wasting my time with you.
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:33 PM   #138
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It's not even about free speech, it's about corporate personhood.
Just curious... What's the fundamental difference between a corporation and a union?
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:34 PM   #139
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Why do you hate the 1st Amendment?
Corporations aren't people and speech isn't money. Ask any five year old.

Last edited by Rohirrim; 04-09-2013 at 02:37 PM..
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:40 PM   #140
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Life expectancy is just about the worst 'measure' you could design for health care.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/201...fe-expectancy/
Thanks I was really curious what the plutocracy thought about one of the most profitable industries in the USA. Written by Avik Roy, another Koch sucker at the Manhatten Institute.


Anyway, to refute this shill's point:

Deaths from cancer, per 100,000 people



Annual consultations with doctors, per capita


Hospital beds, per 1,000 people



Health care spending as a percentage of gross domestic product
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:47 PM   #141
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Thanks I was really curious what the plutocracy thought about one of the most profitable industries in the USA. Written by Avik Roy, another Koch sucker at the Manhatten Institute.


Anyway, to refute this shill's point:

Deaths from cancer, per 100,000 people



Annual consultations with doctors, per capita


Hospital beds, per 1,000 people



Health care spending as a percentage of gross domestic product
Nice. Attack the source, then follow up with more meaningless crap. Death by Cancer? Not sure if you're aware but generally health care doesn't cause cancer.

If you want to compare based on cancer, you need to focus on survival rates, since that's all the health care system can do anything about.

http://www.webmd.com/cancer/news/200...ary-by-country

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Where you live plays a role in cancer survival, according to a new study that shows the U.S., Japan, and France recorded the highest survival rates among 31 nations for four types of cancer. Algeria had the lowest survival rates for all four cancers.

"This is the first direct comparison of so many countries as far as I am aware," says Michel Coleman, MD, a professor of epidemiology and vital statistics at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine and the study's lead author.

While Coleman and other epidemiologists have long known that cancer survival rates vary country by country, and even within a country, the study lends hard numbers to the fact. Still, there were surprises. "I think the surprises were that the range in global survival is really quite wide," Coleman tells WebMD.

"Survival in the USA is high on a global scale but varies quite widely among individual states as well as between blacks and whites within the USA," he tells WebMD.
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:52 PM   #142
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...al-stakes.html

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An American woman's chances of developing breast cancer are slightly higher than her British counterpart - but she is far more likely to survive.

One U.S. woman in eight can expect to have the disease at some point in her life, compared with one in nine in Britain.

But five-year survival rates for all forms of the disease - including the most advanced - stand at 85 per cent in the U.S and just under 74 per cent in the UK. If the cancer is caught early - at what doctors call stage 1 - the differences in survival are even more shocking.

An American woman has a 97 per cent chance of being alive five years after diagnosis.

In Britain, this figure is only 78 per cent.
But according to you, the UK's "Health Care" is better 'cuz more American women develop Breast Cancer. Cool story bro.
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Old 04-09-2013, 03:07 PM   #143
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Or perhaps for-profit healthcare is simply wasteful and inefficient.

Please….go live there...
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Old 04-09-2013, 03:12 PM   #144
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Please….go live there...
No thanks, I'll continue to advocate, donate & protest until we get it here.

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Nice. Attack the source, then follow up with more meaningless crap.

What's funny is that in their refutation they list "GDP per capita" as the most important statistic, something we've already discussed in this thread

Anyway, I'm not convinced, and the OECD isn't convinced. That's why they continue to use Life Expectancy as a measure of healthcare effectiveness.
http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/health/

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Recent OECD analysis suggests that health care spending growth has contributed to the improvement in life expectancy, but other determinants such as rising living standards, environmental improvements, lifestyle changes and education are also important drivers. Taken together, these explain much of the cross-country differences in life expectancy, as well as changes over time. Further progress in population health status and life expectancy can be achieved by putting greater emphasis on public health and disease prevention especially among disadvantaged groups, and improving the quality and performance of health care systems.
But I can see why you'd try to move the goal posts.

