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Old 04-09-2013, 07:04 AM   #76
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Nah let them enjoy their economy and their socialist President, he hasn't done a thing for the good of this country and seems hell bent on destroying it. Liberals can't be happy unless everyone is miserable with them. It took Reagan 4 years to finally start turning around the mess Carter left us and roughly the same for Thatcher to recover the "progressive mess" in her country as well...I doubt we recover from this idiot. If people are still stupid enough to have those beliefs they aren't ever going to have a clue.
The downfall of America started with Reagan, just as the fall of England started with Thatcher. No matter how hard some ignorant ideologues stick their heads in the sand, the numbers don't lie.

All that Reagan and Thatcher did for their respective countries was to take the idea of "All for one, and one for all" and replace it with the idea that the purpose of labor was to lift the already wealthy to new heights of wealth by any means possible. Kind of like an international Downton Abbey. It's been tried many times before, and always with the same result. In the Robber Baron era of the 1890's critics called it the "Horse and Sparrows" economy, based on the idea that if you feed enough oats to the horse, he'll leave some in his droppings for the sparrows to pick out. Reagan/Thatcher called it "Supply Side Economics." Same thing. It was a shift of values, a shift into classes, like Romney, a direct descendant of Reagan/Thatcher was only too happy to point out. They replaced the pursuit of an equitable society with a celebration of greed. You can put this latest crash of the Wall Street casino directly on their doorsteps.

Last edited by Rohirrim; 04-09-2013 at 07:09 AM..
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Old 04-09-2013, 07:25 AM   #77
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That's such a stupid argument. So Reagan, with a Democrat controlled congress single handedly ruined the country and no one since has been able to fix it? Same with Thatcher, right?

"It's so broken not even a bunch of other liberals can fix it! It's broken forever!"





...or maybe it wasn't broken and socialism just doesn't work? Hmmmm.....
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Old 04-09-2013, 07:29 AM   #78
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Here's the Iron Lady ripping into socialism like a boss

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Old 04-09-2013, 07:38 AM   #79
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Here's the Iron Lady ripping into socialism like a boss

Apparently if you're a conservative, no matter how bad your policies are,as long as you say socialism sucks you're good.
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Old 04-09-2013, 07:38 AM   #80
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Here here.
See kids. Many of you are firmly in the Gaff camp. Repent before any point of no return.
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Old 04-09-2013, 07:41 AM   #81
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The downfall of America started with Reagan, just as the fall of England started with Thatcher. No matter how hard some ignorant ideologues stick their heads in the sand, the numbers don't lie.
I suppose you're here to tell us that 13% inflation was a dream come true.
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Old 04-09-2013, 07:46 AM   #82
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There's deep mourning in the streets of London.
http://photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/2...ons-party?lite
Alternate take:

Many on the left in the UK have no shame. Like most things, they need another lesson from Sir Winston on how it's done.

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The only guide to a man is his conscience; the only shield to his memory is the rectitude and sincerity of his actions. It is very imprudent to walk through life without this shield, because we are so often mocked by the failure of our hopes and the upsetting of our calculations; but with this shield, however the fates may play, we march always in the ranks of honor.
It fell to Neville Chamberlain in one of the supreme crises of the world to be contradicted by events, to be disappointed in his hopes, and to be deceived and cheated by a wicked man. But what were these hopes in which he was disappointed? What were these wishes in which he was frustrated? What was that faith that was abused? They were surely among the most noble and benevolent instincts of the human heart – the love of peace, the toil for peace, the strife for peace, the pursuit of peace, even at great peril, and certainly to the utter disdain of popularity or clamour. Whatever else history may or may not say about these terrible, tremendous years, we can be sure that Neville Chamberlain acted with most perfect sincerity according to his lights and strove to the utmost of his capacity and authority, which were powerful, to save the world from the awful devastating struggle in which we are now engaged….
Herr Hitler protests with frantic words and gestures that he has only desired peace. What do these ravings and outpouring count before the silence of Neville Chamberlain’s tomb?
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Old 04-09-2013, 07:56 AM   #83
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That's such a stupid argument. So Reagan, with a Democrat controlled congress single handedly ruined the country and no one since has been able to fix it? Same with Thatcher, right?

"It's so broken not even a bunch of other liberals can fix it! It's broken forever!"





...or maybe it wasn't broken and socialism just doesn't work? Hmmmm.....
Their "leadership" changed the direction of both countries, especially in economics. Remember Reagan's "welfare queens in Cadillacs?" They split the population into classes. Romney reflected the change in his "47%" comment. Why bother trying to have an equitable society when half the people are just lazy slobs on the dole, right? Greed is good. Greed brings good results. Those who are rich are inherently good. Those who are not are inherently lazy. They made it alright to be rapacious. They gave their blessing.

Like I said, the numbers don't lie. Since Reagan/Thatcher our laws, regulations and tax codes have heaved over in a sea change to benefit the already rich while wages have stagnated or sunk in real dollars. Meanwhile, productivity has gone up. It's been a grand rip-off for thirty years and their philosophical "leadership" led the way.
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Old 04-09-2013, 08:10 AM   #84
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Alternate take:

Many on the left in the UK have no shame. Like most things, they need another lesson from Sir Winston on how it's done.
You like quotes? Here's one of my favorites. It's from Teddy Roosevelt:

At many stages in the advance of humanity, this conflict between the men who possess more than they have earned and the men who have earned more than they possess is the central condition of progress. In our day it appears as the struggle of freemen to gain and hold the right of self-government as against the special interests, who twist the methods of free government into machinery for defeating the popular will. At every stage, and under all circumstances, the essence of the struggle is to equalize opportunity, destroy privilege, and give to the life and citizenship of every individual the highest possible value both to himself and to the commonwealth. That is nothing new.

Simply put, Reagan/Thatcher believed the opposite.
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Old 04-09-2013, 08:17 AM   #85
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Simply put, Reagan/Thatcher believed the opposite.
You're right. That is simply put. Not really true. But simple.
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Old 04-09-2013, 08:59 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Kaylore View Post
That's such a stupid argument. So Reagan, with a Democrat controlled congress single handedly ruined the country and no one since has been able to fix it? Same with Thatcher, right?

"It's so broken not even a bunch of other liberals can fix it! It's broken forever!"

...or maybe it wasn't broken and socialism just doesn't work? Hmmmm.....


The past 30 years of neoliberal capitalism are now socialist?

Just don't tell that to any Nordic countries, who have a higher GDP per capita than the USA, higher standard of living, higher happiness ratings, etc.

Last edited by Blart; 04-09-2013 at 09:21 AM..
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:03 AM   #87
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Maggie and Reagan took over in some stressful years. The bugaboo of Communist threat to world stability was real. Everybody was scared ****less about the USSR and their influence. Thatcher and Reagan laughed at them and broke the Iron Curtain. Those two had a lot of impact on world events, brought a new phase into geopolitics.
Reagan and Thatcher were great Anti-Soviet warriors, but you're forgetting about one of their most important allies!



http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...onnection.html
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:33 AM   #88
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So what? We allied with Stalin to shut down Hitler, and he was worse in many ways. By your logic, Blart, FDR and Churchill are traitors to be condemned for doing so.
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:36 AM   #89
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The past 30 years of neoliberal capitalism are now socialist?

Just don't tell that to any Nordic countries, who have a higher GDP per capita than the USA, higher standard of living, higher happiness ratings, etc.
Per capita GDP is a pretty useless measure. Usually an indicator of tiny populations wedded to large scale resource developement. Qatar leads the world in per capita GDP by most measures. Should they be the model?

Norway's another popular example among people who like to make that argument. But let's get serious. Less than 5 million people, yet the world's 3rd largest exporter of oil. They're some offshore drillin' MFers. Easily lead the world in Per Capita Offshore Oil Rigs.