Last edited by Blart; 04-09-2013 at 03:21 PM..
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Old 04-09-2013, 03:33 PM   #145
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The more money you have, the more 1st amendment you get. Poor people get a tin-can-telephone 1st amendment, and the wealthy elite get a megaphone 1st amendment.

.

2012 was a Citizen's United beta-test. 2014 & 2016 you'll see a much more organized, tech-heavy effort.
That does nothing to address the Constitutionality of it.
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Old 04-09-2013, 03:36 PM   #146
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Corporations aren't people and speech isn't money. Ask any five year old.
Corporations are..... dun dun DUUUUUUUUUUN, people associating with each other people.

And the money part, well I guess the Supreme Court disagrees with you (I suspect that we'll also see the $ limit eliminated sometime soon).
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Old 04-09-2013, 04:21 PM   #147
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Corporations are..... dun dun DUUUUUUUUUUN, people associating with each other people.

And the money part, well I guess the Supreme Court disagrees with you (I suspect that we'll also see the $ limit eliminated sometime soon).
And they can all participate in the political process - AS INDIVIDUALS. After all, that's the foundational difference of America's take on liberty and what separates us from what came before - liberty is defined as the sacred territory of the individual.

As far as the SCOTUS goes, read these:

Dred Scott v Sandford
Plessy v Ferguson
Buck v Bell
Korematsu v US
Bush v Gore

They are far from perfect. BTW, the original court finding of corporate "personhood" in Santa Clara County v Southern Pacific Railroad didn't even exist. The court didn't deal with the issue of personhood in the case. A court clerk made an error in the headnote.

It's really odd that we would want to give corporations personhood, anyway. After all, corporations were invented to shield individuals from legal responsibility for their actions.

I've seen a whole lot of corporations in my time. They look like this:

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Old 04-09-2013, 04:56 PM   #148
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What's funny is that in their refutation they list "GDP per capita" as the most important statistic, something we've already discussed in this thread

Anyway, I'm not convinced, and the OECD isn't convinced. That's why they continue to use Life Expectancy as a measure of healthcare effectiveness.
http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/health/



But I can see why you'd try to move the goal posts.
Yes, it's clear that the best way to measure a health care system is to use numbers that reflect homicides. Because what good is a health care system if it can't fight crime?
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Old 04-09-2013, 04:57 PM   #149
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And they can all participate in the political process - AS INDIVIDUALS. After all, that's the foundational difference of America's take on liberty and what separates us from what came before - liberty is defined as the sacred territory of the individual.

As far as the SCOTUS goes, read these:

Dred Scott v Sandford
Plessy v Ferguson
Buck v Bell
Korematsu v US
Bush v Gore

They are far from perfect. BTW, the original court finding of corporate "personhood" in Santa Clara County v Southern Pacific Railroad didn't even exist. The court didn't deal with the issue of personhood in the case. A court clerk made an error in the headnote.

It's really odd that we would want to give corporations personhood, anyway. After all, corporations were invented to shield individuals from legal responsibility for their actions.

I've seen a whole lot of corporations in my time. They look like this:

So what you're saying is Unions shouldn't be allowed to make political contributions.


Last edited by BroncoBeavis; 04-09-2013 at 04:59 PM..
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:35 PM   #150
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Why is it Bush could do nothing right and you guys continue to give this idiot a free pass? Ever think the Democratic Congress both in the Senate and the House during Bush's tenure could have been responsible at all? Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi...remember every person deserved a house, issued credit to the folks who couldn't afford a house? NBC counted the dead every night on the world news, day blah blah blah of the conflict, Cindy Sheehan and protestors cried on television every night and yet Obama continued the wars, created more of his own, continues to take away liberties, has scandal after scandal everyone ignores and there is no outrage and folks like you are silent giving him the free pass? Is there anything, anything at all this guy can do that would cause you concern?
jef, GWB had massive GOP support in the House and Senate. Some of the most massive support for any President.

Like always, if Obama was a Republican you'd be screaming how great he is with the same policies. It's all partisan with most folks around here.
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