Is that the model?

The most amazing thing to me is when progressives want to couple their pie-slice measuring dependence with agrarian utopianism. In most cases, you can only have one or the other.
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:39 AM   #90
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The left doesn't like that someone can have more than someone else. And they believe government is better at spending your money than you will ever be (I suppose spending it is one thing they are "better" at). They know better because they have "the people's interests" at heart.
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:55 AM   #91
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Per capita GDP is a pretty useless measure...
Interesting how you latched on to his comment about per capita GDP but ignored the rest of the information in that post. I wonder why? (Fyi, I don't really wonder why, because I know why...)
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:57 AM   #92
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The past 30 years of neoliberal capitalism are now socialist?

Just don't tell that to any Nordic countries, who have a higher GDP per capita than the USA, higher standard of living, higher happiness ratings, etc.
You should also add EDUCATION to the mix. A super power now with the higher test scores, with (bar far) fewer study hours and happy students. What a trifecta!

Interestingly enough in some parts of this region it's harder to get into teachers college than medical school. Me thinks that says something...
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:58 AM   #93
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She was right about most things. Wrong about some things. Some people loved her, some people hated her. She made an impact on history. Devolving into an argument about it seems counter productive to me. She did not care if people liked her. She did what she thought was the right thing, not the popular thing. A lesson for modern day politicians.

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Old 04-09-2013, 10:05 AM   #94
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:08 AM   #95
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Per capita GDP is a pretty useless measure. Usually an indicator of tiny populations wedded to large scale resource developement. Qatar leads the world in per capita GDP by most measures. Should they be the model?

Norway's another popular example among people who like to make that argument. But let's get serious. Less than 5 million people, yet the world's 3rd largest exporter of oil. They're some offshore drillin' MFers. Easily lead the world in Per Capita Offshore Oil Rigs.
bzzt wrong. Nordic countries don't rely on natural resources - their people make them strong.

"With very few natural resources, the mixed economy of Denmark relies almost entirely on human resources. Its industrialised market economy depends on imported raw materials and foreign trade."
http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tm...f_Denmark.html

The same can be said for Sweden. You might have an argument with Norway, but if they're following the same model as Sweden & Denmark then there's no worry when their oil runs out - they'll be on green energy by then anyway.

The welfare state has proven that when you put money into educating and caring for people, poverty sharply declines, and they become innovative and productive.

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The left doesn't like that someone can have more than someone else. And they believe government is better at spending your money than you will ever be (I suppose spending it is one thing they are "better" at). They know better because they have "the people's interests" at heart.
"Capitalism means male baldness research gets more funding than malaria" - Bill Gates

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Old 04-09-2013, 10:20 AM   #96
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Interesting how you latched on to his comment about per capita GDP but ignored the rest of the information in that post. I wonder why? (Fyi, I don't really wonder why, because I know why...)
Actually I'm pretty sure the graph wasn't added until later.
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:25 AM   #97
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^^ Sorry, I'm obsessive with edits
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:34 AM   #98
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Actually I'm pretty sure the graph wasn't added until later.
He edited at 12:21, you responded at 12:36. Although I suppose it's possible your response took 15 minutes to formulate...
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:35 AM   #99
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Interesting how you latched on to his comment about per capita GDP but ignored the rest of the information in that post. I wonder why? (Fyi, I don't really wonder why, because I know why...)
In reality it has more to do with range selection than anything. I could just as easily break it into the "Great Prosperity 1947-1975" and "The Great Regresssion 1976-Now" and the numbers wouldn't materially change. Then we could play Blame Jimmy instead. You can tell any story you like if you get to magically determine your own start and end points.

In reality, most things pale in comparison (economically) to the post-war period. That much should not surprise anyone. Yet that's the only thing really being established here.
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:38 AM   #100
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He edited at 12:21, you responded at 12:36. Although I suppose it's possible your response took 15 minutes to formulate...
Don't know what happened. Guessing I just didn't refresh the page before I hit the reply button.
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